Heretical Thoughts

[andy_k]

Personally, if I would be required to join a club in order to fly...think I'd pass, on flying. Anymore than I'd want it to be mandatory to belong to a "club" to ride the bike. Kind of like my freedom, if you know what I mean.

Yet you are (presumably) happy to accept that driving licences are fine, happy to pay for insurance on your house, life, belongings. Carry a passport etc etc etc

Joining a club doesn't mean that you are tied to flying with the club - it's more about educating people that are new to the hobby and (as far as I'm concerned) it's a lot better than some of the other options being served up around the world

 

[stones]

Yet you are (presumably) happy to accept that driving licences are fine, happy to pay for insurance on your house, life, belongings. Carry a passport etc etc etc

Joining a club doesn't mean that you are tied to flying with the club - it's more about educating people that are new to the hobby and (as far as I'm concerned) it's a lot better than some of the other options being served up around the world

Agreed. I guess when I see " mandatory" ... I cringe a little.

 

[Russ43Phantom]

One BIG difference between being a pilot of a manned aircraft and being a drone pilot is who gets hurt when an accident happens. If you are piloting an aircraft you are in, and your life depends on not having an accident, your attitude about safety is MUCH different. It seems to me that many drone pilots only feel that the worst thing that can happen to them is the loss of an expensive piece of equipment. Many, without some form of regulatory guidelines, have no idea or care about how their flying beyond their VLOS, over crowds, on above the 400' ceiling can seriously hurt another person. That's the issue.

 

[andy_k]

One BIG difference between being a pilot of a manned aircraft and being a drone pilot is who gets hurt when an accident happens. If you are piloting an aircraft you are in, and your life depends on not having an accident, your attitude about safety is MUCH different. It seems to me that many drone pilots only feel that the worst thing that can happen to them is the loss of an expensive piece of equipment. Many, without some form of regulatory guidelines, have no idea or care about how their flying beyond their VLOS, over crowds, on above the 400' ceiling can seriously hurt another person. That's the issue.

The problem for 'hobby flyers' stems from the historic point that all the rules grew out of common sense - sadly, that seems to be in short supply. YouTube and other social media platforms have provided a virtually unregulated race to the bottom where the chase for likes and advertising revenue over rules any common sense - if one person flies a mile high, then the next person needs to fly higher. If one person flies over a stadium then someone else will need to fly into the stadium. Until there is a lot more education regarding the use of these devices we are inevitably going to see more and more legislation - it may be unenforceable but it will lead to well publicised cases when someone does get caught just like with other law enforcement. Make an example of the few to deter the many.

At some point the authorities in every country (it's happened here in the UK a few times already) are going to wake up to YouTube not being a place for light entertainment but a place where the evidence for the prosecution is gathered

 

[anotherlab]

DJI can own a bit of the blame for irresponsible flying videos showing up on YouTube. Casey Neistat used to be pretty irresponsible with his drone flying and DJI kept giving him drones to try out. If you fly anywhere where it looks like you violated the laws in you jurisdiction, you would be nuts to post that video to YouTube.

 

[andy_k]

DJI can own a bit of the blame for irresponsible flying videos showing up on YouTube. Casey Neistat used to be pretty irresponsible with his drone flying and DJI kept giving him drones to try out. If you fly anywhere where it looks like you violated the laws in you jurisdiction, you would be nuts to post that video to YouTube.

you'd think so wouldn't you

 

[John Decker]

The majority, if not all RC pilots build their own aircraft. The majority of licensed pilots have never built a single airplane.

You're usually big on insisting other people prove their statements, yet saying the majority, if not all, of rc pilots build their own aircraft seems ludicrous, given the ready-to-fly nature of so many rc craft.. or do you not count drones as rc?
Your proof, please.

 

[andy_k]

You're usually big on insisting other people prove their statements, yet saying the majority, if not all, of rc pilots build their own aircraft seems ludicrous, given the ready-to-fly nature of so many rc craft.. or do you not count drones as rc?
Your proof, please.

I would say that based on my experience, most RC flyers build their own craft despite the large number of RTF models - our local club has a pretty broad cross section but kit/self builds are in the majority

 

[anotherlab]

You're usually big on insisting other people prove their statements, yet saying the majority, if not all, of rc pilots build their own aircraft seems ludicrous, given the ready-to-fly nature of so many rc craft.. or do you not count drones as rc?
Your proof, please.

I think in this context, he was referring to fixed wing aircraft, not quadcopters. My first hand experience around fixed wing RC is limited, but it it looked the vast majority built their own. Landing is lot trickier than with Phantoms. You need to be able to rebuild them more often.

 

[N017RW]

Correct a-lab, that was the context and it was a bit tongue-cheek fun I was having with another poster.
Many don't appear to me to follow a thread before posting but rather the last few posts.
My calls for sources are mostly of more technical or substantial claims of which I'm reasonably confident of the correct answer but looking to be set straight if it turns out such.
Mr Decker's first sentence seems to tell his motive here so I found the post a provocation.

 

[John Decker]

Correct a-lab, that was the context and it was a bit tongue-cheek fun I was having with another poster.
Many don't appear to me to follow a thread before posting but rather the last few posts.
My calls for sources are mostly of more technical or substantial claims of which I'm reasonably confident of the correct answer but looking to be set straight if it turns out such.
Mr Decker's first sentence seems to tell his motive here so I found the post a provocation.

Nope, not a provocation, I just thought that if you are including drones then you were way off base.
However, fixed wing is another matter - I spent more time rebuilding my gliders than flying them.

 

[N017RW]

Fair enough, If you read the quote again it's actually a comparison of r/c vs full-scale pilots based on Soundbyte's post #17 which is quoted above the post of mine. Mostly TnC.

 

[John Decker]

Fair enough, If you read the quote again it's actually a comparison of r/c vs full-scale pilots based on Soundbyte's post #17 which is quoted above the post of mine. Mostly TnC.

I read it but didn't factor in artistic licence!
What's TnC?

 

[Bakersfield Quad]

Pilot's fly from inside aircraft, operators fly aircraft through remote control or other means. Pilots are at risk, operators are not, pilots have legal powers of command, that operators do not.
Look, it is great that a person learns to fly an RC craft, fun recreation, inexpensive and with FPV you get a lot of the look of flying, but none of the feel, g-forces, turbulence, lift, sink, all are a part of the physical act of flying, that cannot be experienced or learned. So, let's not argue or worry about whether you are called a UAV operator, drone pilot or whatever, but don't think that flying a Quad is anything like flying a real AC or that any certificate issued is a Pilot's Certificate.

 

[Bakersfield Quad]

Just to make it clear what I am trying to explain.
A friend flew simulators all the time on his computer, he was pretty good at it.
He was convinced that he could readily fly an aircraft, he could fly anything in the simulators.
I invited him to come fly with me, I promised to give him a shot.
He wanted to take off, but I declined the offer. I flew across the valley to an area that is normally low traffic, put the Cherokee at 3,500 feet and trimmed it.
"It's all yours!" I told him, he took the controls in the right seat.
I smiled as he wandered, dipped and was generally tossed around by thermal turbulence.
He struggled for about 5 minutes to hold a hearing, but never could. I took back the controls and the plane smoothed out, held the heading and altitude.
He couldn't understand why he could not control it. I explained that simulators, like most people fly, cannot prepare you for actual flight, air is not smooth or predictable, it is like an angry sea at times.
He went on to get his pilot's certificate, but he quit flying simulators.
Flying a Phantom is very much like a simulator, i have flown many. The simulator DJI provides us very similar to flying the real Phantom.

 

[N017RW]

Pilot's fly from inside aircraft, operators fly aircraft through remote control or other means. Pilots are at risk, operators are not, pilots have legal powers of command, that operators do not.
Look, it is great that a person learns to fly an RC craft, fun recreation, inexpensive and with FPV you get a lot of the look of flying, but none of the feel, g-forces, turbulence, lift, sink, all are a part of the physical act of flying, that cannot be experienced or learned. So, let's not argue or worry about whether you are called a UAV operator, drone pilot or whatever, but don't think that flying a Quad is anything like flying a real AC or that any certificate issued is a Pilot's Certificate.

Nice.

Also flying a DJI , or many, MRs is nearly nothing like flying a typical 4-channel r/c plane either.

I'd say most noticeably is no stop-n-hover in a panic or fatigue, no stabilized attitude, and no RTH.

No auto take-off and landing. Once you start a run-up and take-off you're committed to command a landing.

 

[Bakersfield Quad]

Nice.

Also flying a DJI , or many, MRs is nearly nothing like flying a typical 4-channel r/c plane either.

I'd say most noticeably is no stop-n-hover in a panic or fatigue, no stabilized attitude, and no RTH.

No auto take-off and landing. Once you start a run-up and take-off you're committed to command a landing.

Agreed, flew a lot if fixed wing RC.

 

[MPPilot]

I'm a pilot AND a UAV operator so I'm expecting flack from BOTH SIDES!

Normalizing UAVs as “aircraft” attributes a false sense of equivalency, so rules and procedures applied to UAVs become distorted in order to fit into existing norms and procedures.​

UAVs are substantially different from manned aircraft.
Any aircraft can be made into a UAV but a 25kg UAV cannot be manned. We are not talking about military drones here. We are trying to regulate small airborne sensors (largely cameras) or small-packet delivery systems.

UAVs are not “Flown” but rather their auto-pilot is “directed” by an operator.
Several on-board computers are managing controllers that do the actual flying.


There are no “Pilots” on board. There are only “Operators” on the ground.
UAV Operators may think of themselves as pilots but they are at best . .
“skilled operators of an airborne auto-pilot.”

The aviation community should acknowledge that, and so should the UAV community.

No need to diminish an operator’s skills, knowledge or abilities but let’s acknowledge the reality of what is going on and govern them accordingly. Rather than have the new rules driven by existing aviation thinking. Let’s THINK DIFFERENT and regulate UAVs and their operating environment with more CRITICAL THINKING right from the start.

I have no issues with anything you had to say. "Pilot", in my view, carries a higher level of responsibility for their craft whether piloting aircraft or sea vessels. Pilot does not connotate flying only, but a proven level of knowledge and ability to control a craft. I agree that we control and direct the quads to do our bidding. If anyone in the RC quad world deserves the title of "Pilot" it would be the free style and racing quads that have none of the auto-controls we are use to with DJI quads. Those guys control every aspect of their flights. But I digress. Good post.

 

[TheFlyingLysan]

Staying on the ground equals operator, flying with the aircraft equals pilot. I can only agree with that.

 

[42FrankZ]

pilot (noun) - A person who operates the flying controls of an aircraft.
aircraft (noun) - An aeroplane, helicopter, or other machine capable of flight.

Old Oxford.

We are pilots. One does not need to be a licensed pilot to be a pilot. One does not have to have ones feet off the ground to be a pilot. One does not have to have their very life at stake to be a pilot.

And yes, I know Oxford spell airplane funny, they do that at times.