DJI Mandatory, uninterruptible actions are wrong, legally actionable
- Thread starter Drestin Black
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At one point DJI mentioned that TFR (not to be confused with NFZ) will be "Live". My guess is a database would be accessed (assuming your had Wifi/Cellular enabled on your device) during initialization.
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I think the advantages far out way the inconveniences. If you compare all the prevented "runaways" , crashes, and the many other bad things that the technology has kept from happening, I'll take the occasional "Loss of Control" any day.It's much cheaper and safer.
That and the previous answer are comforting. And make sense. Mind you, there must be a tiny chance that you are in a dodgy cell phone reception area and your device regains reception just as you're in the middle of a new TFR. You're probably more likely to win the lottery though.
I would agree with you if the choice had to be black and white - one or the other.
It doesn't.
They can continue to provide all of the automated safety features they do today AND add the ability for a pilot to intentionally override that automation in an emergency situation that the automation is making worse.
I would agree that DJI should be at least partially responsible (and liable) for any negative outcome that occurs from the moment that they lock-out the pilot and take away his ability to try and avoid the danger. Furthermore - if a "post-mortem" review of the incident is able to identify ANY set of actions a pilot in control could have taken to avoid - or lessen the severity - of the incident, then DJI should be considered "pilot in command" and fully liable for any negative outcome.
They have seized control from the pilot because they think they know better. The pilots liability should end at the point that DJI locks out their control. In this case - the human pilot would be liable for a rule violation of flying in an NFZ. If the auto-landing on the freeway had resulted in a crash, or an injury to a person - that would clearly be DJI's fault and they should be liable and held responsible for the decision to auto-land in that location. It would clearly be pilot error - and at that point during the flight - DJI is the pilot.
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Dear DJI,
I have a couple of Phantom P4s and I love them; fly them daily as a hobbyist and am working towards becoming a FAA licensed UAS pilot. You have a great product, hardware and software. Kudos!
An incident today and the hours since has given me time to reflect and come to a conclusion that I wanted to openly discuss before it becomes an issue you address in court as I feel some day you will.
UAS (drones) are being treated as serious devices by the FAA now. These are not toys anymore, we have legal obligations and can suffer real and serious fines and penalties for violating them. Not just No Fly Zones, but obligations regarding maximum altitude, VLOS requirements, day time flying rules, etc. The most important take away from this paragraph is that we are now in the realm of regulated legal equipment and their pilots. When your hardware/software, that we MUST use in order to fly the device we purchased from you, FORCES us to break a law or travel in an unsafe way then we are FORCED to address this with you. Hopefully we can fix this in an open discussion before it becomes one where an attorney says, My client isn't at fault, his equipment MADE him do this, he had NO choice/control whatsoever.
ANYONE today can jump into ANY helicopter and airplane and take off ANYWHERE at ANYTIME and can fly ANYWHERE at ANY altitude ANY speed. Now, ALL of these things are regulated, there are laws that tell us what we cannot do, but we can physically do them (right or wrong is a legal issue). So, there are LAWS that prevent us from doing some of these things or combinations of things. In a regular airplane or helicopter, we must obey No Fly Zones and other Flight Restrictions, but it's up to the pilot to actually obey them. UAS pilots are learning about these things now with the classes and tests for UAS licenses. And we are expected to obey them, just as any other pilot. However; let's be clear; TONIGHT I can go jump in my buddys airplane, not bother calling the tower, taxi and just take off right into other air traffic and point my nose at the White House and go flying over it. What's going to happen is I'll be noticed and someone will try to contact me. Likely I'll be intercepted. Certainly I'll be "talked to", perhaps prosecuted, perhaps go to jail and pay big fines. Etc Etc Etc. You know who does all that? The FAA and other police agencies. You know who does NOT do that? DJI or Cessna or Boeing or any other hardware or software maker.
On sophisticated aircraft there are warning devices and computers, they tell you if you are going to stall, if your fuel is low, if your flying too fast or slow or too high or low, if your gear is stuck down or up, if there are issues with other electronics aboard. You can be told that your gas tank has less than 1/8th gallon left as you take off for a transoceanic flight. Your GPS and compass can say it's not working as you barrel down the runway and you pull up into the wild blue yonder.
WHILE you are flying - you computer systems can tell you; "Hey, we are nearly out of fuel." and"HEY, We are REALLY low on fuel!" They can say, "GPS says we are in a no fly zone. or "HEY We Just Crossed Into An The Pentagons restricted air space!"
Here is what NO aircraft or helicopter will do: It will NOT TAKE CONTROL away and FORCE the vehicle to do something that you can do nothing but watch in horror as it occurs.
Imagine we got a 747 super low on fuel coming in to land at Chicago and Oh Oh, it's at 1% fuel remaining - so the auto pilot kicks in an Automatically Starts Landing in the middle of a school yard or into a football stadium or into the lake or into a fuel refinery or nuke plant. Or you are flying your helicopter and suddenly the GPS and Computer aboard announce, "You have just entered a no fly zone" - AND IMMEDIATELY just stop, hover, then begin to land on top of a large playground filled with children, or it immediately starts to land in the middle of a lake. And You Can DO NOTHING about it but sit there and die, possibly to you and your passengers own screaming deaths! And if you should survive then the FAA comes to kick your *** you'll be saying, "I didn't do it, the plane/helicopter just did it all by itself!"
Some might be saying, "You did something wrong." Perhaps; but you are not the judge or jury. And, what about emergencies? In an emergency you can land in NFZs, in an emergency you can go to whatever altitude you need. What if this is a genuine emergency - Oh No, I struck a bird and one engine is out I'm declaring an emergency landing at the nearest airport, Oh No that is a NFZ and I can't authorize GEO because no cell service DOWN DOWN DOWN you go and right into the path of another plane or crash landing on a freeway or top of some building or into a crowd of people.
My Point - Yes, We WANT and LOVE your automatic features. When I lose connection and you auto return me home - dude, awesome! But when it's partially back and I regain control, you let me resume flight. Cool
However, When the battery hits critical low you force me to land (except the small "trick" of keeping altitude by forcing the left stick up ... what if I NEED to go up and over a small obstacle before I make a 100% safe landing? Just like a plane pilot who's "Flying on Fumes, the gauge says empty but she's still flying so go baby go please! In DJI land, "Sorry, our sensor reads X%, down you go" and despite the fact that the craft is still flying , you force us down potentially damaging or destroying our craft and maybe hurting others or breaking the law. This is wrong.
Tonight - I took off in a familiar area and flew a familiar path. The familiar warning to call the helipad near me came up and I self-authorized because I had already called them, we know each other by nowFlying and doing just fine, all is well ---- then suddenly, "You Have Entered a No-fly Zone. Landing Now..."
Let's forget the "What NFZ?!" No time for that. I am a pilot and I am in charge of my craft. I have a fully flight capable craft and I am in contact with it, visually and electronically and it's working just fine. I've hit an invisible wall - right or wrong -- and being told I must not legally go further. Ok Ok I hear you and I have EVERY intention of NOT breaking the law and I'm perfectly happy to stop, and leave, hell, I'll even be happy to do a Return to Home. What I am NOT OK with is: And she just hovers then starts to drop. Gimbal downwards, AWESOME I'm coming down into a tree edged active roadway.
Here I watch helplessly as I go from legal to legally warned to screw-you-pilot, you going down and breakin' laws! Miraculously I do not hit a branch and she lands perfectly in the middle of the left lane. And I gimbal upwards to watch a car come right for her. Braking hard it doesn't hit. I'm already heading to my car with my partner and he drives as I'm watching on the screen someone stopping traffic, grabbing the drone and jumping in their car with it (lost signal). There are cars all around, whipping past him. He was endangered, they were endangered, my vehicle was endangered.
I get to the place and pull up just to survey the area. There is a car pulled over on the shoulder idling. I get out of my car and a dad and his son get out. And there's my drone. There are good people. They returned it to me. The father reporting he "practically had a heart attack" because it "practically landed on my roof" and then I was nearly rear-ended. I gave them all the cash I had as a reward and thanked them profusely.
DJI - YOU are at primarily fault here, not me. I didn't do anything wrong (to this moment I cannot find this NFZ on any map or app I have, starting with the official B4UFLY app and FAA websites but that's not the point of this message). It doesn't matter if I DID violate a NFZ and if I was technically therefore wrong and breaking a rule. I'll suffer that punishment if charged, that's my problem and my issues, not yours. YOU need to build good hardware and software that lets your craft fly properly and as much safety built in - BUT you cannot take control away from us when we need it, arguably, the most! TRY to imagine the scenarios I described above and you being Boeing or Cessna.
Any real world aircraft pilots: What if your aircraft just took over control and you could do NOTHING as it crashed into the ground? Think that flight system would be around long? Would the FAA even allow it to fly?
I think that DJI is WRONG, and I think they are even going to find themselves on the wrong end of a lawsuit soon enough, in having software that takes over control in a manner that cannot be overridden. Yes, put in your automatic features if you'd like but in ALL, repeat *ALL* cases, you MUST allow pilot overrides. We are the captain of our ships, what WE say goes when we're flying, NOT you. We are real pilots now with real law and penalties and therefore WE must ultimately be in FULL charge of our craft.
Summary and to repeat for full impact: DJI, The Pilot is Always in charge of his craft, completely and utterly. We MUST be able to override ANY automatic function. Period. I believe my desire is something you'll find legally necessary to protect yourselves and to protect our equipment and the public we fly over/around.
Sincerely,
db
This was well said DB!!!
Whether you pro or against it. Buy&fly is what technology advances all about. We buy a ticket when we fly to new York from London. do we brother to read the regulations?
Now, you can get into an uber car in certain us city, the car will take you to your destination without a driver. Is there a new set of regulations for the buyer , I mean passenger.
I think drone should head to the same trend. I know it is far from there yet but with time and innovations, I think it will get there. I just hope the lawyers don't kill it by over regulations.
When i read this post my first thought was Why did you fly over a populated area to begin with, first i'm not from these parts but in a nutshell flying over a population centre basically puts you in the wrong to being with. Yes we do it all the time and yes it doesn't make it right. Forget the fact that you might be flying over a field of "Babies" but anywhere you fly where people live basically sets you up for a potential "FAIL" Rotor failure, Motor Failure, ESC, failure, interference,etc, etc simply hitting something can turn your Drone into a missile hurtling towards the ground.
In the end It's Not DJI's fault that you pointed your drone towards a field / School full of Babies, that was you my friend !
DJI gives us a **** ton of freedom. you just want all the safeties off !
LOL i enjoy reading these post and laugh at posts like this !
JOLLI
In the end It's Not DJI's fault that you pointed your drone towards a field / School full of Babies, that was you my friend !
DJI gives us a **** ton of freedom. you just want all the safeties off !
LOL i enjoy reading these post and laugh at posts like this !
JOLLI
I suppose I should sell now since I live in an urban area and there is always someone on the ground somewhere.
If you can't find a place to fly it safely and legally than yes, you should sell it.
If you think that a mere fact that you possess something gives you the right to use it anywhere you like, I hope that you don't own a gun.
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Actually I own several guns. I am responsible. But you keep being judgey and smug. Hope it never turns around to bite you in the face.
And I am not selling my drone, and I will keep flying it in an urban environment.
LMFAO I love reading posts like this. You entirely missed the point!!
It's DJIs action of FORCING an uncontrolled mandatory auto landing in the blind that turns a perfectly flight worthy craft being flown by a human pilot into a truly unmanned missile with four whirling blades of death into the ground.
I'm not arguing for removal NFZs or safety, I'm asking for increased safety and control!! DJI cannot and isn't the party in charge of ensuring varying laws are followed, their job is to present a device as safe as possible.
If it bites me, be assured that I will not be looking for somebody else to blame.
Glad to know that you are responsible. That means, among other things, you will not be flying your drone over people or busy highways.
So, very single pilot of every airline jet, helicopter, or ballon is irresponsible? They all fly over people, highways, you name it.
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Do you really think that your drone is built to the same standards and as reliable as these airships? Do you think that a drone flier is subjected to the same training, requirements and scrutiny as these pilots? Do you think that the drone flying is subjected to the same regulations? Get real; other than being able to get into the air and interfere with general aviation hence being regulated by the same authority, your drone has as much common with real aircraft as your fishing boat has with a nuclear submarine.
Yet we must register as pilots, follow the exact same FAA regulations, face punishment same as those pilots
So, we are treated the same as mega pilots but because our craft is such a toy we don't get the same respect,,, oh with its not a toy because you really think our 8 lb toy is as potentially devastating as a multi ton airplane? If I flew my drone j to the World Trade Center I don't think it would break a window, but the same NFZ, TFR and all rules still apply to me and breaking them gives me the same punishment as the bug guys. See the disparity?
As you say yourself, do you really think our little toy is the same as the big craft? No? Ok, then we should have relaxed rules and regs and punishment.
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Oh, and In my time I've flown in airplanes that I consider built to far less exacting levels of craftmanship and flight performance as my P4!
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Man, all, I keep saying is, if you expect us to play by the same rules we should have the same abilities. A pilot must always gave full control over his craft. Period. No machine can decide better than I how to act in a low battery condition or upon nearing or entering a NFZ; and an unstoppable auto landing is a safety risk every pilot should find irresponsible and unacceptable.
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Can you not find a way to participate in this conversation without being judgey and smug? Do you own a car? Have you ever exceeded the speed limit? Or made a right turn on a red light without coming to a FULL stop first? Flying across a roadway while traversing from one large, empty acreage to another is roughly the same thing. Everyone here know what the rules are.
Regardless of whether or not the OP was following all of the rules or not - he has identified a situation in which the status quo can itself cause a potential incident to become an actual incident - and he has also suggested a way to improve things so that some if those incidents can be avoided.
This thread isn't about whether the OP was right or wrong and following all of the rules. It's about whether or not DJI should take away the pilots control of a device when the pilot still has control of the device. Clearly there are dangerous situations that could occur - in which a live pilot with control of the drone could resolve safely - but DJI is removing that control with no way to give it pack - effectively turning a "potentially dangerous situation" into an actual "unfortunate incident".
Each one of us may have our own opinions as to whether allowing a pilot to override DJI's "safety features" is necessary or not - but I don't see how any of us can argue that they should not provide the capability. What logic could someone use to argue that once DJI decides it's time to Auto-Land, the decision should be final and the pilot should NOT be able to override that decision and take back control?
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I agree that there should be a way for the pilot to regain control - but I think that should be an add-on to the current model where DJI initiates the auto-landing because of low-battery or entering an NFZ. There are plenty of situations where THAT action IS the safest thing to do.
Your wording states that the "pilot must always have full control" which makes it seem like you want the current safety features to be removed. Can you elaborate? Is that true? Or are you asking for a way to "take back" control in cases where you think you have chance to prevent something bad from happening?
No matter what DJI decides to do about giving back control - the feature could certainly be made MUCH safer and smarter. Here are some suggestions:
(4,5 and 6 are pretty ambitious - but 1,2 and 3 are fairly easy to accomplish and should have been done before now!)
1. Using GPS, determine whether or not the drone is directly overtop of a highway. If so, auto navigate to the side of the road before auto-landing.
2. Same thing about being over a lake or stream. Determine if there is enough battery to make it to the shore and land there. (it could only be 6-10 feet away)
3. Use the camera and try to detect movement in the landing area. If there IS movement, attempt to navigate a few feet away to an area with less movement.
4. For each NFZ, scout out in advance a "safe" place on all borders of the NFZ in which a landing could be forced without harm.
5. Launch a global, crowd-sourced database where pilots - or anyone for that matter - can provide "safe" co-ordinates of spots, zones or regions in which auto-landings are safe. Before takeoff, a drone could download a list of all "emergency landing spots within range (in case it turns out one Is necessary).
7. Create a global database of zones, areas and regions where auto-landings are prohibited no matter what. For example, roadways, houses, buildings, schoolyards, playgrounds, lakes, streams, rivers, etc. DJI Go can transfer the list of "NLZs" (No Land Zones) to the drone for a 7mi radius as soon as GPS is locked in.
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