DJI Mandatory, uninterruptible actions are wrong, legally actionable

[Drestin Black]

You can corner case all you like. Won't help. DJI is quite within their rights to limit functionality when they feel safety is compromised. They are not obligated to be right 100% of the time. They're not Space Shuttles.

About the only thing I can believe DJI would be legally liable for (and this is a stretch ) is to refund the price (or part of it) in the event that you could successfully argue that any new limitations fundamentally changed the value of the device. Goodluckwiththat.

I respectfully disagree. Been following this up with a product liability attorney who's seeing something here.
In fact, they ARE compromising safety. Here's a really basic, dumb scenario;

You are flying around and unknowingly stray into a NFZ (according to DJI) - it's not on the FAA sites/maps or the apps. Perhaps a bug, who knows. But, suddenly: Landing Now. And right below you; a school yard filled with babies and here comes your four whirling blades of death right down into them. YOU didn't land there, the drone took over from you and did and gave you no recourse.

Try this analogy, if you prefer: You are driving your car and hit 1% gas left, plenty to travel several more miles effortlessly. However; the car, in the middle of wherever it is, just puts on the brakes then turns off the motor. You can't steer, brake or accelerate, or restart once it's off. There you sit until you can refill the tank. Do you think the courts would let Ford or Toyota get away with that?

 

[42FrankZ]

You are flying around and unknowingly stray into a NFZ (according to DJI) - it's not on the FAA sites/maps or the apps. Perhaps a bug, who knows. But, suddenly: Landing Now. And right below you; a school yard filled with babies and here comes your four whirling blades of death right down into them. YOU didn't land there, the drone took over from you and did and gave you no recourse.

Why were you flying over a field of babies to start with? You had the choice to not put your aircraft over them.

 

[BigAl07]

I respectfully disagree. Been following this up with a product liability attorney who's seeing something here.

That's where you went down hill . . . be careful... lay with the dogs you're gonna get fleas.

 

[Multicoptertec]

Without digging up the literature, it is my understanding that if you are already in a NFZ, you can't take off, but as you approach one, you get a warning, and there is a gradient where you are allowed less and less altitude. Not sure why your bird would "auto land" with no warning at all.

 

[Drestin Black]

Why were you flying over a field of babies to start with? You had the choice to not put your aircraft over them.

Sigh ..: way to be distracted from the point.

Ok you are flying over the water, the shore is just 20 feet away. It forces you to auto land and you lose your craft. You could have just eased her over and landed safely but instead drowned.

The point is that as pilot you are in charge of your craft from take off to landing -- except here DJI can take over and force you down.

How many scenarios so I have to make up for the point to be understood / is it really that difficult. No other FAA regulated air system is like this nor
Would it be. Dji is out of alignment.

I don't say get rid of NFZs and restricted take off and warnings; etc. those are safe. What is unsafe is a piece of software taking over for a human pilot without warning and without the ability to override. Unacceptable.

And back to our field of babies? WHO CARES why? Right or wrong doesn't matter. Wanna fine me and take my license away for it? OK ... But I didn't plunge the craft down into them, the software did and the pilot was left unable to prevent this disaster. You fo explain to the parents, well, he is a jerk he was wrong -- sure sure he didn't actually fly poorly or crash himself but let's blame him and not what actually did the crashing.

There must be the ability to override any automagic landings, period.


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[Drestin Black]

Without digging up the literature, it is my understanding that if you are already in a NFZ, you can't take off, but as you approach one, you get a warning, and there is a gradient where you are allowed less and less altitude. Not sure why your bird would "auto land" with no warning at all.

When the software THINKS (it could be wrong) you have entered a no fly zone - your craft will immediately land no matter what or where and you can't do anything about it.


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[Multicoptertec]

When the software THINKS (it could be wrong) you have entered a no fly zone - your craft will immediately land no matter what or where and you can't do anything about it.


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I suggest you read your aircraft manual regarding no fly zones, and your aircraft's behavior in or near them.

 

[tcope]

Imagine you are in your car and the fuel gauge suddenly reads "E" -- Imagine that right then and there, no matter where you are or what you are doing, the car immediately comes to a stop and turns the motor off and you have zero control the entire time. Meanwhile the engine was running just fine on "empty"

First, if you are flying far away from where you are and hit 10% battery, you've already screwed up. Second, if you run out of fuel in a vehicle you can still steer and break. You can do this with the Phantom as you mentioned. The difference is if you run out of fuel in a car you can't fall out of the sky and cause damage or injury. You think allowing the person to continue to fly as they want until the Phantom stops working and then becomes a missile is a better plan? Now you don't have a problem with a company that allows their product to become a falling missile? Which sounds better, a falling missile or a controlled decent?

You did have control over the decent. You stated this yourself. You did not have the ability to keep flying as you normally would.

Let me say again when it comes to low battery.... you were shown on the bar graph when you needed to fly home based on distance and battery. You were warned at 30% that battery was low. These are your warnings from DJI that you seem to want. You still have 100% control as you want. Now, someone ignores these warnings and there is a _good_ change the Phantom will loose power and fall out of the sky with no control. You think this is better then a controlled landing? I'm not seeing it. The pilot has already ignored the two warnings given in order to stay in full control. At this point DJI is attempting to stop the Phantom from becoming a falling missile.

I think DJI's current set up is 100% spot on.

 

[N017RW]

I could never understand the comparison of cars, FS aircraft, or other vehicles to a consumer-grade Chinese toy flying camera.

 

[42FrankZ]

Sigh ..: way to be distracted from the point.

Don't sigh like that. It comes across as condescending. I was only following your lead on this, so if I was distracted it was because you wanted to make a point that now you want to reverse on.

Ok you are flying over the water, the shore is just 20 feet away. It forces you to auto land and you lose your craft. You could have just eased her over and landed safely but instead drowned.

Push up. That should help you hold altitude. But if you are there you already messed up if you are in a NFZ.

The point is that as pilot you are in charge of your craft from take off to landing -- except here DJI can take over and force you down.

Yes they can. If you fly into a NFZ you endanger human flight. Your flight is less important.

If you run out of battery and you aren't where you wanted to be you screwed up. You weren't really in full control of your aircraft.

How many scenarios so I have to make up for the point to be understood / is it really that difficult. No other FAA regulated air system is like this nor
Would it be. Dji is out of alignment.

As many as you can think of. The point is, bugs in the system notwithstanding, if you are in a NFZ (or a altitude restricted area) and DJI forces you to lower altitude or land you weren't in proper control of your aircraft. You keep pointing out a manned flight wouldn't be but you aren't flying a manned flight. You can cause a lot of harm if you are in the wrong spot and you aren't in harms way yourself.

And if a manned aircraft screws up it usually shows up on radar, and can be tracked and the pilot dealt with. Your drone brings down a plane full of babies from a mile away and you just slip away.


I don't say get rid of NFZs and restricted take off and warnings; etc. those are safe. What is unsafe is a piece of software taking over for a human pilot without warning and without the ability to override. Unacceptable.

And back to our field of babies? WHO CARES why? Right or wrong doesn't matter. Wanna fine me and take my license away for it? OK ... But I didn't plunge the craft down into them, the software did and the pilot was left unable to prevent this disaster. You fo explain to the parents, well, he is a jerk he was wrong -- sure sure he didn't actually fly poorly or crash himself but let's blame him and not what actually did the crashing.


You cared enough to make the point.

There must be the ability to override any automagic landings, period.


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[WilsonFlyer]

All flying should be always and forever in the total control of the PIC. All of this geo-fencing and artificial attempts at ceiling restrictions are an attempt to limit their own liability in a given situation. If you don't have enough sense to be a PIC of your multi, you shouldn't be flying and shouldn't own one.

You can't put a breathalyzer in my car because someone else decides to drive drunk.

 

[TheLightSpeedz]

And just as soon as I find a decent multi without this restriction, I'm selling out ALL of my DJI stuff which includes a P3P, a P4 and an Inspire. I'm praying GoPro Karma is it. It's looking like it just might be.

Commies in my drones are going to be commies in somebody else's drones and real soon I hope. It's the singular thing I detest about my DJI products and I hate it enough to sell everything I've got (and will).

How much for the inspire? I seriously want one!


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[tcope]

You are flying around and unknowingly stray into a NFZ (according to DJI) - it's not on the FAA sites/maps or the apps. Perhaps a bug, who knows. But, suddenly: Landing Now. And right below you; a school yard filled with babies and here comes your four whirling blades of death right down into them. YOU didn't land there, the drone took over from you and did and gave you no recourse.

Yes, if there is a school yard of babies laying outside next to a NFZ, the drone operator does not correct the downward flight and it happens to hot a baby, then I'd see that DJI may have an issue.

However, the NFZ are not laid out as you mentioned. You need to be within 1.5 miles of the airport for any change in flight. In the meantime... and you've confirmed this... you confirmed certain information in order to fly within 5 miles of that airport.

Let me give you an example, someone wants to fly over a prison. Perhaps they want to drop drugs and guns into the prison. Are you saying that DJI should just give a warning and then still allow the person to fly over the prison? How about a busy airport like JFK... just allow the person to still fly through the airfield? Again, the person has already been warned several times about the NFZ.

Let me also mention a couple of things... GEO is still in beta. We don't know what the final product will look like. It can also simply be turned off. I'll also quote some information from DJI's website on GEO:

Likewise, Congress describes “seaplane base” and “other locations with aviation activities.” This is in contrast to Section 336 concerning model aircraft which refers only to “an airport,” a seemingly far narrower concept than the enumerated all-inclusive list in Section 334.

For this reason, we have not categorized heliports, seaplane bases, private airstrips, and other similar locations as Authorization Zones.

and

I am authorized to fly closer than 1.5 miles from an airport. How will this work?
In Authorization Zones such as the one you mention, an operator simply needs a verified DJI account and uses the DJI GO application to unlock the area. Making sure that you are authorized is your responsibility.

Try this analogy, if you prefer: You are driving your car and hit 1% gas left, plenty to travel several more miles effortlessly. However; the car, in the middle of wherever it is, just puts on the brakes then turns off the motor. You can't steer, brake or accelerate, or restart once it's off. There you sit until you can refill the tank. Do you think the courts would let Ford or Toyota get away with that?

Again, nothing like a drone flying in a NFZ. I'll change it a little to apply... you are driving your car right at the back of a school bus full of kids. There is no way you could stop your car or just are not willing to stop. Your car gives you a warning. You still don't stop. After all of this, your car break automatically to avoid the collision. As you know... this already is in place. In your example the Phantom would simply turn off and crash to the ground. It does not. In your example the person would have no control over the landing drone, you do.

GEO is a good thing and DJI is doing it correctly.

 

[Drestin Black]

First, if you are flying far away from where you are and hit 10% battery, you've already screwed up. Second, if you run out of fuel in a vehicle you can still steer and break. You can do this with the Phantom as you mentioned. The difference is if you run out of fuel in a car you can't fall out of the sky and cause damage or injury. You think allowing the person to continue to fly as they want until the Phantom stops working and then becomes a missile is a better plan? Now you don't have a problem with a company that allows their product to become a falling missile? Which sounds better, a falling missile or a controlled decent?

I'm doing something wrong explaining it or you are still missing the point, and I don't meant any insult.

At ALL times it is better to give a human pilot control rather than BLIND automated software. ANY automatic function should be cancelable. Name me automatic functions on any plane helicopter car bus etc that can't be canceled. That's nuts!

What's better? A piece of software blindly landing your craft into ... Who know what? Water, fire, trees, road, people, cars, volcano, airfield, anything, who knows. And don't be distracted by repeating, well, you shouldn't be there so it's your fault. A pilot who is running out of gas and is forced to make an emergency landing on a road or into a military airfield isn't supposed to be there but he and his craft survived the emergency. Deal with legality of it later, survive safety first.

You did have control over the decent. You stated this yourself. You did not have the ability to keep flying as you normally would.

This limited flight control on the case of low batter is also bs. If you give me all other controls, why take away one that might save the day. Say I have just one more obstacle to overcome and land safely... Nope, automated factory software blindly insists I crash my perfect good, safely operating vehicle with me uselessly ready at the control. This increased danger, it didn't help whatsoever.

Let me say again when it comes to low battery.... you were shown on the bar graph when you needed to fly home based on distance and battery. You were warned at 30% that battery was low. These are your warnings from DJI that you seem to want. You still have 100% control as you want. Now, someone ignores these warnings and there is a _good_ change the Phantom will loose power and fall out of the sky with no control. You think this is better then a controlled landing? I'm not seeing it. The pilot has already ignored the two warnings given in order to stay in full control. At this point DJI is attempting to stop the Phantom from becoming a falling missile.

So this is your version of all those old airplane movies, the captain is bravely nursing his plane back to the runway, he is flying on fumes but still flying and is gonna make it by flying oh so carefully ...
No, Your version is, he's going along, his needle his E and despite a perfectly good airplane with running engines and flight and hope and a smarter than a machine pilot already working it out, just put that sucker down right now. Down into the sea or some neighborhood of homes ... And upon landing the engine will still be running and the pilot will be sitting at a perfectly good airplane and running engine explaining why he went down just shy of the airfield.

I think DJI's current set up is 100% spot on.[/QUOTE]




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[42FrankZ]

In a manned flight there is a pilot in control that has verifiable training, and that could be quite a bit especially if this is a commercial flight.

A phantom has someone in charge that has no verifiable training and is of questionable skill.

So here's the compromise, we all spend $15k to get a pilots license and DJI can turn off the geofencing. That puts the options on common ground.

 

[Drestin Black]

Yes, if there is a school yard of babies laying outside next to a NFZ, the drone operator does not correct the downward flight and it happens to hot a baby, then I'd see that DJI may have an issue.

Thanks for seeing my point.
When the DJI software *thinks* you have entered a NFZ it just takes away all control, you cannot hold up and maintain. It takes all control and just goes straight down.

And what if it's wrong? Is DJI perfect? Is its NFZ database perfect, today and forever? In my own instances, it suddenly declared a NFZ where there was one. AND after I retrieved my drone, I turned it back on, and took off again RIGHT where half hour ago it said I hit a hard NFZ. I've returned to that same spot early today and I was able to take off and fly the area.

However, the NFZ are not laid out as you mentioned. You need to be within 1.5 miles of the airport for any change in flight. In the meantime... and you've confirmed this... you confirmed certain information in order to fly within 5 miles of that airport.

Proving again, my craft was at the mercy of misbehaving software. It did not behave as it was supposed to, beta or not. The human pilot knew this and could handle that, the program didn't and put my drone and, potentially, lives below it at risk.

Let me give you an example, someone wants to fly over a prison. Perhaps they want to drop drugs and guns into the prison. Are you saying that DJI should just give a warning and then still allow the person to fly over the prison? How about a busy airport like JFK... just allow the person to still fly through the airfield? Again, the person has already been warned several times about the NFZ.

Answer me this: in our post 9/11 time, why is it that NO aircraft have such a system?

Surely Boeing and Cessna alike could do it and better than DJI. And their craft are bigger threats to anything new than our "toys" yet no one and nothing else does this. This alone is proof that DJI is wrong and singularly so.

Again, nothing like a drone flying in a NFZ. I'll change it a little to apply... you are driving your car right at the back of a school bus full of kids. There is no way you could stop your car or just are not willing to stop. Your car gives you a warning. You still don't stop. After all of this, your car break automatically to avoid the collision. As you know... this already is in place. In your example the Phantom would simply turn off and crash to the ground. It does not. In your example the person would have no control over the landing drone, you do.

Even automatic breaking systems allow you to tap the the gas pedal to override the braking function. There are no automatic systems in any car or plane or helicopter today that does what DJI does, for good reasons. Safety and liability.

This is unsafe and dangerous behavior. I hope DJI fixes it (the simple fix, engage return to home Or hover. Like hitting your max altitude. You can't go higher but you can fix the situation yourself once you hit max. Go lower and resume flying.

Current You Must Blindly Land is dangerous




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[Drestin Black]

I'll repeat with less distraction: you'll find no automatic system that can't be overridden in any other device - for many reasons but here is the biggest: the unforeseen.

If the choice is: auto land to avoid breaking the invisible line on a map that says NFZ or landing into an uncertain situation that may hurt someone or something, always fault on the side of caution and safety. A NFZ doesn't mean that 5 feet past it you'll hit something critical, here is room for pilots to say, oops, my bad, and turn away, under control. Forced Landing says, I'm going to take your mistake and potentially make it much much worse and you can't do a damned thing about it. Yes I know you could have resolved it with a simple flick of the controls but, screw you, I've decided, right or wrong, we're going down. Sit back and watch the "show".

You are ok with your craft doing whatever it feels like when it feels like?
What if it's wrong? What if you strayed in by 1 foot due to GPS inaccuracy.
Reminder, you don't even get any warning. You aren't told, attention, you are just 1 foot away from utterly losing all control of your flight. Right here you are captain my captain, one foot over and mohahaha I am in charge of your fate!



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[Dinerve]

[...]
Commies in my drones are going to be commies in somebody else's drones and real soon I hope. It's the singular thing I detest about my DJI products and I hate it enough to sell everything I've got (and will).

That's just a hilarious post in 2016!

Only real red danger over yours is with necks!

Peace.

 

[ExcObs1]

That's just a hilarious post in 2016!

Only real red danger over yours is with necks!

Peace.

Careful...there ARE a few sophisticated ones online here

 

[tcope]

Thanks for seeing my point.
When the DJI software *thinks* you have entered a NFZ it just takes away all control, you cannot hold up and maintain. It takes all control and just goes straight down.

You are incorrect (and I've stated this several times)... you _can_ control the decent. You can move left, right, forward and back. You can also stop the decent.

And what if it's wrong? Is DJI perfect? Is its NFZ database perfect, today and forever? In my own instances, it suddenly declared a NFZ where there was one. AND after I retrieved my drone, I turned it back on, and took off again RIGHT where half hour ago it said I hit a hard NFZ. I've returned to that same spot early today and I was able to take off and fly the area.

You simply want to ignore all of the prior warnings that were given and the users acknowledgement of these warnings. You paint the picture as if the person is just flying along and the drone simply starts to land. That is not the way it happens. The user can currently turn off GEO (problem solved). The user is warned that they are within a NFZ but allowed to fly. So the user needs to ignore that warning. They also have the ability to obtain a waiver to fly in that area that they would need to ignore. They then enter the NFZ and are warned again. _If_ the drone starts to land they then can still control the landing, they just cannot fly upward.

You say a person should be able to maintain full control over the drone after all of this? You think the person should then be able to fly over a prison or the middle of JFK?

Answer me this: in our post 9/11 time, why is it that NO aircraft have such a system?

Because there are humans on-board so the system is still in place, it's just different. Fly a manned plane toward the Whitehouse and let me know what happens. You continue to argue that these are the same things when they clearly are not. If you can't understand that, I'm not sure your willing to listen to anything.

Even automatic breaking systems allow you to tap the the gas pedal to override the braking function. There are no automatic systems in any car or plane or helicopter today that does what DJI does, for good reasons. Safety and liability.

You can also over-side GEO... again, I've pointed this out many times.