Refused clearance by an airport???

[jimgpayne]

I've seen a couple mentions of this happening on the forums; so I am wondering if we can get a clearer picture of what may be going on.

Who here has been denied clearance to fly when contacting an airport because you were within the 5 mile radius?

If you were; where was the airport located? (It would be interesting to see if different people are getting different results from the same airports).

Now I know that we are only supposed to notify and not ask for permission; but several people have been told they simply can't fly. It's those folks I like to hear from.

 

[LuvMyTJ]

Unless the is a NOTAM for that area I would be asking the tower why they are telling you no. You don't need permission, just notification.

Public Law 112-95, Section 336 requires model aircraft operators to notify the airport operator and air traffic control tower (if one is located at the airport) prior to operating within 5 miles of an airport.

 

[tcope]

Unless the is a NOTAM for that area I would be asking the tower why they are telling you no. You don't need permission, just notification.

Public Law 112-95, Section 336 requires model aircraft operators to notify the airport operator and air traffic control tower (if one is located at the airport) prior to operating within 5 miles of an airport.

(5) when flown within 5 miles of an airport, the operator of the aircraft provides the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport) with prior notice of the operation (model aircraft operators flying from a permanent location within 5 miles of an airport should establish a mutually-agreed upon operating procedure with the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport)).

I suspect if you both cannot enter a mutually agreed upon procedure that you'd not be able to fly. Usually law enforcement is going to side with the people charged with keeping airplanes safe vs someone who wants to fly a done within 5 miles of the airport.

 

[TrynFlyn]

Different results by different people at the same airport are likely;
A) Because of the pilots perception of what the ATCT meant when they say they don't "approve" flights within 5 miles.
B) The flight was denied for a legitimate reason, such as manned aircraft operations in the proposed flight area. A 5 mile radius has an area of 78.5 square miles, lots of air space where a conflict with manned operations could exist.

 

[MapMaker53]

It makes no sense to interpret the law as meaning you ONLY have to notify the tower of your presence and that you are not asking for their permission - even though it is worded that way. If that were the case, I could notify the tower that I would be flying my Phantom between 100 and 400 ft just beyond their fence and in line with Runway #1 and they couldn't do anything to prevent me from doing so. Clearly, the FAA needs to reword that so it is clearer that you need to obtain their permission, as they are the ones who control that air space.

 

[The Suburban Hippie]

This should surprise no one.

 

[fofun]

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[fofun]

Airspace is defined as over 400'


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[Shaba]

I contacted the local airport near where I live today, asked about a location that was within the 5 mile radius. I was told "No" because it was in a straight line of the approaching aircraft. Asked about another location that wasn't in the direct line, and they were fine with that (it was also within the 5 mile radius)

 

[Air Ontario]

Try this.... Look at the airport diagram that you are within 5 miles of. See if you are within 1500 ft or so of their R/W centerline and within a mile or two of the threshold.

If you are, why interfere with traffic on final to an active R/W? Go somewhere else.

It's not hard to listen to ATC and pick up on the traffic approaches and the pattern, circuit or hold/report points. Then stay away from those areas where planes are entering the pattern/circuit(right or left or 45) and away from R/W headings on takeoff R/Ws.

Then when you call to notify the tower of your intentions, all is good. Take ownership of the issue so you can fly when you want and where you want in cooperation with ATC.

 

[druss2001]

I contacted the local airport near where I live today, asked about a location that was within the 5 mile radius. I was told "No" because it was in a straight line of the approaching aircraft. Asked about another location that wasn't in the direct line, and they were fine with that (it was also within the 5 mile radius)

I could see this happening. I am just outside of the 5 mile airport radius but just watching the airspace, most days the planes land/take off going east/west but some days, they come in on a more northerly approach and are close to my location. My friend, even though he is beyond the 5 miles as well, his house is almost directly under the daily landing pattern.

 

[JKDSensei]

What's actually a bit surprising is that there have NOT been quite a few collisions by now.
Most people have no clue about all the information being discussed in this thread.

And fofun...where'd you get that notion?

 

[Air Ontario]

Airspace is defined as over 400'


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I personally know some High Speed Low Drag folks that would argue that although I'm certainly no Obama fan.

We have some areas that are defined from surface to 6000 ft. on NOTAM. for months at a time.

 

[impilot51]

Airspace is defined as over 400'


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Ummmm, no. Airspace is defined as from the surface up. In many areas around busy airports it controlled all the way to the surface. Just look at a sectional chart, around a big airport. You will see markings that may have the number 6000 divided by another number, or by the letters SFC. In that case the air space is controlled all the way to the surface.


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[impilot51]

Unless the is a NOTAM for that area I would be asking the tower why they are telling you no. You don't need permission, just notification.

Public Law 112-95, Section 336 requires model aircraft operators to notify the airport operator and air traffic control tower (if one is located at the airport) prior to operating within 5 miles of an airport.

The tower has final say, and though it says to notify within 5 miles, you could then extend that logic to say, well, I wanna fly my quad one half mile from the airport directly in line with the active runway and fly up to 400 feet. Ummm, no, you can't do that. That would be in direct line of incoming aircraft. So ok, how about 1/2 mile from the extended centerline of the runway? Nope. Bottom line here, if the tower denies you and says no, and you fly, and something happens, omg, I would not want to be you. Lastly, the tower is under no obligation to take the time to explain their decision. They can often be rather busy, and your not gonna make any friends by trying to push them for a reason. 30 years as a commercial pilot. I've seen tower folks be real nice, and I've seen them be total complete jack asses. Work with them. Try again another day, but be pushy or try to exert some supposed right to be there, and they will remember you. And more than likely, by that time they already have your name at a minimum.


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[Mark The Droner]

(5) when flown within 5 miles of an airport, the operator of the aircraft provides the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport) with prior notice of the operation (model aircraft operators flying from a permanent location within 5 miles of an airport should establish a mutually-agreed upon operating procedure with the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport)).

I suspect if you both cannot enter a mutually agreed upon procedure that you'd not be able to fly. ...

I think you might be misunderstanding this section of AC 91-57A. Either you are or I am.

I think the idea is, if you happen to want to fly within five miles of an airport, you must notify the airport of your flight plan. That is, you must advise them where, when, and how high, and you would normally do this on the day of the flight. And then you may fly. But if you have a spot that you want to fly on a regular basis, then you can attempt to establish a mutual agreement - and this eliminates the requirement for the UAV pilot to call the tower on any given day.

If you can't reach a mutual agreement, then you must call each time you fly. And then you may fly.

http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_91-57A_Ch_1.pdf

Obviously, it's implied the UAV pilot is not going to notify the tower that he plans to fly at the end of a runway or in any other reckless manner.

 

[Buk]

I thought FAA literature advised towers to deny if tower thinks prudent, but never approve. Acknowledge, but don't use the word "approve". Approval opens them up to liability, if UAV causes accident. Denial or acknowledgement covers their ***. Should say, "yes we're in receipt of your notification". Not, "yes we approve of your flight".

Or am I imagining I read that??

 

[fofun]

From what I have read and understand, is that the FAA can say what they want, but unless it is stamped by C.F.R.

The FAA regulates manned aircraft, and states that they cannot fly below 500 feet in populated areas, or by any vessel, vehicle or structure and that is in Title 14 CFR 91-119.

The 400' limit has a buffer of 100' so that the 2 CFR laws pertaining to the manned and unmanned aircraft can coincide.

Not trying to stir the pot or anything, just trying to make sense of it all.

As long as you fly in a safe manner and don't push the boundaries, and fly below 400' should never have a problem. And don't fly in the path or even near the path of a manned aircraft,

As for now, all of the airports that you are banned from flying within a 5 mile radius are posted. They are being updated periodically so you do need to check them from time to time.

I agree that you should throw the local airport a bone and call, but let them know it is a courtesy call. Then go fly.





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[WetDog]

From what I have read and understand, is that the FAA can say what they want, but unless it is stamped by C.F.R.

The FAA regulates manned aircraft, and states that they cannot fly below 500 feet in populated areas, or by any vessel, vehicle or structure and that is in Title 14 CFR 91-119.

The 400' limit has a buffer of 100' so that the 2 CFR laws pertaining to the manned and unmanned aircraft can coincide.

Not trying to stir the pot or anything, just trying to make sense of it all.

As long as you fly in a safe manner and don't push the boundaries, and fly below 400' should never have a problem. And don't fly in the path or even near the path of a manned aircraft,

As for now, all of the airports that you are banned from flying within a 5 mile radius are posted. They are being updated periodically so you do need to check them from time to time.

I agree that you should throw the local airport a bone and call, but let them know it is a courtesy call. Then go fly.





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You need to read a bit harder. There are a number of exceptions to the '500 foot' rule. Helicopters for one. Military / Coast Guard for another. Just staying below 400 feet does not give you a free pass at all.

And if the controllers say 'no' - it isn't a courtesy call. It's 'no'. It may not be a sensible no and you may want to politely inquire as to why. But it is 'no'. Hell, they might even have a good reason. And no time to talk to you.

Come on guys, it isn't always about you.

 

[MapMaker53]

Boggles my mind how many people prefer to stay blind to common sense just because they want to do something.