Question to the group

[Rick_x]

He did not clarify his intent - he changed his story. His original intent was quite clear.

Perhaps I should have worded my question differently. I should have asked how can I document my project and remain in compliance so as not to expose myself or the company to any liability.

 

[Rick_x]

Hello Rick-x and welcome to the forum.

As you can see if you ask 5 people on the forum a question you'll get 7 different answers. While I fully side with sar104, anotherlab and others in that this would most likely need/require you to have your Part 107 credentials it doesn't matter what we think. Call your local FSDO and explain to them that you are the Project Manager and you want to document this project (which you're over) but also include the following:

"I want to document the progress. I am trying to negotiate a deal so I can survey the project.

The Project is a 500,000 square foot distribution center. A ton of site work. I am doing this for me, I will use the maps i make in meetings".

So how do you think the FAA is going to believe that you're "surveying" the project that you are the Project Manager over and that there is any way in the world you wouldn't use these images to support your paying job in any way? ? ? You can stand on the roof tops yelling "I'm just a hobbyist" until the cows come home but it just not that simple. One thing we need to do is get away from "exchange of $$" as a defining factor for requiring Part 107 because it is NOT!! See more below:

Here's something I wrote out previously and have had several in-depth conversations with trusted FAA officials who dabble in this specific arena day in and day out. Hopefully this will shed some light on the whole subject and open a few eyes along the way:

CIVIL vs Hobbyist (Part 107 vs 101)
The problem stems from our own misunderstanding of the regs and how they were intended. Part 107 does not mean strictly "Commercial Operations" even though everyone (even the FAA) associates Part 107 with Commercial Use. It's even noted as the "Commercial UAS Rules" by the FAA. Commercial Operations are but one portion of what Part 107 encompasses.

Part 107 technically "allows" for "CIVIL" UAS operations. Part of that "civil" operation can certainly be commercial operations but doesn't exclude other flights that are not "Commercial". This is why Search & Rescue, Crop Inspections, Training & Education and many other flights require Part 107 even though they may not “directly” involve the exchange of $$.

Therefore, if you are not in compliance with Part 101 and you're not on an Exemption or Public Use COA, you are operating as a civil UAS and Part 107 applies.

Here is a direct quote from a friend of mine with the FAA:

"Think of it this way: Everyone is a civil UAS operator, subject to Part 107 (Public Use excluded). Now, Congress mandated that certain operators be left alone (not subject to Part 107) if they are operating as a hobbyist and codified law to describe what a hobbyist operation must adhere to. The FAA took that law and regurgitated it into Part 101. So, if you're going to claim that you are NOT flying under Part 107, you must follow all of Part 101, or else you revert back to Part 107 regulations."
***end of quote****

Therefore, if you are not in compliance with Part 101 and you're not on an Exemption or Public Use COA, you are operating as a Civil UAS and Part 107 applies. Part 107 CIVIL Operations is the Default and Part 101 (Hobby) is a narrow exclusion to Part 107. If any portion of your flight/operation falls outside of Hobby/Part 101 then you automatically fall under Part 107 regulations. You’re either INSIDE the hobby/Part 101 box completely or you’re outside hobby/Part 101 which means operating as a Part 107 Operation and must follow those rules. A single flight is either completely Hobby or it is 100% Civil/Part 107. We can’t mix & match the regulations within a single flight. The FAA has left no grey area in this matter and closed all the Loop Holes many moons ago.

I want to say this... why open yourself and your company up to potential problems when a simple test and $150 could help avoid it?

Even though it's not likely the FAA is going to come knocking on your door for doing this series of flights why risk it? What will you do if there is some kind of "incident" and the FAA is called?

For others who might be reading this and looking for advice... just because the odds of the FAA busting you for this type of behavior is very small (so long as you aren't reported or there isn't an incident) that doesn't make operating a UAS outside of Hobby guidelines without your Part 107 LEGAL! At some point we need to at least TRY to be ethical about it.

The idea to negotiate the company for the software was what I was thinking until I found out the company can not benefit from my work in any way. I thought originally that as long as no money changed hand I was good to to. I found out I was wrong. I can see why I was misunderstood. When really all I was trying to dial how I could be in compliance.

As I said in another post I should have reworded my question.

You have made some great points. I think the best thing to do is just get the certification. Then there will be no issue. Perhaps I will sit for one of those classes that is offered.

That last thing I want to to is open my company or myself any liability. I just thought I could not possibly acquire the knowledge quick enough to pass the test studying on my own.....

you are absolutely correct 150.00 is a cheap price to pay to be legal. The issue was never about money just time. I am closing out my current project and the new one is nipping at my hills. I have had 80+ hour weeks and I will be wide open until 18-October, the ribbon cutting,

I have contacted my insurance agent I should have a quote early next week.

This is all very new but I am a quick study. I do want to be legal.
Thanks,
Rick

 

[Rick_x]

He did not clarify his intent - he changed his story. His original intent was quite clear.

I changed my story so I would be in compliance, not for any other reason. I had every intention of using my maps in the Forman’s meetings until you clarified that this is. Benefit to the company. And therefore I would need the 107....

All I want to do is see if this technology is viable and not break the law.

I don’t want to start. Company, make money. I just want to experiment.

 

[Rick_x]

But I didn't "simply post a link", even though the links were to the definitive federal regulations. I answered your question in posts #11 and #13, and backed up those answers with the legal references in post #16. I explained the distinction, again, in even more detail, in my response to @With The Birds in post #28.

You, on the other hand, ignored all that information and instead resorted to accusations of "special", "inferiority complex", "toxic personality", "argumentativeness" etc., while at the same time having the nerve to assert that I was not being civil. You need to check the mirror, and learn to read. I'm done trying to help you.

Ok let me start over
At first...
I did have the thought I could use my maps in Forman’s meeting.

I was going to see if the budget could support the license
subscription.


Then you had educated me you indicated that just because I am not being paid Does not mean I would not need a cert.

All i was asking you was an If this, then that question. you would simply not answer me directly and I became frustrated. I apologize.

I wanted to adjust my actions to be in compliance. Just until i can get the time to,take the test. I am under a time crunch, I really want to the 1st video to be a green site. . If I had to have a license then I would not make the hard date.

Again I apologize that I became so,frustrated

Rick

 

[captainmilehigh]

Well Rick, it is all a learning process as you can see. We all started out as beginners at one point or another......so don't feel like you are alone in all this. What started as a hobby has turned into a business for many in the drone world.

Part 107 is necessary in many applications, including yours. There is a program you might want to check out. 'uavgroundschool.com' by Gold Seal. They have a great program that boasts a phenomenal success rate.

Good luck in your efforts. ......and Welcome to the PhantomPilots Forum. [emoji106]

 

[Rick_x]

Well Rick, it is all a learning process as you can see. We all started out as beginners at one point or another......so don't feel like you are alone in all this. What started as a hobby has turned into a business for many in the drone world.

Part 107 is necessary in many applications, including yours. There is a program you might want to check out. 'uavgroundschool.com' by Gold Seal. They have a great program that boasts a phenomenal success rate.

Good luck in your efforts. ......and Welcome to the PhantomPilots Forum. [emoji106]

 

[sar104]

Ok let me start over
At first...
I did have the thought I could use my maps in Forman’s meeting.

I was going to see if the budget could support the license
subscription.


Then you had educated me you indicated that just because I am not being paid Does not mean I would not need a cert.

All i was asking you was an If this, then that question. you would simply not answer me directly and I became frustrated. I apologize.

I wanted to adjust my actions to be in compliance. Just until i can get the time to,take the test. I am under a time crunch, I really want to the 1st video to be a green site. . If I had to have a license then I would not make the hard date.

Again I apologize that I became so,frustrated

Rick

OK - well fair enough then. Summary of the advice in this thread is (1) call the FAA yourself to get first-hand confirmation and (2) get your Part 107 - it's not difficult and it will allow you to do all the stuff you talked about. Good luck.

 

[Rick_x]

OK - well fair enough then. Summary of the advice in this thread is (1) call the FAA yourself to get first-hand confirmation and (2) get your Part 107 - it's not difficult and it will allow you to do all the stuff you talked about. Good luck.

I have lurked here just reading posts. I have read your posts. I come to know you as a person giving good information.

I have a sign in my office w/ the word engineer misspelled, crossed out 3x’s... bottom reads I’m good w/ numbers. My posts were riddled w/ typo-o, grammar errors. Not to mention a chain is difficult to follow. Understandable how it could all become confusing.

Here is my plan. on another post I was given info for a on line school. I am reaching out to them on Monday. I will prioritize sitting for the test

Most likely w/o a certification i will fly the green site. Depends on what i find out Monday when I contact the school. I am going to email the FAA for that area and tell them my plans. I don’t want any issues.

If i don’t get video of the soybean field It would absolutely drive me insane. I have been accused of being overly obsessive w/ the details. No 1 else would care but me. I care!

My end game is to be able to fly the site when ever I choose, then overlay the video onto my civil drawings. To produce Ortho maps, Time lapse video in 4K. And what ever new ideas that can be given to me. There uses i have even thought of.

All I can say is It is a massive amount of information to process. Only last month did I realize licensing was even an issue. I was all wrapped up one the tech spec Pro vs pro+, no 3rd party apps + separate controller. (Too Much) the needed attachments, software integration video editing software. At no time was i thinking about a license that’s for sure.

Let’s face I will want to share the maps, progression etc with he project team. There will be some young kid that is more savvy in cad than i am I will need to enlist their help. The exposure is too high not to be certified and quickly. I understand this.

Some one mentioned insurance, I already called my broker. He is looking into it. It’s difficult i have 0 hrs logged. I can insure the drone it is the liability that is an issue.

Thanks,
Rick

 

[BigAl07]

I'll 2nd captainmilehigh's suggestion for www.uavgroundschool.com They are FAA instructors who understand how the system works and they teach you the knowledge to be able to operate and navigate within the National Airspace System safely and efficiently. This is different than the vast majority of "Part 107 courses" which teach you to merely pass the test". This leads to poor aviators and whats worse unsafe UAS operations.

Good luck and please keep us posted and share your results and imagery.

 

[Rick_x]

I'll 2nd captainmilehigh's suggestion for www.uavgroundschool.com They are FAA instructors who understand how the system works and they teach you the knowledge to be able to operate and navigate within the National Airspace System safely and efficiently. This is different than the vast majority of "Part 107 courses" which teach you to merely pass the test". This leads to poor aviators and whats worse unsafe UAS operations.

Good luck and please keep us posted and share your results and imagery.

Thank you and certainly will.
Thanks,
Rick

 

[RunawayDrone]

Is airspace an issue with this project? Have you researched the class of airspace surrounding your construction site?

 

[Rick_x]

Actually that is probably the only thing i have done right so far. The project is in St. Louis but in an industrial park at this city limits. The airport is 15 miles to the northwest. As it is now the project is literally a soybean field. I sent this exact question to a friend that is a commercial pilot 2 weeks ago, which reminds he has not gotten back to me.
\

 

[KongWerks]

I might be a little late in to this... If your company pays for any of the software or if you are on company time while you do it you are being compensated for the flight and it not a hobbyist flight. My opinion only

 

[Seawolf]

You could do a 3d model with Pix4D, here's one of a middle school.

Here's a 3d model using Pix4D of a demolition site

If you'd like to interact with the 3d model, you can try it here Metcalf South Mall by Jjamieson - 3D model

Both were made flying automated routes and then each ran for several hours on the computer.

 

[Rick_x]

You could do a 3d model with Pix4D, here's one of a middle school.

Here's a 3d model using Pix4D of a demolition site

If you'd like to interact with the 3d model, you can try it here Metcalf South Mall by Jjamieson - 3D model

Both were made flying automated routes and then each ran for several hours on the computer.

Was this done to use w/ BIM? What I am looking to do is use my flights w/ Civil. CAD.

 

[Seawolf]

I would imagine there is a path to that but I'm not up on that. Did it to see what I could do with the software. You can output various 3d shape files. Checkout Pix4D.com. I have no connection to these folks but impressed with the ability to generate very complex scenes. Here's a construction site...

 

[Rick_x]

Outstanding this is exactly what peeked my curiosity. I will be sure to share what i have been able to accomplish on my up coming project