Called FAA today about max ceiling

[GadgetGuy]

I kind of agree, as with anything comes responsibility. It's the PIC (person in control)who has the responsibility, whether it's a drunk in a car, it's not the cars fault. Same as some reckless person with a firearm, the firearm did nothing. Same with a drone, if the pilot is reckless and causes an incident there should be consequences for the pilot. My point is they can't punish the masses because of a few reckless people. We need to go back to punishing the person not blaming the device. JMO


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Whom do we blame when DJI firmware takes control away from the PIC, and decides to land your aircraft in place, say on a freeway that you were crossing over, because of a falsely perceived NFZ, instead of warning you, and allowing you to pilot away from the falsely perceived NFZ?

 

[drone'n KY]

Apples and oranges.... same one that gets the blame if the brakes on your new car go out and cause you to have an accident the manufacturer.... we can talk about frogs and wings all day.... my point was if someone causes an accident then they should stand tall and own it.... if your drone flies away that's not you being reckless. And I guess your question is probably similar to the thoughts of a manned aircraft pilot making an emergency on a road or say the Hudson River...


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[GadgetGuy]

Apples and oranges.... same one that gets the blame if the brakes on your new car go out and cause you to have an accident the manufacturer.... we can talk about frogs and wings all day.... my point was if someone causes an accident then they should stand tall and own it.... if your drone flies away that's not you being reckless. And I guess your question is probably similar to the thoughts of a manned aircraft pilot making an emergency on a road or say the Hudson River...


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Not really, because any manned aircraft autopilot system can always be overridden by the PIC. Not so with DJI GEO firmware which takes the control away from the PIC, in direct violation of 107 Certification requirements, which specify that the PIC have control at all times! "HAL, open the door!"

 

[Bendix]

The firmware is not making a conscious decision to deliberately "take control away" from the PIC. It's an equipment malfunction just as it would be if a manned aircraft's pilot could not gain manual control from an autopilot that had malfunctioned. Let the UAV buyer beware that he's buying an airframe which does not have an airworthiness or type certificate and is subject to malfunctions due to the manufacturer's shorcomings in the areas of design, testing and/or manufacturing. It's your drone and you are responsible for it. "DJI ate my flight plan," doesn't cut it.

 

[drone'n KY]

An equipment failure is an equipment failure.... Even the military looses contact with their uav's... As 107 goes you can let an unlicensed person fly as long as the license holder is present at the ground control. Kinda like when you take you kid hunting you have to be able to take control anytime there is a safety risk.... The FAA wouldn't require something that is impossible... A piece of technology that works one hundred percent of the time... Never happen people make them and we're not perfect... So back to if a frog had wings..

 

[PageSide]

Per my conversation with the FAA. VIA a phone call, there is NO altitude limit for hobby fliers. Only commercial fliers. Here is the number I called to get that information.
844-FLY-MY-UA. 877-396-4636

The question I asked him was, as a non-commercial drone pilot, what is my max altitude. His reply, there is no limit. He went on to say that they do suggest pilots stay under 400 feet, but there was no law or regulation that says we have to.

Go ahead and blow that altitude limit. Cause an accident and then tell them you are a hobbyist. Let me know how that works out for you. Hobbyists such as yourself that think because you did not take the class, you can claim ignorance, YOU are the reason there are so many local laws prohibiting flight. Keep it up and no one will be able to fly anywhere.


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[BuickGS]

I am sorry if you do not agree with the FAA, and what was conveyed during my phone call with them. Feel free to call the number yourself and ask the same question. I don't make the rules, I was simply sharing them here.

 

[jwmcgrath]

That's just something I will never be able to wrap my head around and to be honest, it concerns me greatly. I mean we (the licensed and certified remote pilots) have the 400 ft AGL limit but any Tom, **** and Harry hobbyist (mostly referring to the first timer Christmas 2016 drone owners) can go out and fly irresponsibility...

Same reason that a skilled tradesman, a licensed electrician, or a gas fitter, is required to take years of schooling, follow strict code, adhere to inspections and practice measured workmanship to perform in his/her field, but a homeowner is legally permitted to remove load bearing walls, make any electrical alterations and pipe a gas stove, dryer or other appliance.

If you try to make sense of it, it starts to hurt.


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[BuickGS]

My intent with starting thread was not to promote flying your drone at 1600 feet. My issue was all of the people that keep saying it is illegal, or against the rules to fly above 400 feet and that is simply not true (unless you are doing so commercially). The fact is, as a hobby flier, you are allowed to fly above 400 feet. Period.

 

[GoLoves]

I am sorry if you do not agree with the FAA, and what was conveyed during my phone call with them. Feel free to call the number yourself and ask the same question. I don't make the rules, I was simply sharing them here.

I'm glad you did. It certainly sparked quite the debate! And this is a VERY good conversation for us to have. Opinions expressed here range across the board. I suspect that guidance from different FAA representatives would vary a little, too.

The bottom line is that you did the right thing in calling them, and on it's face you are technically correct. The guidance from the FAA for hobbyists is just that, guidance. It is not a hard rule or law.

Much of the debate here deals with the interpretation of what the FAA's soft language on the matter really means, to the individual hobbyist, commercial pilots, and the sUAS community at large.

I'm sure this is being debated extensively across the country. When an authority offers "guidelines" but goes no farther people become frustrated, especially when there are steep fines on the line.


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[Stew-2]

I am sorry if you do not agree with the FAA, and what was conveyed during my phone call with them. Feel free to call the number yourself and ask the same question. I don't make the rules, I was simply sharing them here.

They don't even have to call, they can simply read for themselves. Like a lot of quadcopter pilots I was trying to get to the bottom of this 400 foot "rule" I hear over and over, and well there just simply isn't one. EXCEPT if you're within three miles of an airport. It really is just that simple for hobby pilots.

Links that we've all seen several times by now:
Down at the bottom... no 400 ft rule if you're following community based rules (AMA)
eCFR — Code of Federal Regulations

AMA's rules:
Section 2c, no higher than approx 400 feet within 3 miles of airport
http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/105.pdf

FAA document to AMA affirming they are a community based organization and there is no 400' rule
http://amablog.modelaircraft.org/amagov/files/2016/07/FAA-400feet.pdf

It is all there in black and white. Oh yeah, one more... FAA myth busting that they don't control NAS all the way to the ground, myth number one:
Busting Myths about the FAA and Unmanned Aircraft

So with all the supporting documents, how can there be a question about how high you can fly? There is no altitude restriction for hobby flyers unless you're within three miles of an airport.

 

[BuickGS]

I am in the middle of taking a class with Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University covering sUAS concepts. I am thinking about getting my part 107 cert just in case I do decide to make a little money taking aerial photos. I live in a very rural area and farmers tend to dig aerial shots of their property. Which of course be taken at 400 feet or lower <G>

 

[GoLoves]

So with all the supporting documents, how can there be a question about how high you can fly? There is no altitude restriction for hobby flyers unless you're within three miles of an airport.

Thanks for putting all those links together. Very helpful.


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[GadgetGuy]

The firmware is not making a conscious decision to deliberately "take control away" from the PIC. It's an equipment malfunction just as it would be if a manned aircraft's pilot could not gain manual control from an autopilot that had malfunctioned. Let the UAV buyer beware that he's buying an airframe which does not have an airworthiness or type certificate and is subject to malfunctions due to the manufacturer's shorcomings in the areas of design, testing and/or manufacturing. It's your drone and you are responsible for it. "DJI ate my flight plan," doesn't cut it.

It's not a "malfunction" when DJI says it is operating as they intended it to! Study up on GEO. It takes away pilot control!

 

[Stew-2]

I was thinking about this thread and wanted to make another comment... Even though it seems very clear to me that there is no altitude restriction for hobby flyers, I personally have not gone higher than 300' because the thought of doing so around where I fly around the pastures by my house scares the daylights out of me.

I live literally right on the 3 NM edge of a popular small airport north of Everett and between all the small aircraft and the Boeing Dreamlifters practically scraping shingles off my roof (it feels like) as they're making their approach to Boeings Everett factory delivering parts, I don't even feel very comfortable at 300'.

But, when I do get around to flying elsewhere I feel completely confident I'm not breaking rules if I want to venture up a little higher; although as I've seen mentioned before, I don't see much point of going really high up because I can already see those kind of views using Google Earth.

Cheers!

 

[kennedye]

I live literally right on the 3 NM edge of a popular small airport north of Everett and between all the small aircraft and the Boeing Dreamlifters practically scraping shingles off my roof (it feels like) as they're making their approach to Boeings Everett factory delivering parts, I don't even feel very comfortable at 300'.

Heh, I live a few miles south of Paine and just a little off the approach to runway 34L, and we can always tell when one is coming in for a landing. 'S okay though, that's the sound of money rolling in!

(What'll really shake your house is when those occasional Antonov An-124s stop by. Good lord those are loud.)

 

[Stew-2]

You aren't kidding, there has been a time or two where I jumped up to look outside because I seriously thought one was going down!

 

[Fred72933]

While there may not YET be a rule about flying above 400 feet, common sense dictates that going higher may be thrilling or something to brag about but continuing reports to the FAA of drones in the manned aircraft airspace will eventually lead to institution of that as a rule or the complete grounding of hobby and recreational drones. Flying above 400 feet may be "cool" or "awesome" or some other popular euphemism but it is certainly detrimental to the hobby and some day, possibly very soon, may lead to serious consequences. Sort of like flying a lawn chair with big balloons, it was different, attracted a lot of attention, got the flyers name in the headlines and made him famous but it really cost him in the end.

 

[blackcrusader]

I made it to 266 today!

I'm not living in the USA so don't panic. lol

Max Distance 1,440 ft Max Altitude 1516.4 ft Max Speed 30.47 mph

 

[GadgetGuy]

I've logged the firmware imposed max of 500 meters legally, trying to ascend over top of a mountain, from the base, but was never more than 200 feet AGL. Unfortunately, the mountain top was 50 feet higher than 500m, so all I could do was orbit around the side closest to me!