4k Or D-Log problem ? pulsing/flickering, poor quality.

[Kranmc]

Ok - read all of these posts. I agree quality in P4 4 k is disappointing. The drone flies like a Ferrari, but the camera is weak. For sure, the 4K image is not as good as my former P3P. Has anyone figured out what the "true" native resolution on the camera is? And why is the inspire with the same camera (effectively) better than the P4?


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[David Cooke]

Have to agree with BOTH . . . it's advertised and "UHD: 4096×2160 (4K) 24 / 25p" which implies it can do it properly . . which apparently it can't really . . . but if you want to compare it to a $1500 Canon then let me see the Canon do 40mph while shooting even one frame . . 1080p @120fps is pretty amazing. I love mine even without 4K so soon as I make some more money with it doing just plane old HD I think I'm in the same boat as Helihover . . I'll need an X5r

 

[martin974]

Again, I have to agree with you because obviously it can't deliver the quality I waited. But IMO if not a question of price etc. A lot of camera/video gear in the same range can do exceptional things...things they have been advertised for. I don't compare a Fiat to a Ferrari man, I don't ask the P4 to have inspire quality. If you buy a Fiat with air conditioning, you WANT air conditioning, working each time not half of the time. I bought a drone with 4k in specs, I WANT to have 4k...
(and what about go pro, cheap, but used in pro environment, you don't have to own a RED to do amazing things...)

It's a bit funny that finally It's the consumer fault to have paid for a product that just doesn't deliver the tech specs described...I didn't bought the P4 like a fanboy, I thought about this move, I compared other drones and read a lot of review and forums before. Not a single user or review website said that 4k it's not so great...

I'm no in the drone area as a specialist, I need it for specific shots. I know that bigger copter can deliver best results, but I choose the P4 because of the size + tech specs, not a budget reason. I could have paid for an inspire or other brand but my requirement was to be able to go far in the mountain and to be able to bring the drone in long expedition with a small team. The P4 kit feat in a backpack with other hiking equipment and DJI claim the P4 do amazing 4k etc, it was perfect for what I need...

Now please let's go back to the main subject of this thread. Because what annoy me the most is that some of my 4k footage are great some other are juste crap...I'm still thinking that something can be done to improve the results.

This post was done EXCLUSIVELY to get out the best of the P4 and his limitation. I won't sue DJI...I actually love the P4, I just tried to achieve the best 4k possible with it...

 

[Kranmc]

Again, I have to agree with you because obviously it can't deliver the quality I waited. But IMO if not a question of price etc. A lot of camera/video gear in the same range can do exceptional things...things they have been advertised for. I don't compare a Fiat to a Ferrari man, I don't ask the P4 to have inspire quality. If you buy a Fiat with air conditioning, you WANT air conditioning, working each time not half of the time. I bought a drone with 4k in specs, I WANT to have 4k...
(and what about go pro, cheap, but used in pro environment, you don't have to own a RED to do amazing things...)

It's a bit funny that finally It's the consumer fault to have paid for a product that just doesn't deliver the tech specs described...I didn't bought the P4 like a fanboy, I thought about this move, I compared other drones and read a lot of review and forums before. Not a single user or review website said that 4k it's not so great...

I'm no in the drone area as a specialist, I need it for specific shots. I know that bigger copter can deliver best results, but I choose the P4 because of the size + tech specs, not a budget reason. I could have paid for an inspire or other brand but my requirement was to be able to go far in the mountain and to be able to bring the drone in long expedition with a small team. The P4 kit feat in a backpack with other hiking equipment and DJI claim the P4 do amazing 4k etc, it was perfect for what I need...

Now please let's go back to the main subject of this thread. Because what annoy me the most is that some of my 4k footage are great some other are juste crap...I'm still thinking that something can be done to improve the results.

This post was done EXCLUSIVELY to get out the best of the P4 and his limitation. I won't sue DJI...I actually love the P4, I just tried to achieve the best 4k possible with it...

I totally agree with this analysis. I don't understand why 1/2 the time the quality is pretty good and other times it's really crappy. My night shots aren't nearly as good as the P3P. What is going on here?it also seems really slow to focus when changing the view to a different perspective, i.e. Down view to level horizon view.


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[SoundByte]

Again, I have to agree with you because obviously it can't deliver the quality I waited. But IMO if not a question of price etc. A lot of camera/video gear in the same range can do exceptional things...things they have been advertised for. I don't compare a Fiat to a Ferrari man, I don't ask the P4 to have inspire quality. If you buy a Fiat with air conditioning, you WANT air conditioning, working each time not half of the time. I bought a drone with 4k in specs, I WANT to have 4k...
(and what about go pro, cheap, but used in pro environment, you don't have to own a RED to do amazing things...)

It's a bit funny that finally It's the consumer fault to have paid for a product that just doesn't deliver the tech specs described...I didn't bought the P4 like a fanboy, I thought about this move, I compared other drones and read a lot of review and forums before. Not a single user or review website said that 4k it's not so great...

I'm no in the drone area as a specialist, I need it for specific shots. I know that bigger copter can deliver best results, but I choose the P4 because of the size + tech specs, not a budget reason. I could have paid for an inspire or other brand but my requirement was to be able to go far in the mountain and to be able to bring the drone in long expedition with a small team. The P4 kit feat in a backpack with other hiking equipment and DJI claim the P4 do amazing 4k etc, it was perfect for what I need...

Now please let's go back to the main subject of this thread. Because what annoy me the most is that some of my 4k footage are great some other are juste crap...I'm still thinking that something can be done to improve the results.

This post was done EXCLUSIVELY to get out the best of the P4 and his limitation. I won't sue DJI...I actually love the P4, I just tried to achieve the best 4k possible with it...

all the crap you see in the frame in large grassy areas and trees is the result of a lossy compression algorithm, not a bad camera. Although one could argue that the compression codec is part of the camera. Compression works by removing detail. This is why it is really noticeable in grassy fields and forests. Because they are large areas of a similar colour, the codec treats a lot of the details as expendable and tosses it out to save space. The maximum bit rate of a P4 camera is 60mbs where as uncompressed 4K video is measured in Gbs. This is why 1080 looks better, because the codec doesn't have to throw out as much detail in order to fit it on a small SD card. Once the detail is gone, it's gone. No amount of converting will change that. As I said previously, the money you spent was 95% aircraft/gimbal and 5% camera. Unless they allow you to use a higher bit rate and hence use up more storage per second, I don't think it's going to improve. Also, videos taken by this platform are all over the Internet. I've not seen any that didn't suffer the same issues. A GoPro hero4 is $700, and all of it is 100% camera. I'm not sure why you mentioned it for comparison. Apples and Oranges my friend!!

There is no company out there that does not hype their product, DJI is no different. Doesn't matter if they're selling a drone or the latest weight loss pill.

 

[atariman]

DO NOT BUY A P4 for Pro use.


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[dave perry]

I totally agree with this analysis. I don't understand why 1/2 the time the quality is pretty good and other times it's really crappy. My night shots aren't nearly as good as the P3P. What is going on here?it also seems really slow to focus when changing the view to a different perspective, i.e. Down view to level horizon view.


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Yes, that's my biggest problem with the p4...one minute it's beautiful, the next rubbish...it's sold on djis website as delivering "sharp, clean video at up to 4k"..this is completely misleading advertising. ..it should be "sharp, clean video on occasions but expect just about anything most of the time"..

 

[airwindow]

Hi everybody,

I own a Phantom 4 for 1 month now. The unit was bought specially for a professional project (I'm photo/videographer).

As I work in the video industry for many years now I quickly identified some major issues concerning footage quality of the P4 camera. And I'm not alone...Many users across internet reported difficulties to achieve constant quality footage in 4k (and other situation but I'll discuss mostly about 4K). There are also many question about D-Log quality and I hope this topic will be the perfect place to sum up issues, solutions, and best of the best, maybe to have official words from DJI.


Before I start, I would like to precise that I'm used to work with many type of cameras and footage, from dslr, red, alexa, sony's F3 F5 Fs7 Fs5, OZO etc...We also have a post-production unit at our office and we do pro level editing and color grading for TV/Film industry. Moreover I want to mention that my P4 is in perfect condition, no crashs, no shocks, and firmware updated.


So for almost 1 month now, I'm testing the unit and the footage. My conclusion is pretty simple, the Phantom 4 4k + D-log quality is poor and unconsistant.

From day one and my first flight I quickly saw some "pulsing" or "flickering" artifact on the footage. Many others users have reported the same issue. It's mostly present in shadow and small detailled area (grass, rocks, water, foliage). It's not related to the aircraft nor camera movements, it can occur on stable shot as well. It's not related to ISO or light condition, I experienced this issue during many different type of flights and places.


This "flickering/pulsing" problem never appeared on 2k and HD footage.

I suspect that the problem come from the resolution and I must confess I didn't tested D-log versus others profiles. Simply because as a professional my goal is to shoot D-log to achieve the best quality for post and grading.


Without any clear answer or clarification from other pilots, DJI or google, I finally decided to do a true comparaison test in the video below.

WORKFLOW :

All these shots have been done with the same unit during 2 differents days.

Always the same camera setting, lights change are naturals, clouds etc.

ISO 100 - 1/60s @ 29,97fps

Everything manual - Sunny WB fixed

3D noise reduction off

ND8/pl for test 1, ND4/pl for test 2 (porlapro cinema collection)

D-Log + custom -2;-2;0 (sharpness;contrast;saturation)


Recorded in P4 MOV

Transcoded in proRes

Edited in PremierePro (last version)

Exported as ProRes Master and youtube H264.


First of all, as I wanted to compare 3 resolution in the same video so I edited in a timeline with the setting of the smaller one.

By reducing the 4k and 2k footage to 1080p these artifact/pulsing/flickering are less visible than the original resolution of each one.

Moreover I just realized that the youtube export and online compression tend to also smooth them. It's more present on the original file than what you see on youtube player.


Saying that, even in a final 1080p output, my proRes master file is really flickering/pulsing with 4k footage.

I also exported some segment of 4k 2k and HD in their native resolution. Same results. (video bellow)

I did the same job using non-transcoded media, editing with native h264 and exporting as is. Same results, as well as exporting as proRes (non senses but I tried).

I exported graded/ungraded footage, same results.

I tried anti flickering filter, no success (and not a solution, I want a clean 4k on my 1600$ drone)

I finally tried on FCPX just to be sure...same results.


I also see less detail/sharpen in 4k than 2k and less in 2k than HD. 4k < 2k < HQ.


Keep in mind that everything described in the video is just more clear on masters and original files.

(I would ike to upload those proRes masters and other original files used, but unfortunatly, for the purpose of the shoot I'm in an area with really slow internet connexion. Giving you this video was already difficult.)


Conclusion :

On a big part of my 4k footage I have flickering/pulsing/artifact problem. From original media to edited output. No matter what are my camera setting or light condition, altitude, speed etc.

I don't think is a D-log problem because D-log is great on 2k and HD. I'll try 4k with other profile in the next days.

Even if I'm sure it's on the original media, as you can see, I tried a lot of differents things. Differents editing method, different output, video player etc. Same results.

My biggest regret in this post is the fact that youtube compression minimize a lot what I describe, so please look and read carefully.

Some people on internet said that 4k is just an electronic blow up of HD footage, if it the case, DJI did misleading advertising IMO.


4k to 4k segment

1- I would like to know if it's a problem with my unit, with some or with all P4. (pretty sure i'm not alone, after all the posts I saw accross the web)

2- I would like to know if there is any tricks that can help or mistakes I maybe do.

3- What do you think of your 4k footage ?


Best regards.


ps: original files will be available for download asap.

Strange, I must admit. It is difficult to comment on this issue that you have, when it comes to reviewing via YouTube video. I suggest you to send a link (Dropbox, Google Drive, etc ...) from the video "straight-from-the-camera". They will help anyone who needs help. An example of the last work, a few days ago:

 

[David Cooke]

Thanks martin974 for that detailed explanation . . I totally get it now . . How can I see your comparison shots? . . only youtube (not always the best compression) . . is there another way?
Thanks . . great learning experience

 

[m0j0]

Have to agree with BOTH . . . it's advertised and "UHD: 4096×2160 (4K) 24 / 25p" which implies it can do it properly . . which apparently it can't really . . . but if you want to compare it to a $1500 Canon then let me see the Canon do 40mph while shooting even one frame . . 1080p @120fps is pretty amazing. I love mine even without 4K so soon as I make some more money with it doing just plane old HD I think I'm in the same boat as Helihover . . I'll need an X5r

I am a videographer. To be honest I don't consider the Phantoms or any of the birds in this class to be professional grade. I would say they are prosumer. Under perfect lighting conditions with slow deliberate movements I think you can use the video professionally. As pros go I'm at the bottom. Weddings and events primarily. My cam of choice is the GH4 which is basically the X5. My customers would absolutely love to have footage from the Phantoms included. But I'm really not sure I would want to use it on a commercial.... So I think it is useable depending on your audience. Wedding yes. Dental office commercial - no.

And before the drone police come in.. I use my P3 for fun only and do not use the videos on anything connected to my business. I'm looking hard at the Inspire now that they are coming down in price. That I would use professionally.


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[m0j0]

DO NOT BUY A P4 for Pro use.


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I would say it depends.. Depends on what you use it for...if you are filming commercials I agree... It would be fine for b-roll footage for event videography.


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[SoundByte]

I would say it depends.. Depends on what you use it for...if you are filming commercials I agree... It would be fine for b-roll footage for event videography.


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It would probably be OK for mapping as well, considering you're working with stills rather than vids. The biggest problem I see with using it to map, is the wide field of view.

 

[martin974]

I just get a word with another user via the DJI official forum who had the exactly same issue of mine, DJI replaced the power board of the P4 and no more flicker/pulsing.

Yes I try to upload the proRes master via dropbox but as said before, I'm on a shoot on a remote location, internet is terrible...

 

[lalvar40]

just get a word with another user via the DJI official forum who had the exactly same issue of mine, DJI replaced the power board of the P4 and no more flicker/pulsing.

Have you tried to use NONE instead of DLOG. It seems it brings more details. DLOG is great for grading but I loose a lot of details: grass and trees get mushy.

 

[Kranmc]

So I tried various settings yesterday. Re image clarity and detail:
1) It seems that 1080@60 fps gives the clearest view, but has that "Soap Opera" effect that you see on HD tv's with smooth motion setting going on. 2) Reduced 4k@30 fps is next best.
3) Tried 1080@120 fps and it was a pile of mush?

Similar results anyone?

To David Cooke: you said you like 1080@ 120 - do you get a cropped or zoomed view in addition?


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[jumic]

Here its my video using 4K mov, just brand new phantom 4

The screen flicker every 5 second

 

[dave perry]

So I tried various settings yesterday. Re image clarity and detail:
1) It seems that 1080@60 fps gives the clearest view, but has that "Soap Opera" effect that you see on HD tv's with smooth motion setting going on. 2) Reduced 4k@30 fps is next best.
3) Tried 1080@120 fps and it was a pile of mush?

Similar results anyone?

To David Cooke: you said you like 1080@ 120 - do you get a cropped or zoomed view in addition?


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Hi there, Kranmc...I live in a pal country....I've found that keeping the camera at 50fps/100iso gives me the largest number of usable clips. To achieve that I've bought an nd 4,8,16 and 32. I shot something the other day at 50fps but had to up the iOS to 200 to get the exposure right and the result was soft and mushy.
So, it seems it's the combination of 50fps and 100 iOS that is all the cameras compressor can handle....that's extremely restrictive in a professional situation. The camera's greatest limitation, along with inconsistent video compression is its constant 2.8 iris...to have been able to use the nd filter to get close to correct exposure and then make a subtle adjustment with the aperture would have helped the limitations of the camera a lot. I've decided to use mine only for my own work and never offer myself out as a drone camera operator. The whole thing is very disappointing.

The argument I hear frequently is that you shouldn't expect a consistent level of quality from these cameras because they're only prosumer is completely fatuous. Canon make many prosumer level dslrs including the 1200d, 70d etc...these cameras produce great, sharp pictures every single time. Cannon simply wouldn't be in business if they offered anything less. Dji have cornered the market so can afford to make to have a substandard camera in the market. Many people spending their hard earned money on these machines don't know the difference.

 

[David Cooke]

So I tried various settings yesterday. Re image clarity and detail:
1) It seems that 1080@60 fps gives the clearest view, but has that "Soap Opera" effect that you see on HD tv's with smooth motion setting going on. 2) Reduced 4k@30 fps is next best.
3) Tried 1080@120 fps and it was a pile of mush?

Similar results anyone?

To David Cooke: you said you like 1080@ 120 - do you get a cropped or zoomed view in addition?

Sorry I meant 1080p@60fps . . .and I can crop/zoom in and out in PremierPro although I'm still just figuring out how to do that properly. I've watched Jumic's video and can't see any hidious flicker "every 5 sec". Seems pretty smooth . . again I'm not a pro photo guy or even any good yet at Post Production so can't appreciate the real problem about 4K. I will have to do some of my own experiments. . . even with a good high-end desktop processor, 4K resolution just does not seem to be all that important. I get that the Pros have an issue but it's a pretty generic camera for commercial stuff. dji has over-hyped the marketing.

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[David Cooke]

Hi everybody,

I own a Phantom 4 for 1 month now. The unit was bought specially for a professional project (I'm photo/videographer).

As I work in the video industry for many years now I quickly identified some major issues concerning footage quality of the P4 camera. And I'm not alone...Many users across internet reported difficulties to achieve constant quality footage in 4k (and other situation but I'll discuss mostly about 4K). There are also many question about D-Log quality and I hope this topic will be the perfect place to sum up issues, solutions, and best of the best, maybe to have official words from DJI.


Before I start, I would like to precise that I'm used to work with many type of cameras and footage, from dslr, red, alexa, sony's F3 F5 Fs7 Fs5, OZO etc...We also have a post-production unit at our office and we do pro level editing and color grading for TV/Film industry. Moreover I want to mention that my P4 is in perfect condition, no crashs, no shocks, and firmware updated.


So for almost 1 month now, I'm testing the unit and the footage. My conclusion is pretty simple, the Phantom 4 4k + D-log quality is poor and unconsistant.

From day one and my first flight I quickly saw some "pulsing" or "flickering" artifact on the footage. Many others users have reported the same issue. It's mostly present in shadow and small detailled area (grass, rocks, water, foliage). It's not related to the aircraft nor camera movements, it can occur on stable shot as well. It's not related to ISO or light condition, I experienced this issue during many different type of flights and places.


This "flickering/pulsing" problem never appeared on 2k and HD footage.

I suspect that the problem come from the resolution and I must confess I didn't tested D-log versus others profiles. Simply because as a professional my goal is to shoot D-log to achieve the best quality for post and grading.


Without any clear answer or clarification from other pilots, DJI or google, I finally decided to do a true comparaison test in the video below.

WORKFLOW :

All these shots have been done with the same unit during 2 differents days.

Always the same camera setting, lights change are naturals, clouds etc.

ISO 100 - 1/60s @ 29,97fps

Everything manual - Sunny WB fixed

3D noise reduction off

ND8/pl for test 1, ND4/pl for test 2 (porlapro cinema collection)

D-Log + custom -2;-2;0 (sharpness;contrast;saturation)


Recorded in P4 MOV

Transcoded in proRes

Edited in PremierePro (last version)

Exported as ProRes Master and youtube H264.


First of all, as I wanted to compare 3 resolution in the same video so I edited in a timeline with the setting of the smaller one.

By reducing the 4k and 2k footage to 1080p these artifact/pulsing/flickering are less visible than the original resolution of each one.

Moreover I just realized that the youtube export and online compression tend to also smooth them. It's more present on the original file than what you see on youtube player.


Saying that, even in a final 1080p output, my proRes master file is really flickering/pulsing with 4k footage.

I also exported some segment of 4k 2k and HD in their native resolution. Same results. (video bellow)

I did the same job using non-transcoded media, editing with native h264 and exporting as is. Same results, as well as exporting as proRes (non senses but I tried).

I exported graded/ungraded footage, same results.

I tried anti flickering filter, no success (and not a solution, I want a clean 4k on my 1600$ drone)

I finally tried on FCPX just to be sure...same results.


I also see less detail/sharpen in 4k than 2k and less in 2k than HD. 4k < 2k < HQ.


Keep in mind that everything described in the video is just more clear on masters and original files.

(I would ike to upload those proRes masters and other original files used, but unfortunatly, for the purpose of the shoot I'm in an area with really slow internet connexion. Giving you this video was already difficult.)


Conclusion :

On a big part of my 4k footage I have flickering/pulsing/artifact problem. From original media to edited output. No matter what are my camera setting or light condition, altitude, speed etc.

I don't think is a D-log problem because D-log is great on 2k and HD. I'll try 4k with other profile in the next days.

Even if I'm sure it's on the original media, as you can see, I tried a lot of differents things. Differents editing method, different output, video player etc. Same results.

My biggest regret in this post is the fact that youtube compression minimize a lot what I describe, so please look and read carefully.

Some people on internet said that 4k is just an electronic blow up of HD footage, if it the case, DJI did misleading advertising IMO.


4k to 4k segment

1- I would like to know if it's a problem with my unit, with some or with all P4. (pretty sure i'm not alone, after all the posts I saw accross the web)

2- I would like to know if there is any tricks that can help or mistakes I maybe do.

3- What do you think of your 4k footage ?


Best regards.


ps: original files will be available for download asap.

For Martin 974 . . . How can I see your original 4K video (not compressed/processed by YouTube) or other . .I've watched this thread and your video examples closely trying to understand the issue properly but cannot seem to see that noticeable flicker. . .I guess I do not know what I'm looking for because it is such a subtle event. I do have an i7 4770k with GTX980 and 3 x 27" screens so I should not be a hardware issue. I know youtube does it;s own thing with compress after you upload so part of the effect is diminished by them I'm sure.
Thanks . . really would like to understand
Cookedinlh
Thanks