Using DJI Goggles and VLOS rule

SHRED · May 20, 2017

I have a P3A I'm learning on now but the Mavic coupled with the DJI Goggles looks very attractive.

I most likely will get a Mavic when they upgrade the still camera capability and the goggles look inviting also.

Considering VLOS are they illegal to use in the USA to fly? I assume so. Are there any groups lobbying to get the rules changed to allow piloting by goggles?

sar104 · May 20, 2017

SHRED said:
I have a P3A I'm learning on now but the Mavic coupled with the DJI Goggles looks very attractive.

I most likely will get a Mavic when they upgrade the still camera capability and the goggles look inviting also.

Considering VLOS are they illegal to use in the USA to fly? I assume so. Are there any groups lobbying to get the rules changed to allow piloting by goggles?

Right now flying FPV is not in compliance with the model aircraft guidelines and breaks the Part 107 rules. It's fine for a third party observer though, not that that is the intent of the goggles.

AlanTheBeast · May 20, 2017

SHRED said:
I have a P3A I'm learning on now but the Mavic coupled with the DJI Goggles looks very attractive.

I most likely will get a Mavic when they upgrade the still camera capability and the goggles look inviting also.

Considering VLOS are they illegal to use in the USA to fly? I assume so. Are there any groups lobbying to get the rules changed to allow piloting by goggles?

If you are piloting with FPV then you need a spotter who keeps the drone in sight at all times (US, Canada).

In Canada for commercial operations, the spotter has to be trained as a spotter and there has to be proof of such training. (Yeah, our bureaucrats are the best! They must be, right?).

An observer using the goggles is no issue at all.

SHRED · May 20, 2017

Maybe I don't know enough yet but it seems to me that a quality FPV would be the safest way to fly.

SHRED · May 20, 2017

Also, I saw a guy practicing racing using FPV at the park the other day by himself. I assume that is illegal?

msinger · May 20, 2017

SHRED said:
Maybe I don't know enough yet but it seems to me that a quality FPV would be the safest way to fly.

Clearly seeing the drone with your own eyes is always going to be the safest way to fly. When using FPV goggles, it's not possible to see anything except what is directly ahead of the drone.

sar104 · May 20, 2017

AlanTheBeast said:
If you are piloting with FPV then you need a spotter who keeps the drone in sight at all times (US, Canada).

In Canada for commercial operations, the spotter has to be trained as a spotter and there has to be proof of such training. (Yeah, our bureaucrats are the best! They must be, right?).

An observer using the goggles is no issue at all.

107.31 does clearly state that EITHER the remote pilot in command and the person manipulating the controls (if different) OR the visual observer must be able to see the aircraft.

That's more flexible than I recalled from other FAA material, which appeared to say that the visual observer was only a substitute for the pilot's LOS for brief periods - such as looking down at the controller or screen. I stand corrected.

AlanTheBeast · May 20, 2017

SHRED said:
Maybe I don't know enough yet but it seems to me that a quality FPV would be the safest way to fly.

I tend to agree but the US and Canadian governments have taken a lot of guidance from the AC modelling rules which require all sorts of things around FPV. A local club here requires a "qualification" course for the pilot and the spotter.

These rules are stale as goggles, cameras and data links have advanced tremendously. And the modelling community rules are firmly based on pilot-in-the-control-loop whereas our drones are completely self stabilized. All we do is "push them around the sky". But the government drones who make the rules go to the least common denominator. Very frustrating.

SHRED said:
Also, I saw a guy practicing racing using FPV at the park the other day by himself. I assume that is illegal?

Definitely.

kilhan · May 20, 2017

No, because you look only in one direction at the moment, and you can't control what happens around. FPV filght is a BVLOS filght and shuld be done in a controlled airspace.

AlanTheBeast · May 20, 2017

msinger said:
Clearly seeing the drone with your own eyes is always going to be the safest way to fly. When using FPV goggles, it's not possible to see anything except what is directly ahead of the drone.

IMO that first person view mean greatest situational awareness for the pilot. Naturally he has to be flying in the direction that the camera is pointing for this to be safe and effective.

msinger · May 20, 2017

AlanTheBeast said:
IMO that first person view mean greatest situational awareness for the pilot.

Did you ever try taking off and/or landing while wearing goggles? Situational awareness is very poor.

AlanTheBeast · May 20, 2017

msinger said:
Did you ever try taking off and/or landing while wearing goggles? Situational awareness is very poor.

I'm not talking about every potential edge case. For the general case they are fine and (at least with the DJI Goggles) easy to flip out of the way for close work. Another edge case would be flying low over the forest where the wide angle view precludes seeing small branches along the flight path until too late.

msinger · May 20, 2017

It's not really an edge case at all. It was just a specific example that most people can relate to. All situational awareness is out the window (IMO) as soon as you slide those things over your eyes.

kilhan · May 20, 2017

AlanTheBeast said:
IMO that first person view mean greatest situational awareness for the pilot. Naturally he has to be flying in the direction that the camera is pointing for this to be safe and effective.

Just the opposite. As an UAV operator you are responsible for the separation and obliged to give way to any manned aircraft. A now imagine a parachutist or a small airplane approaching you from behind or from overhead. Will you notice it from FPV?

AlanTheBeast · May 21, 2017

Good points. My opinion is really on the notion of "where am I and where am I pointed and where am I going". For that FPV is better than eyballing a drone 300 m away.

I can't take the avoiding traffic notion seriously at all. While, yes, they are encoded in law, so are the requirements on other aircraft. That is, they will (all but never) never be in my airspace (below 300' in Canada or 400' in the US).

But I will take care about parachutists - I mean, hell, they're falling like rain everywhere...

lickitysplit11111 · May 21, 2017

kilhan said:
Just the opposite. As an UAV operator you are responsible for the separation and obliged to give way to any manned aircraft. A now imagine a parachutist or a small airplane approaching you from behind or from overhead. Will you notice it from FPV?

Err not really related but I found this last night while searching something....

AlanTheBeast · May 21, 2017

lickitysplit11111 said:
Err not really related but I found this last night while searching something....

Was that a tether all the way to the ground? Yep, his tow line.

lickitysplit11111 · May 21, 2017

AlanTheBeast said:
Was that a tether all the way to the ground?

According to the title it was his tow line, right after he turns around from looking over his shoulder at the plane

It looks like he drops it from the carabiner but the video cuts away

AlanTheBeast · May 21, 2017

lickitysplit11111 said:
According to the title it was his tow line, right after he turns around from looking over his shoulder at the plane It looks like he drops it from the carabiner but the video cuts away

Yeah - I caught that after my post above - hence the edit.

smiller · May 22, 2017

lickitysplit11111 said:
Err not really related but I found this last night while searching something....

Seems like that collision would have been worse for the airplane than the paraglider. If the tether was cut I assume that the paraglider could land safely, while if the tether did any damage to airfoils or controls on the airplane it could have been a real bad day for that pilot.