NO-FLY Logic Flawed

[David Cooke]

I posted UNLOCK NIGHTMARE a couple of days ago. This is a followup but not about the nightmare itself. I think I've figured out the DJI No-Fly logic . . and it's flawed.

If you get them (DJI) to UNLOCK your P4 for a certain location, they expect you to take-off from INSIDE that restricted zone. If you are on the edge you can start and fly. If you fly toward the zone it will stop you even if you have UNLOCKED the no-fly zone and you will bounce off the invisible GEO-FENCE.

If you persist and don't back off it will warn you and then take over command of your P4P and land. I found out you can actually move left and right not forward but back but you CAN NOT CLIMB once it tries to land. I was able to stop the decent at 1foot and fly around but not climb above the 1 foot.

However, if I carry it by hand inside the no-fly zone I can select the the UNLOCK and start but if I fly out of the zone and try and re-enter the zone I will be locked out. If I try to return it cautions me that I'm passing a No-fly zone and my RTH may fail. . . .and as I write this now I'm even more confused.!!!

Bottom line is : This whole no-fly protection DJI is messing with is not working and not useful when it does. It creates a Flight Safety issue by forcing the bird DOWN and landing by inhibiting RTH. Result it can land anywhere out of control . . technically a BUILT IN FLY_AWAY condition. This need to be completely rethought!

As soon as I UNLOCK like this

I get "Cannot Take off" even though I an IN the no-fly zone and UNLOCKED
If I am UNLOCK and take off OUTSIDE the zone I cannot fly INTO the zone

 

[Bakersfield Quad]

That does seem odd, but maybe that is due to software limitations?
But, I think that's exactly what is going on, workaround, stay inside the zone, keep the craft within a distance that will keep you inside.

 

[David Cooke]

Creative thinking but does not actually matter. I was out there last evening ( likely after DJI unlocked two approvals) . . I noticed that both were accessible to unlock but. . .It should not have mattered before that since the first unlock was the same zone as the second and had expired. There were just different launch points about 1km apart in the same zone.

The valid zone was the same zone in BOTH cases.

At any rate I attempted to start with BOTH UNLOCKED and with either one selected with no luck. It is not easy to keep going back to test because I have to go back for permissions and file a NOTAM every time I go there. More importantly I am unable to plan ANYTHING with all this messed up unlocking . . I need to consider, weather, wind, lighting, cloud cover, local aircraft activities, predict the active runway in use at the time, file a NOTAM, anticipate activities of people on the property I’m launching from, coordinate the availability of my observer, and a dozen other factors and DJI UNLOCK protocol is costing me HOURS AND HOURS of wasted time for a 10-15 min photo shoot.

This is the result!

 

[Bakersfield Quad]

Yeah, seems like a pain, hard to make a living with that.

 

[Calsun]

Very useful information and applicable to where I live and will be flying my drone much of the time. I have managed programmers writing code since the days of DOS 1.0 and with computer environments that ranged from standalone data acquisition equipment to mainframe computers and the situation is always the same. Programmers write to a specification and that specification needs to provide the logic and branch points and responses and error recovery for any given situation.

In this example the programmers coded for someone inside a zone to restrict the drone. They did not consider the situation where someone was outside the zone and flying into the zone. This shows poor software production practices at DJI and such shortcomings are unfortunately becoming increasingly common as experienced programmers are replaced with less expensive individuals and with non-technical managers managing this function (true even at places like IBM, HP, and Cisco, where I have worked).

I rented a Mercury in Dayton in the winter and stopped along a country road to get a jacket out of the trunk of the car. I put the car transmission in Park and got out and shut the door to keep the heat inside and as soon as I did that the doors locked. Someone at Ford at decided on this safety feature to operate in this manner. I had to walk to a pay phone and use the 800 phone number on the decal on the car's window to get the vehicle unlocked remotely by Ford. In the situation with the Mercury I could have frozen to death had a country store not been a couple miles down the road. My current vehicles that have an auto door lock feature will do this either when putting the transmission in Drive with my GM truck, or with my Mercedes coupe, when the car goes faster than 15 MPH.

 

[David Cooke]

I have now found out that the error of 1 digit "4" instead of "2". I bear some responsibility for not catching this but it was passed back and forth 3 times between myself and DJI leading to a 2 deg error in North Latitude. The area DJI had UNLOCKED for me was in the center of Lake Huron 2 full degrees NORTH of the airport.

However, this does not explain why it was possible to have the RED No-Fly Zone overlay at Sarnia Airport disappear whenever I achieved as successful UNLOCK and yet was prevented from starting ( see photo above). . .or why the P4P was forced down whenever approached the airport with no RED No-Fly Zone showing and UNLOCK shown as successful. When it was LOCKED the zone showed RED, so it seemed pretty apparent that was the area being UNLOCKED

I corrected the LAT today and will attempt the mission again tomorrow . . with another NOTAM of course. Will keep this posted.

 

[iflyp3s]

Wow that is crazy. They simply haven't considered all situations and allowed the software to react to that.

I am grateful to live in an area where I don't have no fly zones for at least 5km in each direction.

 

[David Cooke]

Final test this morning . . . no problem starting or flying . . UNLOCK worked. . . . HOWEVER. Why does a local RED no-fly zone disappear when you are 200km from the UNLOCKED area that is not restricted and does not need unlocking. . but inside a No-Fly Zone?

Apparently DJI will unlock ANY areas you ask for regardless of whether the area is actually restricted/NO-FLY ZONES or not. If you are not in the area they UNLOCKED the restricted (RED) zones disappear from your display but are still active. . . and you are still "intercepted" and forced to land . . . with or without your consent !

This is not good management of domestic air space if the UAV is programmed to "take over" and lock the operator out.

This whole month including hours of troubleshooting was the result of 1 wrong digit and a very cumbersome process. Yes I should have picked that up during the first back and forth but the ambiguous and inconsistent behaviour of DJI submissions and approvals pointed to anything BUT.

 

[gizmoking]

Sure glad I haven't updated my P4 firmware. It took 7 months to get a simple SFOC from transport Canada, I can't imagine adding unlock problems to the mix of getting "official" permission. While it won't help any of us who need to fly, having an airworthiness directive issued seems to be in order as an uncontrolled landing is a danger and safety issue to people on the ground, and could potentially cause damage or a fire if it hit hydro wires on the way down. DJI may do something if there products are banned by a federal air authority. It shouldn't have to be this way, especially when DJI is probably hoping they get priority approval by doing all this in the first place. However the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and DJI has made a mess of things to the extent I no longer trust their products.

 

[John Locke]

rented a Mercury in Dayton in the winter and stopped along a country road to get a jacket out of the trunk of the car. I put the car transmission in Park and got out and shut the door to keep the heat inside and as soon as I did that the doors locked. Someone at Ford at decided on this safety feature to operate in this manner. I had to walk to a pay phone and use the 800 phone number on the decal on the car's window to get the vehicle unlocked remotely by Ford. In the situation with the Mercury I could have frozen to death had a country store not been a couple miles down the road.

Not to hijack this thread, but I would have broken the window, returned the car, complained to the rental company for renting me a defective car, and demanded a Chevy or Dodge. There is no arguing this is a design defect. Walking 2mi isn't an option, but that's me. The rental company would stop buying Mercury's if everyone did that, and the Ford Motor company will quickly get the message.

 

[David Cooke]

Followup on the FLAWED LOGIC question here is what I received from DJI today . . .
I wonder if they actually understand their logic issue yet? . . I don't . . . I just know it needs to be rethought. I think they have not been able to correctly define ALL operational scenarios to get it right. In Fact . . . I really think their whole approach to their attempt to control where you go is wrong. Here is how they responded.

=========== DJI COMMENT =============
For the new unlocking feature in DJI Go app 4, after you enable the unlocking feature, here will be a green circle on the DJI Go app's map.

Only when the aircraft is placed in this green zone, the unlocking feature will function. If you enter a value to the max flight altitude in the app, here will be another green circle which will mislead the pilot that he is in the specific zone which we have unlocked.

I understand the issue you mentioned that the red circle disappear but the unlocking does not work and i will report it to our R&D department for review.

We will advance this feature to make it more user-friendly.

Sorry for the inconvenience caused and your understanding is highly appreciated.

 

[Osmosis]

I posted UNLOCK NIGHTMARE a couple of days ago. This is a followup but not about the nightmare itself. I think I've figured out the DJI No-Fly logic . . and it's flawed.

If you get them (DJI) to UNLOCK your P4 for a certain location, they expect you to take-off from INSIDE that restricted zone. If you are on the edge you can start and fly. If you fly toward the zone it will stop you even if you have UNLOCKED the no-fly zone and you will bounce off the invisible GEO-FENCE.

If you persist and don't back off it will warn you and then take over command of your P4P and land. I found out you can actually move left and right not forward but back but you CAN NOT CLIMB once it tries to land. I was able to stop the decent at 1foot and fly around but not climb above the 1 foot.

However, if I carry it by hand inside the no-fly zone I can select the the UNLOCK and start but if I fly out of the zone and try and re-enter the zone I will be locked out. If I try to return it cautions me that I'm passing a No-fly zone and my RTH may fail. . . .and as I write this now I'm even more confused.!!!

Bottom line is : This whole no-fly protection DJI is messing with is not working and not useful when it does. It creates a Flight Safety issue by forcing the bird DOWN and landing by inhibiting RTH. Result it can land anywhere out of control . . technically a BUILT IN FLY_AWAY condition. This need to be completely rethought!

As soon as I UNLOCK like this
View attachment 86452

I get "Cannot Take off" even though I an IN the no-fly zone and UNLOCKED
If I am UNLOCK and take off OUTSIDE the zone I cannot fly INTO the zone
View attachment 86453

I had posted this in another Phantom Drone Forum, it applies here as well.

Here on the East Coast, it's almost impossible to fly with any DJI aircraft now because of the application software prevents flights near any airports. I fly our units Commercially under part 107, however, if within a 5 mile radius of any airport the DJI App will not allow ANYONE to fly without going through a bunch of steps within their Geo-System (DJI GEO System - Unlock Areas For Authorized Access).
So when you're setting up to fly at your location and IF you're lucky enough to have a tablet that has a cell card or if you are near an area with WiFi you will need to type your serial number and click on a couple of check boxes confirming you have permission to fly, if you don't then you're out of luck and need to pack it up and go home.
I've contacted DJI several times and pointed out that those with a part 107 UAV license should be allowed to fly in any Class E Airspace without their scrutiny, the FAA rules allow this but DJI does not... Furthermore, the new DJI software will not allow you to fly within Class D or Class B without answering a bunch of questions online and attaching documentation that you have permission to be in that airspace, this can take several days for them to review before unlocking. Furthermore, many of the Class D airspaces become class E after the tower closes, the DJI software does not recognize this.

A real mess that will soon be corrected with some good competition.

 

[David Cooke]

I had posted this in another Phantom Drone Forum, it applies here as well.

Here on the East Coast, it's almost impossible to fly with any DJI aircraft now because of the application software prevents flights near any airports. I fly our units Commercially under part 107, however, if within a 5 mile radius of any airport the DJI App will not allow ANYONE to fly without going through a bunch of steps within their Geo-System (DJI GEO System - Unlock Areas For Authorized Access).
So when you're setting up to fly at your location and IF you're lucky enough to have a tablet that has a cell card or if you are near an area with WiFi you will need to type your serial number and click on a couple of check boxes confirming you have permission to fly, if you don't then you're out of luck and need to pack it up and go home.
I've contacted DJI several times and pointed out that those with a part 107 UAV license should be allowed to fly in any Class E Airspace without their scrutiny, the FAA rules allow this but DJI does not... Furthermore, the new DJI software will not allow you to fly within Class D or Class B without answering a bunch of questions online and attaching documentation that you have permission to be in that airspace, this can take several days for them to review before unlocking. Furthermore, many of the Class D airspaces become class E after the tower closes, the DJI software does not recognize this.

A real mess that will soon be corrected with some good competition.

I'm with you on ALL points . . Canada isn't nearly as open minded as FAA or the Europeans even . . but it's still a few months before they lock down some pretty outdated and unjustified regs. . . Not sure if I'm having any actual influence but will give it a go . . DJI could participate better and benefit more . . but I think their cultural relationship with "the State" prevents it.

 

[Forcelite]

So are these restrictions located on the p4 firmware, or the app version? I have the newest app but very old firmware, (from June 2016) and I don't see any of these prompts. I do see a little pop up that does not interfere with flying
Thanks
Force

 

[David Cooke]

My understanding is it takes BOTH . . .The aircraft has the location information and controller has the limits. The No-fly function is based in the flight firmware ( a function which apparently you can turn OFF by flipping a bit) and the DJI Go4 app communicates the ability to flip that bit while flying if the controller can communicate with DJI servers and the UNLOCK has been approved ahead of time. Then you accept responsibility and the GO4 app informs the drone it can ignore the lock out routines . . at least until you land and restart the system.

I suggest keeping up with the latest firmware AND DJI Go4 and get the proper permissions . . . or simply buy a different drone. Other than this built-in "inconvenience" DJI drones and features are quite good. . . so that;'s a hard choice for me at least. I think DJI should re-think their NoFLY Zone procedures and come up with one based simply on tracking and approving the OPERATOR not the Drone. . . and stop all this policing and enforcement stuff.

 

[AWD]

I think DJI should re-think their NoFLY Zone procedures and come up with one based simply on tracking and approving the OPERATOR not the Drone. . . and stop all this policing and enforcement stuff.

Agree 100%.

AD

 

[u000gbk]

I posted UNLOCK NIGHTMARE a couple of days ago. This is a followup but not about the nightmare itself. I think I've figured out the DJI No-Fly logic . . and it's flawed.

If you get them (DJI) to UNLOCK your P4 for a certain location, they expect you to take-off from INSIDE that restricted zone. If you are on the edge you can start and fly. If you fly toward the zone it will stop you even if you have UNLOCKED the no-fly zone and you will bounce off the invisible GEO-FENCE.

If you persist and don't back off it will warn you and then take over command of your P4P and land. I found out you can actually move left and right not forward but back but you CAN NOT CLIMB once it tries to land. I was able to stop the decent at 1foot and fly around but not climb above the 1 foot.

However, if I carry it by hand inside the no-fly zone I can select the the UNLOCK and start but if I fly out of the zone and try and re-enter the zone I will be locked out. If I try to return it cautions me that I'm passing a No-fly zone and my RTH may fail. . . .and as I write this now I'm even more confused.!!!

Bottom line is : This whole no-fly protection DJI is messing with is not working and not useful when it does. It creates a Flight Safety issue by forcing the bird DOWN and landing by inhibiting RTH. Result it can land anywhere out of control . . technically a BUILT IN FLY_AWAY condition. This need to be completely rethought!

As soon as I UNLOCK like this
View attachment 86452

I get "Cannot Take off" even though I an IN the no-fly zone and UNLOCKED
If I am UNLOCK and take off OUTSIDE the zone I cannot fly INTO the zone
View attachment 86453

Is there any way for you to let DJI officially know about the issues and details of what you discovered? One would hope it may help them as they work on re-programming the last horrendous firmware release.

 

[That Cicero Guy]

DJI is not the FAA and they need to stop acting like it. I ran into an error today with the new app saying "error the max limits are 30m high and 50m distance" blah blah blah. And I was logged into the app. But because I went back to firmware 1.3 on the p4p and controller, it still flew 700+ feet out and 200 feet high. It does not enforce the restrictions on the firmware versions I'm using. The app didn't do this before the latest update. So they fix the disappearing map feature and they have some new app issues.

 

[u000gbk]

DJI is not the FAA and they need to stop acting like it. I ran into an error today with the new app saying "error the max limits are 30m high and 50m distance" blah blah blah. And I was logged into the app. But because I went back to firmware 1.3 on the p4p and controller, it still flew 700+ feet out and 200 feet high. It does not enforce the restrictions on the firmware versions I'm using. The app didn't do this before the latest update. So they fix the disappearing map feature and they have some new app issues.

They seriously do NOT believe in thorough regression testing of any software releases they publish ... it is really bad and I can't believe it isn't hurting their revenues overall ... people are really noticing the poor software quality as of late, especially when it often breaks more than it fixes.

 

[SteveP55]

Hi Guy's,
I'm not a pro flyer just recreational , I had a friend lose his Racing drone on top of a church building under construction, but is dormant now, it is a top of a 3 story flat roof, I know it's close to our big airport , with in a mile of it in fact, So we met out there, I was going to use my P4 or P3 advanced to try and retrieve it, No your not, It came up when I went to take off ," You are in a Red restricted No Fly zone, This was the DJI software for both Phantoms, So I tried Litchi on both, same thing, would not allow me to take off because the location in in the RED No Fly Zone. I've been reading all the above comments, and see even you PRO Pilots are dealing with the same issue. So is this issue still alive and well or has anyone figured a way around of some sort? I felt bad for my buddy, DJI made me look like an idiot LOL any way any info would be appreciated.
Thanks
SteveP55