How to Eliminate your flyaway concerns in 13 steps

[JimDE]

Todd, On that video I agree with the above poster about the string. One time you see it connected, another time you see it broken and swinging above the left front rotor and finally on the way down you can see it wrapped around the left front rotor. This entanglement would possibly cause that motor and ESC to malfunction.

I do not know if the line broke or just came untied or what but I am pretty sure it was not a prop guard caused crash but instead a line entanglement issue. But, the pilot surely would of seen that was the cause when he gathered up the unit. Hard not to see ....

 

[N017RW]

Nothing wrong with arguing.
It's the basis of debate.

ar·gue
[ahr-gyoo]
verb (used without object), ar·gued, ar·gu·ing.
1.- to present reasons for or against a thing: He argued in favor of prop guards.

Participation is voluntary.

EVERYONE is giving me English lessons today, I must really suck.

I guess my issue with the debate is the denial of the one fact, that we have no facts, should be the basis for telling other hobbyist that they shouldn't use prop guards. It has been my observation, anecdotal though it may be, that option varies on the effects of guards in flight. Without question they do add surface area, the effects of which could exacerbate VRS, but the truth is that's just conjecture.

Many of us use prop guards for a variety of reasons with no ill effects.

There's no denying the issue of the lack of facts on my part.
In fact (ha, ha) It was in the 'preamble' of my post.

TEHO

 

[ToddSmi]

Todd, On that video I agree with the above poster about the string. One time you see it connected, another time you see it broken and swinging above the left front rotor and finally on the way down you can see it wrapped around the left front rotor. This entanglement would possibly cause that motor and ESC to malfunction.

I do not know if the line broke or just came untied or what but I am pretty sure it was not a prop guard caused crash but instead a line entanglement issue. But, the pilot surely would of seen that was the cause when he gathered up the unit. Hard not to see ....

Ya, it does appear to involve the string line from the prop guards, which some people don't even use on their guards I suppose. Still kind of strange the way it was wobbling around even when the string was intact, and then it regained stability, and then lost it again. But I think you and Joe make good points...hard to pin this one to the guards themselves.

 

[Dalite]

Dr. Joe,

Great steps to help prevent a flyaway until DJI actuallly fixes the issue. To bad for the rest of us that read the manuals, watched the videos, downloaded all of the lastest firmware before flight and then expected the device to operate as advertised. Of course it doesn't but your steps help counteract the bugs in the logic.

For those thate want to get an understand of why flyaways are allmost sure to happen at some point if you don't follow Dr. Joe's steps (by the way flyaways still can occur since Dr. Joe's suggeswtions won't counteract all of the bugs but they will really help).

If you want to read about the details of the flyaway issues start here: http://www.djiguys.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3922&hilit=flyaway&start=15

Make no mistake until DJI fixes the issue(s), you will still have a probabilty of a flyaway but greatly reduced with Dr. Joe's procedures.

Railhound,

Interesting reading on the other forum. I see you have met Mr YouTube and have been introduced to the effects of trying to introduce a multi-dimensional concept to a one-dimensional thinker.

Trust me, Ignore is your friend. Some folks just don't have the ability to understand that things don't always work the way they are supposed, and the more autonomous routines there are, the more chances there are to initiate autonomous reactions. I gave up on having a rational discussion with your northern friend about the concerns the GPS OEM had and just blocked his ID on one forum, and left some of the other groups where he and his possee frequent.

I had some exchanges with uBlox concerning use of their module in hobby oriented toys and design weaknesses. They are aware of the lack of shielding and the GPS backup battery issues, as well as the effects of electrical hash generated by the GoPro. As of the last contact I had with engineering, an Application Note addressing some of this was in the works.

I hope that DJI revisits the firmware development and adds some error checking to make the firmware more fault tolerant and allow it to filter and trap bad data; rather than reacting to obviously impossible location data from one timer tic to another.

When you try to discuss a multi-dimensional hypothesis, you have to qualify the responses made by others and determine if they are capable of anything beyond one dimensional thought. If you find they don't possess the depth of understanding needed to provide useful input; it is sometimes best to just accept, pity, and move on. Again, Ignore is sometimes your best friend...

I appreciate the effort you made in trying to outline what you experienced, and share the frustration that certain others create by their lack of ability to accept real world possibilities that differ from their concept of reality.

 

[Rebelvis]

Thanks for understanding my point, Carl. There is so much misinformation and outright BS on all these forums it's hard for newbees to sift through it and get good advice. Perhaps it's understandable since the V+ is so amazing that folks who've never touched a RC transmitter much less flown a quad are lured into getting one. After a few successful flights they then become experts and dispense their recently-acquired wisdom as absolute truths.

Thanks 17RW, for a thoughtful and intelligent reply. I guess I'm tiring of some folks presenting as fact their opinion on these things based on anecdotal evidence and/or personal bias. My guess is the verdict is out and likely to remain so.

I put them on, I take them off all the time, and have no more or less issue with VRS either way. Since opinion is fact now, the people that "claim" prop guards are causing VRS are too hot on the **** stick, fact! :lol:

And Rebelvis you could argue til the cows come home, but I don't think some of them would know empirical data if they tripped over it. You can tell by the way they continued to argue...

Thx for posting though, it's nice to know there is some sanity in the world.

 

[Flying Cephlopod]

Someone else had posted the following link, and for the life of me I cannot locate the message. The following website shows you good, marginal, and poor satellite availability for a given location, on a given day, throughout the day:

http://satpredictor.navcomtech.com/

For example, at my location the website shows 6 or few satellites are available around 5:00 AM and at 4:00 PM today (7 June 2014).

GPS satellite availability is variable throughout the day.

The blame game on fly-aways and lost GPS signals has been far and wide...

We can but reduce our risks.

 

[N017RW]

Dr. Joe,

Great steps to help prevent a flyaway until DJI actuallly fixes the issue. To bad for the rest of us that read the manuals, watched the videos, downloaded all of the lastest firmware before flight and then expected the device to operate as advertised. Of course it doesn't but your steps help counteract the bugs in the logic.

For those thate want to get an understand of why flyaways are allmost sure to happen at some point if you don't follow Dr. Joe's steps (by the way flyaways still can occur since Dr. Joe's suggeswtions won't counteract all of the bugs but they will really help).

If you want to read about the details of the flyaway issues start here: http://www.djiguys.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3922&hilit=flyaway&start=15

Make no mistake until DJI fixes the issue(s), you will still have a probabilty of a flyaway but greatly reduced with Dr. Joe's procedures.

Railhound,

Interesting reading on the other forum. I see you have met Mr YouTube and have been introduced to the effects of trying to introduce a multi-dimensional concept to a one-dimensional thinker.

Trust me, Ignore is your friend. Some folks just don't have the ability to understand that things don't always work the way they are supposed, and the more autonomous routines there are, the more chances there are to initiate autonomous reactions. I gave up on having a rational discussion with your northern friend about the concerns the GPS OEM had and just blocked his ID on one forum, and left some of the other groups where he and his possee frequent.

I had some exchanges with uBlox concerning use of their module in hobby oriented toys and design weaknesses. They are aware of the lack of shielding and the GPS backup battery issues, as well as the effects of electrical hash generated by the GoPro. As of the last contact I had with engineering, an Application Note addressing some of this was in the works.

I hope that DJI revisits the firmware development and adds some error checking to make the firmware more fault tolerant and allow it to filter and trap bad data; rather than reacting to obviously impossible location data from one timer tic to another.

When you try to discuss a multi-dimensional hypothesis, you have to qualify the responses made by others and determine if they are capable of anything beyond one dimensional thought. If you find they don't possess the depth of understanding needed to provide useful input; it is sometimes best to just accept, pity, and move on. Again, Ignore is sometimes your best friend...

I appreciate the effort you made in trying to outline what you experienced, and share the frustration that certain others create by their lack of ability to accept real world possibilities that differ from their concept of reality.

Why do you need to block or ignore posters?
Can't you just pass or withhold a response?

If you feel you need to leave [other groups] because others can't keep up with your multi-dimensioal conceptual discussions... Maybe you were in the wrong place.

It's really about how you treat those who may not agree with you that matters.

I'll assume I'm on ignore or being blocked now :lol: .

 

[Dalite]

Dr. Joe,

Great steps to help prevent a flyaway until DJI actuallly fixes the issue. To bad for the rest of us that read the manuals, watched the videos, downloaded all of the lastest firmware before flight and then expected the device to operate as advertised. Of course it doesn't but your steps help counteract the bugs in the logic.

For those thate want to get an understand of why flyaways are allmost sure to happen at some point if you don't follow Dr. Joe's steps (by the way flyaways still can occur since Dr. Joe's suggeswtions won't counteract all of the bugs but they will really help).

If you want to read about the details of the flyaway issues start here: http://www.djiguys.com/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3922&hilit=flyaway&start=15

Make no mistake until DJI fixes the issue(s), you will still have a probabilty of a flyaway but greatly reduced with Dr. Joe's procedures.

Railhound,

Interesting reading on the other forum. I see you have met Mr YouTube and have been introduced to the effects of trying to introduce a multi-dimensional concept to a one-dimensional thinker.

Trust me, Ignore is your friend. Some folks just don't have the ability to understand that things don't always work the way they are supposed, and the more autonomous routines there are, the more chances there are to initiate autonomous reactions. I gave up on having a rational discussion with your northern friend about the concerns the GPS OEM had and just blocked his ID on one forum, and left some of the other groups where he and his possee frequent.

I had some exchanges with uBlox concerning use of their module in hobby oriented toys and design weaknesses. They are aware of the lack of shielding and the GPS backup battery issues, as well as the effects of electrical hash generated by the GoPro. As of the last contact I had with engineering, an Application Note addressing some of this was in the works.

I hope that DJI revisits the firmware development and adds some error checking to make the firmware more fault tolerant and allow it to filter and trap bad data; rather than reacting to obviously impossible location data from one timer tic to another.

When you try to discuss a multi-dimensional hypothesis, you have to qualify the responses made by others and determine if they are capable of anything beyond one dimensional thought. If you find they don't possess the depth of understanding needed to provide useful input; it is sometimes best to just accept, pity, and move on. Again, Ignore is sometimes your best friend...

I appreciate the effort you made in trying to outline what you experienced, and share the frustration that certain others create by their lack of ability to accept real world possibilities that differ from their concept of reality.

Why do you need to block or ignore posters?
Can't you just pass or withhold a response?

If you feel you need to leave [other groups] because others can't keep up with your multi-dimensioal conceptual discussions... Maybe you were in the wrong place.

It's really about how you treat those who may not agree with you that matters.

I'll assume I'm on ignore or being blocked now :lol: .

Not at all. You will have to put a lot more effort than that.

Discussion is fine; sharing info is better. Helping others is even better.

Banging your head against a brick wall loses it's appeal quite rapidly.

 

[N017RW]

Ok cool

You really expect everyone on the web to agree with you, now matter how strongly you feel?

You've got a lot of head-banging to come ! :lol:

(Or just drop it.)

 

[Dalite]

Ok cool

You really expect everyone on the web to agree with you, now matter how strongly you feel?

You've got a lot of head-banging to come ! :lol:

(Or just drop it.)

Negative on the expectations. It is a concern for the situation that occurs when folks are working together and sharing info towards a common good; when faced with a problem.

The situation arises when something doesn't perform as it is supposed to and there are undefined variables that could be the cause.

As folks collectively work together to share info and isolate/eliminate theories and start to approach a possible solution that someone always enters in to convince others that what they just experienced, explained, provided video, etc - simply just didn't happen. Then they proceed to read the manual on what is supposed to happen and make various videos of things working properly and use that as a springboard to stop any collective reasoning or even acknowledgement that there was anything to discuss.

It is the age old problem of not being able to accept anything that has not happened to you as reality. This is not an isolated situation; there are many here that never felt anything that has not happened to them is even possible. For many, the concept of reality is mirror that is limited to only what they have experienced. For others, the concept of their personal reality expands by being able to acknowledge that others may have experienced life more fully than yourself, and have info to share. Info is not necessarily an absolute; merely a possiblity for further exploration.

It is somewhat of an unbalanced where there are some that have spent a lot of time trying to isolate nuances and form hypothesis based on the belief that what they just saw or experienced really happened. The other side of that equation is the hypothesis that if it hasn't happened to you, what everyone else has experienced is wrong because things haven't ( yet) worked out that way for you.

Somewhere between those two approaches is a lot of unexplored possibilities. Whenever I see someone providing plausible information that hasn't been considered before being dismantled by those that set out to prove that nothing wrong has happened, i see it as an interruption in the info sharing and problem solving process.

It is, apparently, a character flaw that I feel this way. I never expect anyone to agree with me out of any sort of obligation. I really do appreciate discussion that can help on understanding further.

I find the GPS board design and the manner in which the NAZA massages the data from the GPS module and the Compass data stream that passes through the GPS board to be one strong possibility for unpiloted flight. I also sense that the mechanical sensors within the flight controller are another cause for concern. Given the current design, those 2 items are not going to stop being a concern. It is the hope that efforts to get the highest level of data integrity presented to the flight controller, combined with finding the firmware weaknesses in fault tolerance that allow the possibility of it executing autonomous routines based on what appears to be bad data could be the focus of the conversation; rather than time wasted deflecting those who claimed what you just saw didn't actually happen by uploading a YouTube video of proper operation where it didn't happen, or spending a lot of time trying to recreate the failure using methods that weren't in play at the time of the reported failure.

None of what I, individually, think or feel is going to correct any oversights or design flaws. All I can try to do is find ways to mitigate what is possible to mitigate, try to avoid what there is no solution for and be willing to chance that each flight will be the one in which I lose the guessing game.

BTW, I have not yet had any flyaways. I currently have 3 Phantoms, and have had 4. Only one of then went walkabout, and it was due to a stuck NAZA sensor on it's 4th battery pack. The seller gladly let me make an exchange. But, just because I have not had the fly away experience doesn't put me on a crusade to convince others that it is not a possibility.

 

[ToThePoint]

@Dr Joe

I maybe have some more tips.
I experienced that when running low on battery the phantom hasn't have the power anymore to do quick compensations when its going hard and then you release the sticks. It tries to stabilize but can't and the you get that rocking wobbling motion and eventually crashing hard. Low on battery and coming in fast, release the sticks gently.

What i also do is after a flight i feel with my fingers the temp of the motors. Due to the design its easy.
The motors temp are feeling warm, not hot so it doesn't harm in any way.
Also you can feel that there is a difference in temperature of the motors.
Now if the temperature is ok to feel it with your fingers there is one issue here.
fingers aren't that sensitive. A more sensitive device to feel temperature is also provided.
Your lips. With them you can be more precise on the temperature difference between the motors.
I noticed that way the back left motor was way hotter then the other 3.
So i disassembled that motor to give it a close inspection.
Maybe there was some dirt in it but after that it whent cooler on the next flight.
Anyway a motor that is not 100% has to work harder and therefore getting hotter.
Its a practice that i have incorporated because i don't want to loose it due to some motor failure.
And you may have a good laugh on me by kissing all 4 motor in your mind, but actually i am feeling the temperature with mother natures given sensitive device that you don't have to buy nor will ever forget @ home.

 

[Railhound]

Ok cool

You really expect everyone on the web to agree with you, now matter how strongly you feel?

You've got a lot of head-banging to come ! :lol:

(Or just drop it.)

Negative on the expectations. It is a concern for the situation that occurs when folks are working together and sharing info towards a common good; when faced with a problem.

The situation arises when something doesn't perform as it is supposed to and there are undefined variables that could be the cause.

As folks collectively work together to share info and isolate/eliminate theories and start to approach a possible solution that someone always enters in to convince others that what they just experienced, explained, provided video, etc - simply just didn't happen. Then they proceed to read the manual on what is supposed to happen and make various videos of things working properly and use that as a springboard to stop any collective reasoning or even acknowledgement that there was anything to discuss.

It is the age old problem of not being able to accept anything that has not happened to you as reality. This is not an isolated situation; there are many here that never felt anything that has not happened to them is even possible. For many, the concept of reality is mirror that is limited to only what they have experienced. For others, the concept of their personal reality expands by being able to acknowledge that others may have experienced life more fully than yourself, and have info to share. Info is not necessarily an absolute; merely a possiblity for further exploration.

It is somewhat of an unbalanced where there are some that have spent a lot of time trying to isolate nuances and form hypothesis based on the belief that what they just saw or experienced really happened. The other side of that equation is the hypothesis that if it hasn't happened to you, what everyone else has experienced is wrong because things haven't ( yet) worked out that way for you.

Somewhere between those two approaches is a lot of unexplored possibilities. Whenever I see someone providing plausible information that hasn't been considered before being dismantled by those that set out to prove that nothing wrong has happened, i see it as an interruption in the info sharing and problem solving process.

It is, apparently, a character flaw that I feel this way. I never expect anyone to agree with me out of any sort of obligation. I really do appreciate discussion that can help on understanding further.

I find the GPS board design and the manner in which the NAZA massages the data from the GPS module and the Compass data stream that passes through the GPS board to be one strong possibility for unpiloted flight. I also sense that the mechanical sensors within the flight controller are another cause for concern. Given the current design, those 2 items are not going to stop being a concern. It is the hope that efforts to get the highest level of data integrity presented to the flight controller, combined with finding the firmware weaknesses in fault tolerance that allow the possibility of it executing autonomous routines based on what appears to be bad data could be the focus of the conversation; rather than time wasted deflecting those who claimed what you just saw didn't actually happen by uploading a YouTube video of proper operation where it didn't happen, or spending a lot of time trying to recreate the failure using methods that weren't in play at the time of the reported failure.

None of what I, individually, think or feel is going to correct any oversights or design flaws. All I can try to do is find ways to mitigate what is possible to mitigate, try to avoid what there is no solution for and be willing to chance that each flight will be the one in which I lose the guessing game.

BTW, I have not yet had any flyaways. I currently have 3 Phantoms, and have had 4. Only one of then went walkabout, and it was due to a stuck NAZA sensor on it's 4th battery pack. The seller gladly let me make an exchange. But, just because I have not had the fly away experience doesn't put me on a crusade to convince others that it is not a possibility.

Dalite - Thank you. For some reason I hadn't seen your messages until now (probably didn't click the notify box).

Well this is about the best message I have ever seen written anywhere on problem solving. Obviously you have spent time debugging problem situations and have had the experience of the coming together of a solution or possible solution utilizing the input of many sources. I have spent many years debugging code that I was or others were absolutely sure was supposed to work. Once a few new eyes got on the problem and different people put forward their ideas - inevitably the eureka moment arrives when you find the bug.

Clearly, you welcome objective and thoughtful input but have no time for rude, arrogant or disruptive input. No one can solve problems that way. We are in the same camp as folks like Dr. Joe, BigChuck Rossetti and others that put ideas out there for thoughtful objective input.

If you don't mind I am going to post several links to your post in other locations because I believe many would benefit from your message.

 

[N017RW]

"Fly-away" as it turns out is a poor term for the loss, or perceived loss, of control of these a/c.
Fortunately, it now seems 'fly-away' is becoming more a verb than a noun.

This is good as it shows more understanding of the system dynamics.

In the recent past an f-a was an unexplainable event causing the loss of control or flight that left the operator crestfallen and wondering 'what [just] happened'?

Now we understand many of the situations that can lead to these losses. Most are human error by the purchaser while the rest are design or equipment issues.

I don't really know what is being said here as it is too vague to be meaningful at a technical level:
"I find the GPS board design and the manner in which the NAZA massages the data from the GPS module and the Compass data stream that passes through the GPS board to be one strong possibility for unpiloted flight."

The NAZA-M is not the top of the line FC so it is not surprising that it does not perform as well as other FCs.

The Phantom is an under-actuated, and in some places over-designed, a/c.
It has a very low fault tolerance for component failure.

However, in my experience, it's true failure rate is about the same as any other r/c a/c I've owned.

 

[Railhound]

" Most are human error by the purchaser ...

And just how do you know that? From what I have read and from what has happened to me personally all of the flyaways - meaning uncontrolled flight often involving the complete loss of the device - were because the systems failed. These systems failures are documented all over the internet.

The system failures included many or all of these:

* Return to home not working despite >=6 satellites at take off and during flight
* Controls not working. Simply letting the controls go should cause the device to hover and not to continuously fly away in some random direction. No response to reduce altitude or change direction. Sometimes these failures even occurred in ATTI mode although my research shows that most appear to happen in GPS mode.
* Loss of communication with the smartphone application
* Erratic flight behaviour even for the most experienced pilots

And one other failure: A complete disregard for the customer and no response from DJI concerning these issues. I have been emailing them for over a month and have gotten little more that automated responses saying my "problem has been solved". This is the same response experienced by many. Do some research and you'll see how many people complain of the same thing.

My advice to those who still have their Phantoms is to:

1) Get a GPS tracker or radio type tracker and attach it to your Phantom so you can recover it when it does flyaway (assuming you want to - maybe it hit someone)
2) Make up a pre-flight check list - (Google "Dr. Joe DJI" and you'll get a good start)
3) Do not leave your Phantom 2 in the default Phantom mode. Put it into NAZA-M mode so you can switch it into ATTI or even manual mode to maybe give you a prayer at recovering control
4) Check out BigChuck Rossetti's DJI flyaway video on Youtube. Follow his suggestion to reduce errors in GPS home location locks. In summary, he suggests powering up the device and once the green lights are on (GPS lock >=6 satellites) and prior to powering up the motors, walk the Phantom around 10-20 meters or so, so it will recalculate its location several times thus hopefully correcting an initial home location GPS error reading.
5) Do not fly around any people. When you lose control you may not have time to recover - if you can recover - before it could hit someone.
6) If you are using your active cell phone, I would turn off the network and Bluetooth connections to reduce potential interference. Leave only the WIFI on. (You might even want to turn off the phone's own GPS systems) I haven't quite figured it out but I think the cell phone itself maybe a source of interference. Besides the radio interference, who knows what happens if you receive a call or text message while flying. Maybe nothing - I don't know but why take a chance?

It is unfortunate because when the device works as advertised it is marvellous. But it has firmware (and software?) bugs in it that will bite you in the butt when you least expect it. So, hope for the best and plan for the worst.

 

[N017RW]

Railhound,

Caveat Emptor.

You 'passion' for this is well understood (by me).

It is unfortunate that you and others have had bad experiences.

Since I don't believe in luck (or Hope), I can only attribute our differences to probability.
I can take measures to increase or decrease the probability of something occurring.
In this case I try to reduce the probability of failure by applying my experience and that which I am currently learning from others.

R/c a/c are dangerous and prone to fault so I do not expect that there won't be problems but I do see the Phantom for what it is despite P.R. or marketing information thus I would not recommend it to beginners or 'for everyone' as has been done.

If the Phantom masses were introduced to r/c a/c through Clubs and other similar interest groups offering training and other assistance there would be fewer failures at worst and losses at best.

There is no substitute for training and experience.

 

[Flying Cephlopod]

I perceive that some people don't realize that it's about risk reduction--the probabilities.

Perhaps the binary topic title "Eliminate..." is misleading?

 

[phantomguy]

http://tinyurl.com/djiflyaway

 

[Railhound]

Railhound,
Caveat Emptor.

Hey that's a good idea. I wonder how useful that would be if you bought an automobile and the steering wheel came off in your hands. No steering ... Caveat Emptor. Too bad for you.

There is no substitute for training and experience.

And a device that works.

 

[Railhound]

http://tinyurl.com/djiflyaway

That is a really interesting video. Obviously a fault in the Return to Home logic. Man this sure looks like a device that is fighting with itself. It is spinning round and round. Looks like a classic firmware race condition. In any case, there clearly is an error in the device. Some kids found it 1.75 miles away from the launch site. The guy put his cell number on it and they phoned him.