How is about the drone flights in UK ?

[gingerbloke]

I've cancelled my NT membership because of their drone policy, two other family members have done the same. It's the only valid response to this kind of nonsense.

 

[Viewfinder]

All very good and valid advice - but let's not forget the OP will be a tourist visitor to the UK and not a 'local' and, I am sure, the last thing that he would wish to get involved in during his holiday would be any kind of verbal conflict nor, (Heaven forbid!) any sort of legal case.

Yes, of course. But it wouldn't do any harm for him to have a copy of the CAA leaflet and the CLA advice with him, just in case.
Cornwall is lovely, here's a still I took in 2016, flying from our boat at Polperro:

 

[andy_k]

The National Trust is relying on fear and kidology to try and sustain their unlawful policy which amounts to a blanket ban on aerial activity over their land, recited here as 'All aerial activity above our sites is prohibited unless specific permission is granted, according to an existing byelaw.', and here as 'The use of UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles) or drones as they are more commonly known, is not permitted on or over National Trust land as part of our byelaws.'

The National trust's byelaws are here. The only byelaws which might be relevant are these:

• 9(a) which prohibits molesting and disturbing living creatures
• 11(a)(iii) which prohibits riding or driving 'any conveyance over or upon Trust Property otherwise than upon roads, tracks and waterways authorised for the use of such conveyance.' - the wording makes it clear that the draftsman contemplated "conveyances" being grounded, not in the air, notwithstanding the note which states: “conveyance” includes any air.... vehicle'. In other words the idea was to prevent aircraft from taking off or landing on Trust property, not over-flying (which I deal with below)
• 11(b) - 'No person shall ride or drive any conveyance to the danger or annoyance of or without due consideration for other persons resorting to Trust Property' - there would have to be real (not imagined) danger or annoyance for an action under this byelaw to succeed
• 17 prohibits photography for hire or reward, but so does the ANO for unqualified pilots
  
• 24. No person shall on Trust Property wilfully obstruct, disturb, interrupt or annoy any other person in the proper use and enjoyment of such property - see my comment on 11(b) above

I would say that if it came to a real fight and you are (1) taking off from land which is not owned by the National Trust, and (2) complying with both the ANO and the CAA code, and (3) not causing direct harm to wildlife they haven't got a leg to stand on because compliance with those rules is going to make it very hard to prove (and they do have to prove) that you are infringing byelaws 11(b) and 24. And even if they succeed the penalty is £20! And you only have to pay that if they prosecute and achieve a summary conviction. See byelaw 26.

I really do not see how the National Trust byelaws could possibly overcome the principals which I described in a previous post where I said:-
Owners of properties which are not excluded by the ANO cannot prevent you over-flying their properties provided you are at a reasonable height and you do not make such frequent over-flights that you could be guilty of harassment. Here are some excerpts from a legal briefing note prepared by the Country Land and Business Association Limited: 'However, for non-commercial drone pilots that do not respond to a polite request the answer for now seems to be that aside from a potentially costly action for an infringement of your privacy or trying to convince the police that the flights amount to a criminal harassment there is little you can do to prevent them.... Section s76(1) Civil Aviation Act 1982 prevents claims being brought in trespass or nuisance against aircraft, provided they are flying at a reasonable height and comply with the Air Navigation Order.... Landowners in England and Wales are not entitled to all the airspace above their land, the position is well summed up by Griffiths J in Bernstein of Leigh v Skyviews & General Limited [1978] 1QB 479.'

I have printed several copies of the CLA briefing note and I carry them with me ready to hand out if anyone accosts me. I would have no hesitation in using this defence against a charge that I had over-flown National Trust land. You can download it here: https://www.cla.org.uk/sites/default/files/GN10-17 Drones and Private Property 2017.pdf

Of course if you are taking off from National Trust land then, yes, they can tell you not to. But if you pack up and go home I really don't see what practical remedy they would have. My advice would be to record any confrontation on your phone, and tell the person who is confronting you that this is what you are doing as evidence for your defence.

I do love how the 'they don't own the airspace' quote pops up on every drone group whilst being totally wrong under UK law - the owner of the land has the right to enjoy and use the airspace above their property (Kelsen versus Imperial Tobacco 1957) so please don't perpetuate that particular myth

Here's a simple example

Your next door neighbour owns a large tree that grows over your property - in the airspace your logic says you have no right to. After all, the tree is in his garden However, you see it as an intrusion and detracts from your enjoyment of the space over your land and quite rightly cut it down

Another neighbour decides to erect a 100ft counter balanced crane in his garden so he can build a new extension - you quite rightly (and legally) object because he is in the space above your land so he is denied permission.
http://e-lawresources.co.uk/Land/Anchor-Brewhouse-Developments-v-Berkley-House.php

You want to fly a drone over your neighbour's garden and you think that's OK

The Civil Aviation Act of 1982 has now been replaced with more modern legislation but be careful what you wish for when applying the rules for manned aircraft with those specifically written for unmanned aircraft - manned aircraft are (without written permission from the CAA) allowed to fly within 500' of people, structures and vessels not under their control or 1000' of congested areas! We aren't governed by those rules so we can't just mix and match rules to make them work for us.

The National Trust have had a by-law in place since 1965 banning powered flight from their land - before you start contesting these rules, make sure you know who's land you are standing on - see the map I linked to earlier, the NT have a huge land bank often extending many acres beyond their boundaries.

Remember, if the National Trust decide to call the Police they can easily book you under section 241 of the ANO - the onus will be on you to prove that you weren't flying recklessly or endangering people. The only defence you will have is your flight log and any risk assessment/mitigation survey you have prepared prior to the flight. If you have nine of those and your flight log shows you have taken off without the land owner's permission you have been negligent. If you've flown beyond VLOS you've (in the eyes of the law) been reckless so will have a hard time proving otherwise.

 

[andy_k]

I've cancelled my NT membership because of their drone policy, two other family members have done the same. It's the only valid response to this kind of nonsense.

it's a ridiculous response - that law has been in place since 1965!

If you actually cared you would never have joined - oh, hang on, you only care now that you are affected

 

[Steve7777]

I love a good debate, most certainly, but the thread was originally started by the OP to get some useful and, probably, pretty lightweight and friendly advice about what he can and what he shouldn't do when holidaying in Cornwall..

I personally think that he now has enough info, hopefully, to get him through.

If you want to start a debate about the 'rights and wrongs of the NT', then find a suitable thread - or even start a new one if nothing exists already...

 

[andy_k]

Interesting fact....

The National Trust appear to have removed the clause from their by-laws banning powered model aircraft

It still appears in this document

http://www.tourisminsights.info/ONL...at National Trust Properties, NT, London..pdf

As Steve says, another time, another thread

 

[gingerbloke]

I could never have afforded a drone back in 1965! but I did drop my membership years ago after speaking to a particularly officious local NT director about aerial photography.

Joking aside, 2 things come to mind:

- Where we chose to spend our cash is often the only form of real democracy we can exercise.

- NT used to seek to be very inclusive (as my kids grew up I enjoyed their attempts to make the venues more interesting to families) - but recently it has become very focused on older people (lots of golf carts to whiz OAPs about). They could easily embrace drones (organised drones days at the local stately home / castle, check for insurance, encourage safe practices) but instead they go in heavy handed or seek to make even more £££

And don't get me started on their recent changes to NT coffee shops.....

it's a ridiculous response - that law has been in place since 1965!

If you actually cared you would never have joined - oh, hang on, you only care now that you are affected

 

[Steve7777]

And don't get me started on their recent changes to NT coffee shops.....

Well preferably not on this thread anyway....

 

[gingerbloke]

OP - UK is a great place for drone photography, in my experience the general public are positive and the UK has many areas where you won't see another soul. I've found good responses from private owners of castles, gardens, large country houses.

I'm off to look for the NT thread now....