Flying a golf course tomorrow.

[FL_Mike]

Tomorrow I get to fly a golf course I worked at for a couple of years. I'm still on good terms with the superintendent of the course and he has spoken to everyone involved with course decisions (GM and the Greens committee) and I have full permission. We're both really excited about the flight.

I'll be flying for my own recreation under 336. I've already explained that I can not use any pictures for the course for use on the website, blogs, newsletters etc. He seems to understand. I'll go over all of this again tomorrow just to be sure he gets it.

So, here's my question. Some of the shots I get tomorrow could be of high value to him and I know he's going to want a copy of them. Having a birds eye view would be priceless to any superintendent, especially one that just spent $100,000 on fertilizer he is about to apply. Should I allow him to have a few choice photos? Should We just look at them on my laptop and then just say thanks and be on my way?

It's a personal dilemma. I plan on getting the 107a shortly, hopefully by the middle of summer and I don't want to risk any trouble that could jeopardize that license or accrue any fines etc.

Looking forward to the input of the members here and as always I apologize in advance if I posted this in the wrong place.

 

[CMEFLYDRONES]

Sounds like you may have a real opportunity to make some $ so why not just delay the shoot a few weeks, course will probably be in better shape anyways. Get your 107 and have the option to sell photos and video?

 

[FL_Mike]

Sounds like you may have a real opportunity to make some $ so why not just delay the shoot a few weeks, course will probably be in better shape anyways. Get your 107 and have the option to sell photos and video?

I agree, I think I can create a decent side job flying courses as we have hundreds around here.

As for this flight it really is personal. I did a lot of hard work on the course when it went through a total renovation a few years ago and I now have this new perspective to get. Additionally, I consider the super a friend first, and old boss second.

I've taken some amazing sunrise photos in various places and now I have the opportunity to get a special one just for me and I won't be on the clock, so I actually can spend time waiting for that perfect opportunity without the boss wondering why I'm just sitting around.

 

[CMEFLYDRONES]

If strictly for your enjoyment then no issue. What I remember from studying for 107 is that if you ever sell photos then it becomes retroactively “commercial” making you in violation even if you have the 107 at the time you profit.

 

[FL_Mike]

If strictly for your enjoyment then no issue. What I remember from studying for 107 is that if you ever sell photos then it becomes retroactively “commercial” making you in violation even if you have the 107 at the time you profit.

So I can't use anything I get now later on for profit. (If I'm following you correctly.)

No problem, I honestly don't plan to.

Now, what if I just post video to youtube or photos to some hosting service? Technically these would be for personal use and he could view them anytime. I'm even thinking I could watermark them in some way like "not for commercial use" etc.

I'm not trying to find loopholes or dodge laws. I'm trying to have a flight just like I would at a park or the beach and share them with friends. So far the extent of my sharing has been via email or text message etc.

Thanks for your input. Still trying to learn the ins and outs of this UAV thing and all the mystical laws about it.

 

[RunningWithScissors]

What I remember from studying for 107 is that if you ever sell photos then it becomes retroactively “commercial” making you in violation even if you have the 107 at the time you profit.

I recall a recent discussion over what was interpreted as an intent to use/distribute photos/video obtained during a recreational flight for commercial benefit very similar to what you're suggesting. I'm not qualified to speak on this subject, but I'm sure that BigAl or one of the other moderators are well qualified to address your question.

 

[BigAl07]

Here's the "catch".... you've already created your own "tangled web" by admitting, on a public forum, that you're already thinking about selling pictures you "might" take. You've already closed your own loophole (And publicly) for this being a 336 flight.

Do what's right and get your Part 107 so you are legal, ethical, and moral.


To clarify, it's the INTENT of the flight as to if it's hobby or commercial and if you intend to "possibly sell" those photos..... well you already know how that would go if the FAA were to get involved (which is highly unlikely unless someone reports you or the golf course when they see the images online.... happened to me in 2016).

 

[BigAl07]

So I can't use anything I get now later on for profit. (If I'm following you correctly.)

No problem, I honestly don't plan to.

Now, what if I just post video to youtube or photos to some hosting service? Technically these would be for personal use and he could view them anytime. I'm even thinking I could watermark them in some way like "not for commercial use" etc.

I'm not trying to find loopholes or dodge laws. I'm trying to have a flight just like I would at a park or the beach and share them with friends. So far the extent of my sharing has been via email or text message etc.

Thanks for your input. Still trying to learn the ins and outs of this UAV thing and all the mystical laws about it.

You can "share" them on social media, YT, or where ever to your heart's desire. When you "deliver them" for someone else to use (in any way) you now have a product and you're left 336 in your shadows.

The "loophole" is if you're up flying recreationally and you later have something that someone wants to purchase you can sell it to them because "at the time of the flight" you had no intention/desire to sell the images. You shouldn't have a problem doing this once in a while but if you do it repeatedly, and IF the FAA comes looking (I stress IF) and they can demonstrate a pattern then you "might" have an issue. Keep in mind that any infractions with the FAA can have an ill effect on getting your license etc later down the road. Think long-term not just about today.

 

[FL_Mike]

Here's the "catch".... you've already created your own "tangled web" by admitting, on a public forum, that you're already thinking about selling pictures you "might" take. You've already closed your own loophole (And publicly) for this being a 336 flight.

Do what's right and get your Part 107 so you are legal, ethical, and moral.


To clarify, it's the INTENT of the flight as to if it's hobby or commercial and if you intend to "possibly sell" those photos..... well you already know how that would go if the FAA were to get involved (which is highly unlikely unless someone reports you or the golf course when they see the images online.... happened to me in 2016).

I have absolutely no intention of selling any photos or video to anyone for any reason before I have my 107. I also understand that any photos or video taken before I have that 107 can not be sold later.

My intent with the flights over this course are purely to develop my skills as a pilot. Can I make money in the future? Yes, that is a possibility, but it is not possible under my current circumstances. I understand this.

Thank you for your input. Nowhere in my post did I claim I intend to profit from this flight.

 

[BigAl07]

I have absolutely no intention of selling any photos or video to anyone for any reason before I have my 107. I also understand that any photos or video taken before I have that 107 can not be sold later.

My intent with the flights over this course are purely to develop my skills as a pilot. Can I make money in the future? Yes, that is a possibility, but it is not possible under my current circumstances. I understand this.

Thahank you for your input. Nowhere in my post did I claim I intend to profit from this flight.

I might have misunderstood your initial post and if so I do apologize.

 

[FL_Mike]

You can "share" them on social media, YT, or where ever to your heart's desire. When you "deliver them" for someone else to use (in any way) you now have a product and you're left 336 in your shadows.

The "loophole" is if you're up flying recreationally and you later have something that someone wants to purchase you can sell it to them because "at the time of the flight" you had no intention/desire to sell the images. You shouldn't have a problem doing this once in a while but if you do it repeatedly, and IF the FAA comes looking (I stress IF) and they can demonstrate a pattern then you "might" have an issue. Keep in mind that any infractions with the FAA can have an ill effect on getting your license etc later down the road. Think long-term not just about today.

Thank you. I think the safest route is a hosting site and even a watermark that the photos are for recreational use only. My concerns were mostly my friend having the original raw image and where that leaves me legally if he uses it against my wishes.

Today was way too windy to fly, but I did get to have a long talk with my friend. He understands my concerns and we're on the same page as far as the law is concerned. He's kind enough to allow me a good space to hone my skills. He'll get the same opportunity to view the images as anyone else, through a link that is public in nature.

 

[BigAl07]

Thank you. I think the safest route is a hosting site and even a watermark that the photos are for recreational use only. My concerns were mostly my friend having the original raw image and where that leaves me legally if he uses it against my wishes.

Today was way too windy to fly, but I did get to have a long talk with my friend. He understands my concerns and we're on the same page as far as the law is concerned. He's kind enough to allow me a good space to hone my skills. He'll get the same opportunity to view the images as anyone else, through a link that is public in nature.

Outstanding! It's best to get your Part 107 sooner than later because this type of market is going to get gobbled up QUICKLY as things get prettier this spring. FYI Golf Course work is going to be a crowded market because I'm seeing LOTS of people talking about going after that sector on a national level. I know this to be fact because I've had a phone interview with someone who is building a platform specifically for Golf Course work. Get in while you can my friend and Safe Flights

 

[Wilbur]

You can "share" them on social media, YT, or where ever to your heart's desire. When you "deliver them" for someone else to use (in any way) you now have a product and you're left 336 in your shadows.

The "loophole" is if you're up flying recreationally and you later have something that someone wants to purchase you can sell it to them because "at the time of the flight" you had no intention/desire to sell the images. You shouldn't have a problem doing this once in a while but if you do it repeatedly, and IF the FAA comes looking (I stress IF) and they can demonstrate a pattern then you "might" have an issue. Keep in mind that any infractions with the FAA can have an ill effect on getting your license etc later down the road. Think long-term not just about today.

Earlier someone commented about photos becoming "retroactively commercial" if you choose to sell them later. So, what you're saying is, as long as it's a recreational flight and you don't have intention of selling anything, you can change your mind later to sell the photos and still be legal?

I'm not saying I doubt you. It just seems like such a strange rule. Anyone could pretty much film anywhere, say it was just for fun, then sell the photos later. I guess maybe a good way to look at it would be, using your drone as a service for someone is always commercial, but the content from the flight can go either way?

 

[lmmavrick]

once the FAA starts enforcing 107 previsions then it would be risky , but as it stands now so many are selling with out 107 that it's a joke . may as well do it and get started while you get your 107 . since all involved have given approval you really have nothing to lose . i just would not advertise it on an open forum like this and no one would be the wiser

 

[FL_Mike]

once the FAA starts enforcing 107 previsions then it would be risky , but as it stands now so many are selling with out 107 that it's a joke . may as well do it and get started while you get your 107 . since all involved have given approval you really have nothing to lose . i just would not advertise it on an open forum like this and no one would be the wiser

Yeah, I get it. I would simply prefer to stay on the right side of the law. These flights are honestly only about developing my skills. I spent a LOT of time on this course and know every square inch of the property. Hell, I even know where all the irrigation lines are under the turf.

 

[BigAl07]

Earlier someone commented about photos becoming "retroactively commercial" if you choose to sell them later. So, what you're saying is, as long as it's a recreational flight and you don't have intention of selling anything, you can change your mind later to sell the photos and still be legal?

Let's say you take this really cool picture of your town right at sunset. You think nothing about it other than "I took a really cool picture". You post it on your FB page and someone from your town sees it... they contact you and offer your $1,000,000,000 for it to use in their marketing campaign. You're GOLDEN because you took it entirely for YOUR recreation/enjoyment.

Let's say the town manager is your Brother-In-Law and he says, "Hey Wilbur, how about you take that fancy drone of yours and capture some sunset pictures of Wilburville at sunset? We would give you full credit and stuff but can't pay you for them... town budget is shot for this year." You're NOT golden because you can not DO SOMETHING for someone else and it still fall under "hobby/recreation". You can't RECREATE for someone else... if that makes sense.

It's just about the "Intent" at the time of the flight. If you happen to capture something that has value (or newsworthy) you can do something with it. If it's a onesy or twosey situation you would be fine but if a pattern forms AND if the FAA were to check into it, you might have a problem. Also remember someone in your area (or looking to do aerial data collection in your area) who happens to see it on the company website (like the golf course in this thread) can always make the phone call or submit a complaint (anonymous if they wish) online. I know FIRST HAND because I got that phone call.

Anyone could pretty much film anywhere, say it was just for fun, then sell the photos later.

That exact scenario is being played out from Sea to Shining Sea each and every day. People are constantly "stating" they are flying as hobbyist while capturing aerial data to use for NON-HOBBY purposes. Just because they are doing this does not make it any less "illegal".

Also I know for a fact there are several Part 107 operators who are "Claiming" to be flying in "Controlled Airspace" as a hobbyist (in order to not need an Airspace Authorization/Waiver) and just "conveniently be capturing NON-HOBBY data.

 

[BigAl07]

once the FAA starts enforcing 107 previsions then it would be risky , but as it stands now so many are selling with out 107 that it's a joke . may as well do it and get started while you get your 107 . since all involved have given approval you really have nothing to lose . i just would not advertise it on an open forum like this and no one would be the wiser

^^^^^ Posts like this one get under my feathers deeply (and I know it shouldn't). Unless you're willing to put your money where your mouth is and offer financial support IF someone is crazy enough to take your post as good advice you shouldn't be stating this nonsense. I know (as many of us do) you shouldn't take legal advice from an Internet Forum but some people are eager enough to read this type of flutter and think "I read everyone is doing it like this so I'll just join the masses". Yes it's their fault for following bad advice but at the same time giving bad advice should have a penalty as well.

 

[lmmavrick]

^^^^^ Posts like this one get under my feathers deeply (and I know it shouldn't). Unless you're willing to put your money where your mouth is and offer financial support IF someone is crazy enough to take your post as good advice you shouldn't be stating this nonsense. I know (as many of us do) you shouldn't take legal advice from an Internet Forum but some people are eager enough to read this type of flutter and think "I read everyone is doing it like this so I'll just join the masses". Yes it's their fault for following bad advice but at the same time giving bad advice should have a penalty as well.

I went and got my 107 i'm good to go . But don't get you feathers ruffled over the truth . i went through the process paid the fees to take the test . now all i see the people without their 107 selling photos and videos and the FAA doing nothing ! now i'm not giving legal advice . i'm am stating facts . i wish the FAA would put a stop to the illegal sale of drone footage but that does not seem to be happening ! i did my part now it's time for them to do theirs .. If they set up rules and then don't enforce them what good are they ! same with immigration we have the laws but still have millions streaming over the boarder .

 

[N017RW]

Can you cite some illegal photos and pics?

I mean some real-world examples that you know, as stated you see, are ‘illegal’?

 

[lmmavrick]

Can you cite some illegal photos and pics?

I mean some real-world examples that you know, as stated you see, are ‘illegal’?

i know of personally a few real estate agents that do it on a regular basis . it's just the tip of the iceberg