Did some flying, dodged a couple of low fliers

[xspwhite]

Kinda reminds me of when we were kids - and sent up our 6-foot bat kites with 5-rolls of 250' kite string.

 

[flockshot]

If people need an app to avoid colliding with manned aircraft, they should not be allowed to fly. This is aviation, not video games, and there are people in those aircraft.

 

[Sagebrush]

I always run an app like FlightRadar24 on my phone to keep tabs on local air traffic in my area of operation? And did I mention that neither the fixed wing Pipeline Inspection plane nor the powerline helo ever showed up on the App like all of the other jets zipping around the sky today?

I had a fixed-wing taildragger for years and finally sold it. It didn't have the avionics that would enabled it to be ID'd by radar. I didn't fly in any controlled airspace (or file IFR) that would have mandated it. Transponders aren't cheap.

Lots of aircraft don't have them and in a lot of situations, the pilot doesn't need to turn them on.

SB

 

[BigAl07]

I had a fixed-wing taildragger for years and finally sold it. It didn't have the avionics that would enabled it to be ID'd by radar. I didn't fly in any controlled airspace (or file IFR) that would have mandated it. Transponders aren't cheap.

Lots of aircraft don't have them and in a lot of situations, the pilot doesn't need to turn them on.

SB

^^^^^ Well said sir.

We don't have to have ours turned on until we are 10miles out from KAVL so basically after we take off we are "off the radar" until we are almost back to the airport.

 

[Timinator]

If people need an app to avoid colliding with manned aircraft, they should not be allowed to fly. This is aviation, not video games, and there are people in those aircraft.

It's about perspective. Judging relative altitude while on the ground is difficult due to the parallax effect. Telemetry tells me my altitude but if I had something that told me the altitude of the other aircraft, I would know right away if I needed to ascend, descend, or slide out of the way.

 

[flockshot]

Come on guys (and or gals), there are no apps for aircraft under 400 feet. If I am wrong, help me out.

 

[BigAl07]

Kinda reminds me of when we were kids - and sent up our 6-foot bat kites with 5-rolls of 250' kite string.

It sounds like you might have grown up in my neighborhood LOL! We LOVED our 6' BAT kites!!!

We had Kite Stations which tethered the kites to a large base (It had a chair and a hand crank for the line) and we used HUGE spools of Deep Sea fishing line. Some of these spools had literally 100's of thousands of yards of line on them. Once we got the kites up they were high enough to be in winds that never subsided and the kites could fly for days on end.

We lost a few here and there but for the most part we had a pretty solid success rate. We always put our name and phone # on each kite just in case. I lost one as I was reeling it back in and it was located and returned to me from 4 miles away. Best part is the person who returned it walked (as in on foot) to my house and returned the kite. We gave him a reward, a good home cooked meal and my parents took him home across town. It was about getting the "history" of the kite more than saving the $$ of the kite. Those 6' BAT kites were a blast LOL.

 

[Wilbur]

@Cellblock776 you need to understand where FlightRadar24 gets it's information and there is a HUGE gap in it. HUGE!!!

FlightRadar24 ONLY shows you aircraft that are being actively tracked by ATC. If you're not in an area fairly close to ATC there very well might (probably are) aircraft flying freely and not under ATC Flight Following. Read the information below and pay attention to the items in red (my formatting) as this could make a HUGE difference:

Flightradar24 aggregates data from three sources:[3]

1. Automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast (ADS-B). The principal source is a large number of ground based ADS-B receivers, which collect data from any aircraft in their local area that are equipped with an ADS-B transponder and feed this data to the internet in real time. The aircraft-based transponders use the GPS and other flight data input to transmit signals containing aircraft registration, position, altitude, velocity and other flight data. Currently, about 65% of aircraft in Europe are equipped with ADS-B but only 35% in the US. For example: all Airbus aircraft are ADS-B equipped but Boeing 707, 717, 727, 737-200, 747-100, 747-200, 747SP do not come equipped and are not generally visible unless retrofitted by their operators. Typical ADS-B receivers include Kinetic Avonics′s SBS-1 and AirNav-systems's AirNav and these receivers are run by volunteers, mostly aviation enthusiasts. ADS-B signals can also be received and uploaded by a low-cost Software-defined radio, such as those based on the $15 R820T tuner.[4]
2. Multilateration (MLAT). The second major source is multilateration using Flightradar24 (FR24) receivers. All aircraft types will be visible in areas covered by MLAT, even without ADS-B, but while 99% of Europe is covered, only parts of the US are. At least four receivers are needed to calculate the position of an aircraft.[3]
3. Federal Aviation Administration. The shortfall in the US is mostly made up from 5 minute delayed data from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) but this may not include aircraft registration and other information.

So keep the above information in mind if you're using this (or any flight following Ap) because you're only seeing a slice of the pie not the whole thing. I'm a manned aviation pilot and fly a LOT of the time W/O flight following and well below RADAR levels in my area of the country.

Do you think any other apps are better at it, or are they all pretty much on the same level? I haven't really looked into a flight radar app, but even if it only shows 30% of the aircraft in the sky, that's still better than not knowing anything.

 

[BigAl07]

Do you think any other apps are better at it, or are they all pretty much on the same level?

They are ALL pulling the same information from the same place right now. In a few years this may be a whole different ballgame but right now WE are ahead of the system in terms of "Flight Following" and Aps!

I haven't really looked into a flight radar app, but even if it only shows 30% of the aircraft in the sky, that's still better than not knowing anything.

Unless people are relying on it (and they SO are). It's like driving down the road at highway speeds and only being able to see 30% of the traffic around you and assuming that's accurate. Could you drive to work and back safely if 70% of the traffic around your car was invisible?

 

[THA]

I doubt seriously if an manned aircraft could see a drone from even up close. A pilots eyes are not focused on smaller objects and really should be looking out a mile or so away and to at least a 120 degree arc in front of aircraft. Would most likely never focus on a Phantom size object.
Also, in video helicopter appeared well beyond the building across road. Compare its relative size to the vehicles and other objects in parking lot. Helicopter is much larger. First pass may have been closer but he would not have reason to be nearer than roadway. I used to fly pipelines in college days and have a feel for close and low flying. Remember, any manned aircraft has right of way no matter what altitude and for many reasons, can legally be below what many think is a "rule". If flying pipeline, mostly I flew at 75 to 150 feet for about 200 miles weekly. No UAVs then but many birds and very difficult to spot.

 

[Cellblock776]

I was out flying from my yard again today. I was actually speaking with a neighbor when the pipeline plane flew right over us. She commented how low it was, probably right at 175 or so, and I told her of my previous encounter. Luckily this time I had just landed and was taking a short break after swapping out batteries.
For BigAl, I was aware of the short comings of Apps like the Flight Radar24 and regularly run a SDR receiver and a real time app so I don't get the delays you mentioned. This is what my screen looked like while I was flying today.

And a bit further out,

Additionally I always file my flight plan on AirMap and leave that running on my phone or a separate tablet and it does sometimes give me alerts. Frankly I don't care about a Jet Blue flight up at 10,000feet headed for Dallas but those little single engine guys, the ones buzzing around at anything under 1000 feet, I look out for.
This is one alert I got from AirMap as I was flying today,

So I keep my eyes and ears open, watch for the low flying aircraft and all of the birds who are flying around today including a hawk that was showing wwaaaaayyyyy to much interest in my Phantom.
As one reply noted, Every bad report to the FAA is another nail in the coffin of the hobby. I agree and I tend to conduct my flights as if I was operating from my own little ground control station. Hopefully I can avoid any negative occurrences.

73 everybody and keep flying safe.

 

[Nightwolf]

Could you drive to work and back safely if 70% of the traffic around your car was invisible?

I ride my bike to work every day and 70% of everyone else thinks I'm invisible! Does that count?

 

[randyvanscoy]

med choppers can fly at any level where ever they need to be. they do not have to let anyone know their location except their dispatch. they try to stay at least 500 foot level until they reach their landing area, where they usually take a couple of low (70-100 foot) circles looking for ground issues before they land. most of them u can not hear tell it is too late. kinda scary but i have seen this many times due to i use to work on one in kansas city area. most pilots are x- military and very good at low flying and landing in places you would not think was possible. just my 2 cents worth....

 

[Cellblock776]

med choppers can fly at any level where ever they need to be. they do not have to let anyone know their location except their dispatch. they try to stay at least 500 foot level until they reach their landing area, where they usually take a couple of low (70-100 foot) circles looking for ground issues before they land. most of them u can not hear tell it is too late. kinda scary but i have seen this many times due to i use to work on one in kansas city area. most pilots are x- military and very good at low flying and landing in places you would not think was possible. just my 2 cents worth....

I am aware of this too since I used to work for the local city fire department as a FF/EMT and being a semi-rural and industrial area we make use of Acadian Ambulance Airmed regularly. We had to take training and be certified to set up day and night landing zones and worked closely with these helos. Today I work for a hospital system (as you can probably tell by the logo I have here under my name) and fly a Phantom 4 Pro + around the hospital property. I not only have to worry about our helo pad but the one at Our Lady Of The Lake hospital a little over a mile away. We are the regional burn center and have a busy ER so we get our share of AirMed flights but OLOL is the area trauma center and they get quite a bit more Airmed traffic, much of which flies right through my flight area. So I have to stay on the ball with constantly scanning for these low flying aircraft.

 

[BarryWilson]

It's a nice day although we have a line of thundershowers to the west about to roll in this afternoon. So I figured on spending a bit of my morning off work doing a bit of UAV flying over my neighborhood. Just playing around doing some lazy, relaxing flying with my Phantom 3 Standard. Not far out, just keeping it in VLOS and about 200' AGL. I got through one battery, about 15 minutes, landed and swapped out to a 2nd battery and went back up to about 250'AGL and was over a vacant lot across the street when I heard an airplane engine. I dropped immediately as I saw a single engine fixed wing with PIPELINE INSPECTION printed under the wings heading right at my sUAS. I decided that I wasn't loosing altitude quickly enough and pitched left to get close to a pecan tree that I was near. I have pine trees that are about 120' near me and I know the pecan tree is ~80' tall. As I jinxed right the plane went to my right and flew over at me at approx 200AGL. Way too close for comfort. I was experiencing a pucker factor of 7.
I hovered about 75' AGL for a minute and as I was about to head back up, I heard rotor blades of a helo. I couldn't see it until the chopper, a 4 door Bell type, passed between a couple of trees and buildings less than 100 yards away. This aircraft appeared to be flying along some powerlines next to some railroad tracks which pass near my house. He was well under 300'AGL as he flew past me. I stayed down below the treetops, about 70 feet, until he was gone and I no longer heard him.
So it was time to get back up to altitude and shortly after going back up to about 300'AGL I heard the sound of rotors again. The helo was coming back. I dropped back down to below 100' and got near my friendly trees which I figure the manned aircraft will try to stay away from. I watched as the helo passed a little further away this time, going back the way he had come from a couple of minutes before.
Did I mention that, in addition to staying within VLOS and staying under 400' I always run an app like FlightRadar24 on my phone to keep tabs on local air traffic in my area of operation? And did I mention that neither the fixed wing Pipeline Inspection plane nor the powerline helo ever showed up on the App like all of the other jets zipping around the sky today? I never had any warning that they were heading toward me until they were both within a mile of my Phantom.
I didn't get the close encounter with the Pipeline inspection plane on video because I wasn't planning on doing any filming, especially of an oncoming aircraft. I REALLY Wish I had that to show how low he was and how close he got at I dropped and turned away from him.
When the helicopter returned I was videoing and have it recorded and made a short video to share with others. I dropped below the trees as he passed me this second time and this perspective shows how important it is to always keep your UAV in sight and to keep scanning the sky for other aircraft.

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That said, until we have some sort of universal transponder system in place and EVERYBODY is using it, I don't see how we can have things like autonomous package deliveries or inspection flights sharing the same airspace as these low flying manned aircraft.

There are lots of things in play now and in the near future which will help with situational awareness. By January 1st, 2020 all manned aircraft currently required to have a transponder must also have ADS-B. So even if you're just up for a 15 minute flight filing a flight plan like on AirMap will give you Situational Awareness within their app and Announce approaching aircraft, type, altitude and call sign. Also the flight planner may have given you a heads up NOTAM of their current operations. FAA B4UFly and Sky Vector also gives some Situational Awareness. I have an aeronautical VHF radio I always listen on when I fly. I'm on the edge of both Class B and Class D Airspace so I hear aircraft calling the tower when they are about to enter the pattern. The two way Vhf AM radio was about the same price as a hand held scanner and both would work for Situational Awareness.

 

[BarryWilson]

I am aware of this too since I used to work for the local city fire department as a FF/EMT and being a semi-rural and industrial area we make use of Acadian Ambulance Airmed regularly. We had to take training and be certified to set up day and night landing zones and worked closely with these helos. Today I work for a hospital system (as you can probably tell by the logo I have here under my name) and fly a Phantom 4 Pro + around the hospital property. I not only have to worry about our helo pad but the one at Our Lady Of The Lake hospital a little over a mile away. We are the regional burn center and have a busy ER so we get our share of AirMed flights but OLOL is the area trauma center and they get quite a bit more Airmed traffic, much of which flies right through my flight area. So I have to stay on the ball with constantly scanning for these low flying aircraft.

Cellblock776, just curious if you notify both hospitals before you fly? I work on the Denver Federal Center and sit just NE of St. Anthony's Hospital by 300 yards ,which was the first civilian "Flight for Life" helicopter service (their d location). They have 3 helo pads I can see from my office. I have spoke to them and they request notification and a callback number anytime we would want to fly. AirMap gives several other heliports within 5 miles that should be notified. Living rural must be nice. We have a Medical ER on about every mile intersection with helipads. Thankfully not all of them are FAA Registered Airports but still a nightmare for recreational pilots.

 

[Cellblock776]

I am the one who gets notifications at my hospital. I used to call OLOL but their dispatcher really had the same problem I had, we get a call from a department, such as the Emergency Department, letting us know that they are expecting a Airmed to arrive in "X" number of minutes but we find that those times are highly inaccurate and sometimes the aircraft is cancelled or diverted and we are never notified. Sometimes an aircraft will land with little or no warning. We don't have any radio or even phone communications with the helos. It's not like we have air band radios in our dispatch center or any way to warn approaching aircraft that we are operating a UAV on our property. We are not in contact with any of the air crews. So calling the neighboring hospital really serves no purpose and while it is a requirement per FAA rules, is simply not productive. The best I can do is to stay low, stay VLOS and watch for incoming aircraft.

 

[Journey]

Your ears are the best collision avoidance system. NEVER listen to music with headsets and if possible, don’t stand next to anything noisy while flying.

 

[BarryWilson]

If people need an app to avoid colliding with manned aircraft, they should not be allowed to fly. This is aviation, not video games, and there are people in those aircraft.

I disagree. Any technology that helps situational awareness and helps prevent collisions whether in a manned aircraft or a remote pilot operating VLOS increases NAS Safety. I file flight plans every time I fly but that certainly doesn't stop manned aircraft pilots in my area flying within the airspace below 400' when 5 miles out from our Class D Airport. I think the FAA should mandate ADS-B for all aircraft, not just current aircraft required to carry transponders, and require them to be on when the aircraft is in motion. I think there are a lot of pilots which feel the airspace should only be for manned flight. I however feel they need to change their mindset and learn to share. We will soon be doing if not already in test markets the same with self navigating/driving vehicles on our roads. We don't individually own our space on the roadway any more than a pilot owns airspace we fly in. Future technology and awareness will make transportation safer.

 

[N017RW]

Lookout for who’s responsible when an automated device takes a life. The manufacturer, the programmer, the owner, the customer???
We’re on the cusp now.
It’s not clear yet where culpability lies. It is being tested in a way with Tesla now and soon precedent established.