The VALUE of photography... please learn about it before you make a mistake

The most thought-provoking thread I've read on this forum (and not a single grammatical or spelling error in it so far!!). Thanks Jim Roof for getting it started and thanks to the rest of you for chiming in.
 
The most thought-provoking thread I've read on this forum (and not a single grammatical or spelling error in it so far!!). Thanks Jim Roof for getting it started and thanks to the rest of you for chiming in.

From post #16 above:
"... Imagine that, the MOST POLULAR photo website in the world blocks photos from cameras."

At least one spelling error (POPULAR, not POLULAR).

Just kidding around... You're right, it's a great thread.
 
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From post #16 above:
"... Imagine that, the MOST POLULAR photo website in the world blocks photos from cameras."

At least one spelling error (POPULAR, not POLULAR).

Just kidding around... You're right, it's a great thread.
That's a typo, not a spelling error. Look how close P and L are to each other on the keyboard (LOL).
 
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I am not a professional photographer, but a 45 year, experienced and motivated and quite educated semi-pro. I get really frustrated with the "I'm a professional". Please don't tell me that "I am a "Don't Even Fool With" photographer!
You "Pros" are the only "Good Professional Photographers", is a joke! While I do indeed appreciate and highly respect your work, I feel quite a waist, but will still dedicate myself to "Good Photography". Please don't say "He's not to be Bothered "!!!
 
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Jim, I really appreciate your addressing the issue. But we should give these new shooters some suggestions about where to get some pricing guidelines. ASMP has a good white paper on determining the value of photography. There must be other resources. For commercial real estate developers, I charge $1200 a day + expenses. Drone photos are an additional $100 ea. But ultimately it depends on the usage rights licensed by the client.
Get worried, the big arch firms are all requiring photographers to sign contracts that are buyouts. I recently had to tell one of the world's largest to take a hike.
Paul Dingman
Www.dingmanphoto.com
 
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Yes lots of folks can take a good photo. Getting high fees as a commercial photographer is about consistency and reliability. If you provide both over time you get a reputation and business. A drone is just another tool for a professional photographer.
 
Jim, I really appreciate your addressing the issue. But we should give these new shooters some suggestions about where to get some pricing guidelines. ASMP has a good white paper on determining the value of photography. There must be other resources. For commercial real estate developers, I charge $1200 a day + expenses. Drone photos are an additional $100 ea. But ultimately it depends on the usage rights licensed by the client.
Get worried, the big arch firms are all requiring photographers to sign contracts that are buyouts. I recently had to tell one of the world's largest to take a hike.
Paul Dingman
Www.dingmanphoto.com


Out of curiosity, how are you enforcing agreed to usage rights? Do you provide only watermarked photos? Do you embed copyright info in metadata? Do you tell the client up front "for $××× this can only be used in that one ad we discussed"?

This is a side of the business I think most of us newer people are not sufficiently knowledgable about, so it'd be helpful if you could share.
 
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D
Jim - with all due respect, I dont want to. I want to be a better photographer and videographer but I have zero interest in becoming a professinoal.

Wedding photographers? OMG, WEDDING Photographers? After television evangelists, insurance annuity sales people, and carnies, they are the worst people on the planet. They play off of a naïve young couples inexperienc and emotions, filling them with nonsince like this, "Six months after the wedding the photos will be the only thing you will have to remember your special day." OMG - I'll punch a photographer square in the nose if they tell one of my kids that in front of me. Reality is six months after the wedding the couple will be in couples therapy discussing how they are arguing because of how deep in debt they are due to how much they spent on their wedding.

Here is what they really need...one great photo of just the two of them right after the wedding. Thats it. All the bologna of wheeling over grandma so we have "proof" she had not kicked the bucket yet, or pulling uncle Jim with his clip-on tie into a church photo before he gets to the reception hall and passes out from taking advantage of drinking too much free beer, all those photos will be looked at once when the couple gets them back from the photographer then never again.

My suggestion is if you enjoy photography and videography then make it a hobby. If you want to make money, find something else that gives you the chance to succeed.


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Doug -

Have to say that you are spot on 100% on this one and as I was reading through this thread wavering between thinking about the "pros" looking down their noses to lecture us and the nostalgic whining of days gone by of Ansel Adams I happened across your post! I could not - and therefore won't - have said it better.

I think if we are lucky to live long enough (>60 here) we see have seen this in many forms or technology and it is an oft repeated pattern. Digital photography and drones of the P4 and P4P variety create a crosspoint that affects a number of industries and is new enough that threads like this hope to teach us what "art" and "craft" and "experience" are and what they are worth. My honest opinion is that the vast majority of editors, publishers and TV executives could not give one single solitary **** about any of that and will be happy to post on Twitter, "Send us your pics from X event and we will put them on TV, newspaper, whatever....for a byline." The pictures they get are just fine and that's just what they want -- "just fine."

So - I am going to commit this line to memory, "My suggestion is if you enjoy photography and videography then make it a hobby. If you want to make money, find something else that gives you the chance to succeed." Then, I am going to grab my P4, Canon 7D MkII and my iPhone and head out for an afternoon of FUN. See you out there - fly safe and have fun!!!
 
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Out of curiosity, how are you enforcing agreed to usage rights? Do you provide only watermarked photos? Do you embed copyright info in metadata? Do you tell the client up front "for $××× this can only be used in that one ad we discussed"?

This is a side of the business I think most of us newer people are not sufficiently knowledgable about, so it'd be helpful if you could share.
 
A couple clarifications requested!!:

> in addition to the owner of the facility that contracted me, had a solid half dozen other firms that were interested in LICENSING the images from me.
Were those competing firms wanting commercial license??? Photographed firm willing to sign release to let competing firms use images of itself?!

> I just took my P4 Pro up...given enough light and shooting around f/7
:eek::eek::eek: f/7 on a 1" sensor??? Doesn't diffraction start kicking above f/4?!!!
(f/7 = what full frame -- about f/20? f/4 = closer to f/8 full frame?)

Thanks in advance.
 
I use a contract that details usage rights as well as all aspects of the shoot. The client knows exactly what the are buying before we shoot.
Yes copyright n license for use is imbeded in metadata.
I only submit low rez proofs. I usually do not watermark if they have signed the contract. You can do a search for contracts for photographers and get an idea of what to include.
I will send u mine in a private conversation. I am also an architectural photographer.
 
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Out of curiosity, how are you enforcing agreed to usage rights? Do you provide only watermarked photos? Do you embed copyright info in metadata? Do you tell the client up front "for $××× this can only be used in that one ad we discussed"?

This is a side of the business I think most of us newer people are not sufficiently knowledgable about, so it'd be helpful if you could share.

For what most of what Paul and I shoot, there is a trust relationship with the client. 90% of my billing is repeat clientele. We discuss the rights of use and copyright ownership and in 35 years I have only agreed to give up copyright twice, based upon trade secrets and non-disclosure concerns. Funny thing is, in both of these cases the client (who legally owned the images lock, stock and barrel) agreed that I would be able to collect money and distribute the images to third parties. Ie., they owned them legally, but I was treated as if I owned them, financially.

I have one image that has been misused hundreds of times by hundreds of parties. That cat just exploded out of the bag so fast that I could not even think of keeping up with it. I just decided to let it go since all of the violators were bloggers and small travel agencies.

So, the answer is 'yes', I tell my clients what rights they have and they are fine with that 90% of the time. I have fairly liberal terms of licensing so that might account for that high rate of acceptance.
 
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A couple clarifications requested!!:

> in addition to the owner of the facility that contracted me, had a solid half dozen other firms that were interested in LICENSING the images from me.
Were those competing firms wanting commercial license??? Photographed firm willing to sign release to let competing firms use images of itself?!

> I just took my P4 Pro up...given enough light and shooting around f/7
:eek::eek::eek: f/7 on a 1" sensor??? Doesn't diffraction start kicking above f/4?!!!
(f/7 = what full frame -- about f/20? f/4 = closer to f/8 full frame?)

Thanks in advance.

About the licensing. Yes. Many were in fact competing firms. Both of the GC's compete and I am sure that the two engineering firms do as well. And, none of them were in a position to tell the others that they could not license from me because MY client was the owner. Truth be known, this project MIGHT be the largest single pharmaceutical project in the history of the U.S. It was a 1.2 billion dollar facility. EVERYONE involved wanted photos to market their involvement. Prestige drives a lot of my third party sales.

As for the f/7. Perhaps I am a creature of habit. I have not done the math for this focal length and sensor size. And maybe diffraction does start up where you say. I just know that I almost always shoot at f/8 to f/11 on my 5Ds bodies. I will do some tests today. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I have owned my P4 Pro for just 2 weeks so I am really just now getting my feet wet.
 
For what most of what Paul and I shoot, there is a trust relationship with the client. 90% of my billing is repeat clientele. We discuss the rights of use and copyright ownership and in 35 years I have only agreed to give up copyright twice, based upon trade secrets and non-disclosure concerns. Funny thing is, in both of these cases the client (who legally owned the images lock, stock and barrel) agreed that I would be able to collect money and distribute the images to third parties. Ie., they owned them legally, but I was treated as if I owned them, financially.

I have one image that has been misused hundreds of times by hundreds of parties. That cat just exploded out of the bag so fast that I could not even think of keeping up with it. I just decided to let it go since all of the violators were bloggers and small travel agencies.

So, the answer is 'yes', I tell my clients what rights they have and they are fine with that 90% of the time. I have fairly liberal terms of licensing so that might account for that high rate of acceptance.
 
About the licensing. Yes. Many were in fact competing firms. Both of the GC's compete and I am sure that the two engineering firms do as well. And, none of them were in a position to tell the others that they could not license from me because MY client was the owner. Truth be known, this project MIGHT be the largest single pharmaceutical project in the history of the U.S. It was a 1.2 billion dollar facility. EVERYONE involved wanted photos to market their involvement. Prestige drives a lot of my third party sales.

As for the f/7. Perhaps I am a creature of habit. I have not done the math for this focal length and sensor size. And maybe diffraction does start up where you say. I just know that I almost always shoot at f/8 to f/11 on my 5Ds bodies. I will do some tests today. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I have owned my P4 Pro for just 2 weeks so I am really just now getting my feet wet.
 
This discussion has gone on for a long time. Is it the camera or the photographer who creates the high value associated with an image? Who is the buyer and can he/she differentiate between a snap shot and a piece of art that was captured and post processed professionally. For sure, the lowered cost of capture from a drone vs. a helicopter will reduce the cost to capture, but the buyer is paying for the result not the process.

Pricing is also a direct function of the market you submit your work to. The image below would warrant a very high price if it were a custom shot for someone living in a large home in the local geography. It would earn much less, but with many more sales, if it were to become a puzzle or post card. In either of these cases, the camera or the camera platform (plane, helicopter, or drone) will not even be a consideration in the market price.

Drone Photo.jpg
 
Very good thread! I'm studying for my Part 107 test so I can do some side work. I consider my time and ability to be valuable so I don't want to give away my service (well, maybe for close friends :) ). I've been doing research to see what others are changing so I can get a a good idea where to set my prices.

Question about who owns the photos. A friend wants me to take pictures of his lighthouse. It's something that everyone takes pictures of but most can't get as close as I can (it's out in the water). I do the job for him for a set price. Can I sell the photos to others later? I don't think it would be any different than taking photos of it on my own and selling large prints to others that want them. Don't know how all that works.
 
I am not a professional photographer, but a 45 year, experienced and motivated and quite educated semi-pro. I get really frustrated with the "I'm a professional". Please don't tell me that "I am a "Don't Even Fool With" photographer!
You "Pros" are the only "Good Professional Photographers", is a joke! While I do indeed appreciate and highly respect your work, I feel quite a waist, but will still dedicate myself to "Good Photography". Please don't say "He's not to be Bothered "!!!

Can we agree there are photographers and there are picture takers? I am a picture taker - a hobbyist - for more than three score years. I respect the photographers, admire their work, and do not begrudge how and how much they are compensated for their work. I get my money's worth from my hobby by sharing my pictures with family and friends for their enjoyment and amusement. I think there are many others like me. Am I right?
 
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Can we agree there are photographers and there are picture takers? I am a picture taker - a hobbyist - for more than three score years. I respect the photographers, admire their work, and do not begrudge how and how much they are compensated for their work. I get my money's worth from my hobby by sharing my pictures with family and friends for their enjoyment and amusement. I think there are many others like me. Am I right?
I definitely agree. As an amateur, I do the same. When I do sell my work, e.g. in art shops, or when taking images for real estate firms, I do charge a fair market price so that I am not undercutting my friends who do depend on photography sales to make a living.
 
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