Lost control while hovering, crashed and broke gimbal

PhilAnderson said:
skyhighdiver said:
Having traded in my vision for a vision plus (and now my second +)
I have to say THIS IS NOT A TRAINER
Not because it is hard to fly but because it is not forgiving of any crash!
If you crash 99% you will lose your camera and gimbal that is a fact!
<snip>

While I understand what you are saying, I'm going to disagree. I think the Vision + is excellent for a first time pilot. There is enough information available before making the purchase that anyone can learn to fly it before they actually lay down their hard-earned dollars. It's really a matter of what they do with the information (videos, manuals, forums, etc.) obtained.

I researched plenty before I purchased. I watched a ton of videos, read over the manuals and read this forum. Finally confident that even I, a first time pilot, could expect success, I placed my order. First flight lasted exactly 30 seconds. Landed in a tree about 30 feet up. A kindly passing gentleman went home, got his ladder and handed over my craft. It sat up in that tree for a good five minutes, rotors spinning, before I could figure out how to make it stop. Net result, one broken blade. I've since flown it about 35-40 flights, taken some great photos and videos. Not a scratch on it. I actually think landing in that tree was a good thing. Now I'm far more careful and have actually taken the time to learn to fly it properly.

Yeah, I'm sure I was probably lucky, but I really think the information is available if one wants to take advantage of it. I didn't and paid the price of a propeller. Now I'm careful and enjoying flying my Phantom more that I ever hoped for. DJI has made a copter that is almost foolproof as long as you're not a fool.

PhilAnderson said:
skyhighdiver said:
Having traded in my vision for a vision plus (and now my second +)
I have to say THIS IS NOT A TRAINER
Not because it is hard to fly but because it is not forgiving of any crash!
If you crash 99% you will lose your camera and gimbal that is a fact!
<snip>

While I understand what you are saying, I'm going to disagree. I think the Vision + is excellent for a first time pilot. There is enough information available before making the purchase that anyone can learn to fly it before they actually lay down their hard-earned dollars. It's really a matter of what they do with the information (videos, manuals, forums, etc.) obtained.

I researched plenty before I purchased. I watched a ton of videos, read over the manuals and read this forum. Finally confident that even I, a first time pilot, could expect success, I placed my order. First flight lasted exactly 30 seconds. Landed in a tree about 30 feet up. A kindly passing gentleman went home, got his ladder and handed over my craft. It sat up in that tree for a good five minutes, rotors spinning, before I could figure out how to make it stop. Net result, one broken blade. I've since flown it about 35-40 flights, taken some great photos and videos. Not a scratch on it. I actually think landing in that tree was a good thing. Now I'm far more careful and have actually taken the time to learn to fly it properly.

Yeah, I'm sure I was probably lucky, but I really think the information is available if one wants to take advantage of it. I didn't and paid the price of a propeller. Now I'm careful and enjoying flying my Phantom more that I ever hoped for. DJI has made a copter that is almost foolproof as long as you're not a fool.
I tend to agree that learning to fly is not about the cost of the unit, The more expensive it is the more cautious while learning. I experienced erratic behavior with mine taking off and letting it stabilize/hover a few feet off the ground, not sure what caused it but I noticed the S! switch not in top position, I pushed it up and by that time fearing it would run into obstacles on either side I too k it up to 40- 50 feet to be above obstacles but it took off out of sight and when I found it, per FPV it was 74 feet up and 145 feet from home. I have prop guards, have had it up to 700 feet, dropped straight down some 300 feet, hovered a while then straight down to land it. I always take it straight down and have good landings.Now, had I not had prop guards it would have fallen 74 feet from where it hit the tree, the guards are what held it from falling. Needless to say, I haven't flown it since because I don't know what caused it to take off, it wasn't vortex, it went up not down.I wonder how many use guards vs no Guards?
 
I actually had this happen to me with my first Vision+. Flew fine the first 5 flights and then on a clear day flying and hovering perfectly maybe 30' high it started oscillating violently. As once described by someone else, it was like cat paws were smacking it back and forth. What I saw was way too violent and forceful to be convinced this was a VRS. I truly believe this is a malfunction of the phantom. I returned it and have had about 25 flights on my new one with no problems.
 
My P2V+ Crashed on second flight!

Weather was good, little wind if any, sunny day. Perfect for flight, but something went wrong while in flight.

I was up around 800 feet to take aerial shots looking straight down at the field and buildings. I started slowly to descend and as I was watching the video, was going all over the place. The UAV was coming down too fast and was rocking from side to side. Tried to pull up, but no change, still coming down. You could hear the motors ramping up and down until point of impact.

Landed in a muddy field, damaged the gimbal, broke both landing bars.

My first flight was great, but I noticed that it was come down a lot faster the my P2V, so I did not bring it down as fast, did not bring the lever all the way down.

This really sucks, I wish I was taking video at the time, but I was just taking stills shots. I had visions of the UAV being in many pieces, but it was all in tack, sitting sideways with blades in the mud and still on. UAV was still powered up, but motors off.

I am glad that it failed when it did since yesterday I was over some flooded areas ofter some storms we had a few days before. This first video for me was really great compared to my P2V and I was looking forward to taking more lower level videos, but that idea end quick.

http://youtu.be/wCh1oJRlHvs

I will see what Monday brings us. Calling DJI and B&H. It's not like this was my first flight or that I was just learning to fly. Had 6 mo flight time on my P2V.

Phantom 2 Vision Plus
Phantom 2 Vision
UAV Pilot 4 Fun - Allan
Cypress TX


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
My P2V+ Crashed on second flight!

Weather was good, little wind if any, sunny day. Perfect for flight, but something went wrong while in flight.

Do you fly with propeller guards attached?
 
I just got my P2V+ this past Thursday and have flown about 14 short flights in the past two days.

Reading these threads about VRS or "prop wash" and what not to do while flying have been helpful.

I try to avoid hovering in one spot and always descend while moving slowly in any direction.

I also decided to not install my prop guards after reading the various crash threads.

I feel bad for all those who have crashed their Phantoms. If it's any consolation at all, your experiences help others to learn.
 
I'm new to this forum - and first off - thanks to all the greatly informative posters and their collective wisdom. Your experiences are very helpful, though it would be nice to have you tell me what to look out for -before- it costs me new props, or whatever :cool:

In regards to the sudden descent while hovering - I'd like to provide my experiences to the mix. I've recently upgraded from my 1st quad (DJI P2V), to the P2V+. I never had a lick of problems with the P2V (other than lots of pilot error...errrrr... experience opportunities) with sudden loss of control and drop-like-a-rock descents. I just started flying the new P2V+ 4 days ago (vacation) in a wilderness setting - wide open rolling hills with no RF sources for interference etc.- with the intent to test the control and FPV range (BTW - both were great out to 2,400' +/-). Then, on the second flight, while about 125' elevation and 100' horizontal in a steady hover (sticks were at dead neutral while I was adjusting the camera angle) - it suddenly starting dropping as many others have described already. It never regained stability and crash-landed in 2-3' tall sage brush - which luckily cushioned the landing with no damage. I was perplexed about what had happened (captured on video recording as well). Flew the quad a couple more batteries-worth, low and over soft LZ - but couldn't replicate the problem.

Next day, went out again - this time it was about 550' altitude / 850' distance over a ravine (trying to capture wildlife) and in a steady hover (sticks at dead-neutral) while I adjusted the camera to straight down. I noticed on FPV it violently rocking / descending, looked up, and watched it dropping behind the hilltop. Crap - here we go again!!! I started hiking towards it when all of a sudden, FPV shows RTH...and low and behold - up it comes from behind the hilltop flying home - yahoo!! Reviewing the video that it recorded - which captured the entire 5-8 second violent descent - it did the same drastic rocking back and forth while falling like a rock...but suddenly stabilized at what I'm guessing was about 100-200' - determined it had lost signal over the hill - and initiated RTH.

I have prop guards on it - always have used them on both quads - and have saved many $$$ because of them. I'm a fan of prop guards until you really build your flight skills...which I'm still doing after countless hours. If there's something to run into...I seem to find it - I'm not good enough yet to overcome closure speed with fixed objects - too cocky with flying fast...even though it's incredibly fun with the snap-maneuvers possible with this quad). Back on topic - I'm not convinced prop guards have anything to do with this problem.

To B&H Photo's credit - they ARE going to cover it as 'defective' since it's inside their 30-day return policy. Very thankfully - this did not occur on my first flight the day of receipt when I was over water...or I'd have been toast on returning it.

Thanks again to those who have put such valuable insights on this forum. Happy flying.
(P.S. To the forum moderators - I don't now the limits on uploading video - but if 500mb video is acceptable - I'd be happy to upload the video of the first crash. The second one is larger.)
 
I promised an update and here it is.

I talked to DJI in May and they said they would have a shipment of parts the next Monday (don't recall which). I called maybe the Wednesday after that Monday for an RMA and it was hell getting through.

The call queue would say I'm number 7, then 6, then 5, then play a message saying they were receiving a high call volume. Then it would disconnect. This happened maybe five times. I then broke out my personal cell, my work cell, my work Cisco VPN phone, and my wife's work cell and called on ALL of them. I had to fight through the cycle a few times but I could tell that it was helping as each time I'd get closer to #1, and finally a rep answered.

He was really friendly and explained that they didn't end up receiving the parts. They got boxes of screws. We both laughed at the irony of being screwed by China.

Anyhow, he said they expected another shipment on the 15th of June and suggested I call on the 13th (today) just to check in.

So today I called and the phone situation was worse. They were just dropping calls like crazy. I did my phone assault again and got through like a charm. And to my surprise, the rep said they had parts and were issuing RMAs today! He emailed me a link to a survey on what happened. It's supposed to "help the techs", though I'm sure it's primarily to help determine warranty status.

He seemed like he was in a huge rush but was very definitely being as friendly and helpful as he could be. He was almost out of breath from talking fast but he answered every question I had and he put the phone down to go get answers from someone else twice.

Whatever the situation with DJI in China or with their crappy phone system at the US number, the guys in the Los Angeles office are clearly doing their best while being overwhelmed with support requests.

While I was on the line I heard someone else pick up on one of my other lines (the girl I first spoke to in May) so they do have more than one person staffing their support line.

They couldn't tell me what the actual cost of the camera/gimbal would be and I got the impression that the support rep isn't keen on the technical side, but he did say that there's no way it would be more than half the cost of the unit. And I think he meant that included labor. I'm hoping that's true.

As for the actual Phantom itself, it flies just fine with the broken camera. The iPhone app connects and displays accurate telemetry. The only thing that's missing is the video.
 
rrhansen said:
Next day, went out again - this time it was about 550' altitude / 850' distance over a ravine (trying to capture wildlife) and in a steady hover (sticks at dead-neutral) while I adjusted the camera to straight down. I noticed on FPV it violently rocking / descending, looked up, and watched it dropping behind the hilltop. Crap - here we go again!!! I started hiking towards it when all of a sudden, FPV shows RTH...and low and behold - up it comes from behind the hilltop flying home - yahoo!! Reviewing the video that it recorded - which captured the entire 5-8 second violent descent - it did the same drastic rocking back and forth while falling like a rock...but suddenly stabilized at what I'm guessing was about 100-200' - determined it had lost signal over the hill - and initiated RTH.

I found this excerpt very interesting... I had this problem with my first Vision+ (now flying my replacement with no problems). What I found interesting was that the violent wobble went away once it entered RTH mode.. at least that's what appears happened based on the description. If RTH mode did indeed stop the violent wobble, then that would indicate signal interference to the Tx control. RTH still needs GPS for RTH so it appears GPS was fine. I believe RTH also relies on the compass and acceleromter as well so I would assume those are good. RTH obviously does not rely on a signal from the Tx with the exception for initiation of RTH. I'm assuming at this point that while the Phantom was in a wobble, it had a connection with the Tx but also experienced a signal interference on the 5.8Ghz band. Once the control signal was lost, it was strictly operating by GPS and compass... the signal interference then became irrelevant.

The lesson I might take from this is in the event I ever experience this violent wobble again, and it appears the Phantom is not responding to my control inputs in any way, I will turn off my receiver or flip S1 to initiate RTH and hope that this makes some difference. It would really be the only option left to save the Phantom at this point, assuming the Phantom isn't responding to any control inputs.
 
srandall25 said:
rrhansen said:
Next day, went out again - this time it was about 550' altitude / 850' distance over a ravine (trying to capture wildlife) and in a steady hover (sticks at dead-neutral) while I adjusted the camera to straight down. I noticed on FPV it violently rocking / descending, looked up, and watched it dropping behind the hilltop. Crap - here we go again!!! I started hiking towards it when all of a sudden, FPV shows RTH...and low and behold - up it comes from behind the hilltop flying home - yahoo!! Reviewing the video that it recorded - which captured the entire 5-8 second violent descent - it did the same drastic rocking back and forth while falling like a rock...but suddenly stabilized at what I'm guessing was about 100-200' - determined it had lost signal over the hill - and initiated RTH.

I found this excerpt very interesting... I had this problem with my first Vision+ (now flying my replacement with no problems). What I found interesting was that the violent wobble went away once it entered RTH mode.. at least that's what appears happened based on the description. If RTH mode did indeed stop the violent wobble, then that would indicate signal interference to the Tx control. RTH still needs GPS for RTH so it appears GPS was fine. I believe RTH also relies on the compass and acceleromter as well so I would assume those are good. RTH obviously does not rely on a signal from the Tx with the exception for initiation of RTH. I'm assuming at this point that while the Phantom was in a wobble, it had a connection with the Tx but also experienced a signal interference on the 5.8Ghz band. Once the control signal was lost, it was strictly operating by GPS and compass... the signal interference then became irrelevant.

The lesson I might take from this is in the event I ever experience this violent wobble again, and it appears the Phantom is not responding to my control inputs in any way, I will turn off my receiver or flip S1 to initiate RTH and hope that this makes some difference. It would really be the only option left to save the Phantom at this point, assuming the Phantom isn't responding to any control inputs.

Very interesting hypothesis... I cannot tell you with certainty that it was the loss of signal, thereby RTH-induced, that caused it to pull out of the uncontrolled descent. In thinking back through it, I'm not sure it would have had time to get to RTH-mode and override the wobble...in support of your theory. I've since shipped it back for exchange (B&H came through - bless them) since I didn't want to risk flying it again and lose it or break it into an un-exchangable state.

Hopefully neither of us will have to test this out :cool:
 
I'll give you my observations on stability in descent.

I've had my Phantom 2 Vision+ about 2 weeks and have flown it around 35 times. I've been as high as 1050 feet and then descended straight down with the left hand stick in full down position to a couple hundred feet. I didn't notice any issues. Sometime I hear the motors change tune as they increase/decrease powertor maintain position but I haven't noticed any scary movements from the Phantom itself when descending. I routinely descend from 400 feet to 100 feet full stick down without lateral motion and again, I don't have any problems.

Now, I'll tell you what I have noticed that is interesting to me now after reading this post and seeing lots of references to 20 feet or 30 feet height and the phantom suddenly rocking violently and dropping to the ground: When I descend full stick down from around 50 feet or less, I DO see some rocking motion that makes me uncomfortable. So at those low altitudes, I just don't descend at maximum stick position.

I do not use prop guards and it sounds like those are suspect in causing or aiding the phenomenon at higher altitudes. I think the 2 m/s descent rate will help this to not happen.
 
Not sure if the last posting (robininni's) was in reference to my experiences - but to reiterate that portion of my posting - prior to both of the uncontrolled (crash) descents - the quad was simply 'sitting' in a hover - not descending. I've experienced what robininni references regarding some minor instability in a strong (controller-directed) descent - but that is unrelated to the phenomena in question (uncontrolled, drop-like-a-wounded-duck, nothing will stop it - descent).
Happy flying.
 
rrhansen said:
Not sure if the last posting (robininni's) was in reference to my experiences - but to reiterate that portion of my posting - prior to both of the uncontrolled (crash) descents - the quad was simply 'sitting' in a hover - not descending. I've experienced what robininni references regarding some minor instability in a strong (controller-directed) descent - but that is unrelated to the phenomena in question (uncontrolled, drop-like-a-wounded-duck, nothing will stop it - descent).
Happy flying.

Oh, yeah, I was talking about in descent. Just dropping out of hover is scary stuff! Surely that's a electronics problem. Motor's cutting out or something.
 
I am back in in the air again thanks to a quick turn around time with B&H.

Recap: my first P2V+ crashed on the second flight, did the warble from 800 ft up, and hit the dirt. It was new right out of here box and no guards added.

Called B&H that Monday and got an RMA. Sent it in, and got the email to show they have received it and will be checking it out, two days later, got an email stating that a P2V+ has been shipped out to my address.

Got it Thursday and before doing any flying, I updated the firmware. Done 3 flights today and so far, so good.

But the more I hear about others crashing like mine, the more I worry about it now. I already had a new battery go bad on me too and that P2V dropped out of here air too, minor damage and was back in the air the next day, but the battery is still out for the count. DJI has a ticket on it and on my first battery since about early May some time.




Phantom 2 Vision
Phantom 2 Vision+ (#2)
UAV Pilot 4 Fun - Allan
Cypress TX


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
UAV Pilot 4 fun said:
I already had a new battery go bad on me too and that P2V dropped out of here air too, minor damage and was back in the air the next day, but the battery is still out for the count.
You had a P2V drop out of the sky due to a failed battery and only had minor damage? If the battery failed, I would assume this was a total power loss and all the motors stopped. How high up were you? I'm just amazed you only had minor damage. Thank god for you on that one...
 
The Phantom Vision 2+ that started this thread came back from DJI today! It looks great and works great.

It came with a letter inside saying, "We have replaced your camera. The firmware has been updated to version 3.4 for heavy payload stability. Phantom has been test flown and is fully operational." The rest of the letter had a URL to where to download the Phantom 2 Assistant Software v3.0. I'm not sure what the 3.4 firmware is all about but it won't be hard to find out.

They included everything I sent with it, including my writeup of what happened and the history of this Phantom. They sent it to me next-day UPS from their LA office.

Everyone I spoke to at DJI in LA was very friendly, patient, and helpful. I interacted with maybe 4 different people and they were all very friendly and concerned and nobody ever tried to rush me off the phone. They definitely had phone queue problems back when I was trying to get an RMA, but once I got the RMA they delivered on their estimated timeline. I got three updates via email. One when they processed my shipment (maybe a week after they received it) and then another when they moved it into the repair queue some time later. I didn't bug them via email or phone. Then yesterday I got an email saying repairs were complete and the Phantom had been flight tested. Today it arrived mid-day.

I have to say I could not be happier with my interaction with DJI. Their timing is perfectly reasonable for a new company who is dealing with a Chinese parent company or supplier or whatever DJI China's relationship is with DJI in LA. I forgive their phone problems (for now anyway) because once someone picked up I could tell they were really trying to do a good job. Maybe they could use some more people on the phone lines, but whatever, I got through, talked to someone, and they followed through with exactly what they said they would when they would (first with the RMA, then with the repair).

Good stuff all around for a company selling magical GPS flying-eye robots from the future.

As for this particular Phantom there will be no more prop guards, no flying over or close to people, cars, water, or expensive property, and definitely no more assumption that just because the thing looks slick and flies well that it can't suddenly drop out of the sky at any moment. Feels fair to me.

Cheers and thanks for the good discussions here.
 
Some friendly advice from someone who also experienced this same event twice... if you get the wobble of death or VRS, never increase throttle (left stick), as this is said to only make it worse... you need to 'right stick' out of it... pitch or roll away from the 'bad air'... as an extra precaution, you could also switch to ATTI mode (S1 switch to middle position in NAZA mode) just in case your problem has anything to do with lack of GPS or GPS interference.... So, immediately switch to ATTI, right stick in one direction only and commit to that direction.. do not move in multiple directions...

to avoid such situations, avoid flying below and near a rock ridge line where up drafts can contribute to such an event... avoid flying between tall massive obstacles that lend to up drafts as well... avoid flying near a steep hill side of any sort...

Welcome Back!!!
 
Are updraft's the issue? Or should that be downdrafts that reduce lift? All the same I guess, stay clear of structures with this potential.
 
rrhansen said:
Are updraft's the issue? Or should that be downdrafts that reduce lift? All the same I guess, stay clear of structures with this potential.

could be either i would imagine... props push air down or create a negative air pressure below.. if air moves up in the right manner, it could negate the negative air pressure required for lift...
 
rrhansen said:
Are updraft's the issue?
I assume that strong updrafts have the same capacity to cause VRS as fast direct descent: upward air flow pushes air up through the axis area of the prop, starting the air cycle that becomes VRS. In either case, lateral movement is needed to break the cycle, and along a sheer cliff, that may not be easy.

Of course, I have no proof of that. I'm just applying the concept.
 

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