Newbe question. Im flying recreationally and an area I want to fly in is about 4.5 miles from a local airport. So do i just need to contact them and let them know i will be flying in this area or do i need to get their approval as well?
Airport Contact Question
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Hopefully it will be a pleasant experience, but there are some rules. Your requirement is to 'notify' the airport of your intended flight. When you do that the airport has the choice to approve the flight, or they can 'object' to the flight. They can not prohibit the flight, but that has been beat to death here.
If the airport objects to the flight, and you decide to assert your privilege, as a hobbyist, to fly anyway, it will be up to the airport to determine if your flight did, in fact, interfere with manned aircraft. If you do interfere with manned aircraft, you are subject to enforcement action by the FAA.
P.S. If they choose not to object to the flight, you still must not interfere with manned aircraft.
If the airport objects to the flight, and you decide to assert your privilege, as a hobbyist, to fly anyway, it will be up to the airport to determine if your flight did, in fact, interfere with manned aircraft. If you do interfere with manned aircraft, you are subject to enforcement action by the FAA.
P.S. If they choose not to object to the flight, you still must not interfere with manned aircraft.
As long as you are not flying in class B airspace, only notification is required. That being said, if they object it's probably for a good reason and I would suggest following their advice - or contact airport management to discuss (I don't advise arguing with ATC on the phone, they are probably busy enough). Personally, I've never had an airport object.
when i fly within the 5 miles air space...to a airport....I tell them where i am going to take the drone UP......how high and how long i will be flying..They have Never turned me down and ONLY ask me to give them a call when im done......They don't ask for my FAA numbers or even my name...I'm sure they know my name with the caller ID system....and they always thank me for the ending flight call.
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Unless you're flying in Class BRAVO ("B") airspace you're only notifying but, as noted above, they can "object" to the flight. If they object and you fly anyway don't be surprised if local LEO show up to have a word of prayer with you. It's your word against theirs from that point on and I'm afraid "Aviation Safety" is a high priority and you'll likely not appreciate the outcome if you decide to go against the grain.
Class BRAVO requires approval not just notification.
Class BRAVO requires approval not just notification.
The few airports I have looked into have a form on their website:
Where:
When:
How High:
How Long:
Where:
When:
How High:
How Long:
Let's back up here just a bit. I know what the FAA states on this matter but they are known liars and proven incorrect on their prior interpretations of law. So we really need to look at the regulation directly. You are going to reference 91.131 as the regulation that applies to operating a drone within Class B airspace. If this were correct, the following would also apply to drone fliers:
(b)Pilot requirements.
(1) No person may take off or land a civil aircraft at an airport within a Class B airspace area or operate a civil aircraft within a Class B airspace area unless -
(i) The pilot in command holds at least a private pilot certificate;
(ii) The pilot in command holds a recreational pilot certificate and has met -
(A) The requirements of § 61.101(d) of this chapter; or
(B) The requirements for a student pilot seeking a recreational pilot certificate in § 61.94 of this chapter;
The list goes on and on with references to pilots and (obviously) manned aircraft. So you say a person operating a drone within Class B airspace needs permission, not notification. Well, according to the regulation you state applies, the person also needs to hold a recreational pilots certificate, has the ability to launch and land their drone at the airport, needs a VOR receiver on their drone as well as a transponder, 2 way radio to communicate with the ATC, etc. There are a few other requirements as well.
Point being, it's _highly_ questionable that this regulation would apply to unmanned aircraft. I think the regulation is quite clear in that it talks about manned aircraft.
Again, it's been shown that the FAA will state that something is a regulation when it is not (they claimed a 400' regulation but then admitted that they lied) and that they have made their own interpretations that were proven to be incorrect.
Man you get yourself in a tizzy too easily. I am merely stating exactly what I was told (first hand not hearsay) by an FAA sUAS liaison and also what is listed on the FAA's website (which I admit should be taken with a grain of salt many times). You spent way too much time gathering the above information to prove me wrong. I didn't try and interpret the FAR's (and I sure never said anything like I was trying to do that). I merely shared what I was told and what's listed on the FAQ from the FAA. Take exception to it if you will and if you wish to go against it then decide to fight it I hope the best for you. As for me, when I give advice and someone follows it I have no worry about them being on the wrong side of the law. Maybe I am overly cautious but at the end of the day I'm flying well within the laws and have nothing to worry about. To each their own . . .
You went so far as to state:
"You are going to reference 91.131 as the regulation that applies to operating a drone within Class B airspace."
and
"Well, according to the regulation you state applies,"
Both of those are purely YOUR words that you are trying to put into MY mouth. I didn't state those regs or anything other than "Class BRAVO requires approval not just notification." Please do not try and put words into my mouth. I will handle that task myself.
I personally don't have any problem with sUAS being heavy controlled when flying in any portion of BRAVO airspace. I'm a little surprised you take such a strong exception to this.
Airports
Recreational operators are required to give notice for flights within five miles of an airport to both the airport operator and air traffic control tower, if the airport has a tower. However, recreational operations are not permitted in Class B airspace around most major airports without specific air traffic permission and coordination.
Airspace Restrictions
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That is what I was asked when I called. But they were also very nice about it. ( Orlando Fl )
Sorry but when you state only the following, Class BRAVO requires approval not just notification, it seems like you are stating this as fact. No other context was given as to it only being what you were told or what was on the FAA website... just the single statement.
I don't doubt for a moment that someone at the FAA told you this. I also doubt they really understood the issue and it is a fact that people at the FAA lie and that the FAA as a whole has lied. I'm sure you recall all of the lies the FAA put out about a 400' rule. They then confirmed that there was no such restriction. They have lied about many other UAV related things as well. So forgive me if I doubt things that the FAA states as a whole and certainly what one unknown person happens to mention in passing.
Actually I'm going by your words:
Recreational Operation in Class B Airspace
"Class Bravo carries it's own set of rules (some are the same as other classes but some are not) and this one is for ALL aircraft (which UAS are indeed now aircraft):
§ 91.131 Operations in Class B airspace.
(a)Operating rules. No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B airspace area except in compliance with § 91.129 and the following rules:
(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area."
I'm just trying to let people know _all_ of the facts. If someone only states, "you need permission not just notification to fly in Class B airspace", I'm going to point out that the facts don't seem to support this (and give examples of why). THEN people can make their own decisions.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
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I've been dealing with the FAA professionally and recreationally for over two decades. They have yet to spin a lie my way.
'Nuff said.
SB
It would be helpful to note that the operating rules for sUAS operations have many parallels to fixed wing manned operations. Being in “communications” with ATC in certain airspace is one of them. Having a clearance in class B airspace is another.
It is also handy to recall the golden rule— he/she who has the gold makes the rules. Interpreting FAA regulations can be hard at times, but not so much when it is noted as to why they exist in the first place, to keep aircraft separated as much as humanly possible.
We owe it to ourselves to try to comply with the rules and intent of those rules.
It is also handy to recall the golden rule— he/she who has the gold makes the rules. Interpreting FAA regulations can be hard at times, but not so much when it is noted as to why they exist in the first place, to keep aircraft separated as much as humanly possible.
We owe it to ourselves to try to comply with the rules and intent of those rules.
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FWIW, they certainly have given me incorrect information in the past and there's what appears to be misinformation on their website (e.g. the text that makes it look like recreational pilots need to register under Part 107 here). They also seem to purposely communicate in a vague way. Is that lying? Maybe not. It's not helpful though.
I usually refrain from going toe to toe with you simply because you get so much pleasure from a good heated debate but I'm calling BS on this one. Unless you mean you scoured the forums and are trying to use everything I've ever posted on this forum in this one single discussion you're reaching. At no point in this thread, prior to your interjection, had I posted anything about the actual restrictions or linked/quoted to the FAA's quote from their website yet you clearly stated that I had or stated "for me" that I was going to. I'm just not going to sit down and allow you to bully and try to twist things around to make it appear as though I said anything (or quoted) that I did not. I'll debate you until the cows come home but I'll only do so if you are accurate in what you're stating/claiming. Anything less is unacceptable.
As I stated earlier, I fully understand and acknowledge that the FAA isn't perfect and their words should be taken with a grain of salt. Until I hear/see it in writing that what they said/posted incorrect I'll always err on the side of caution and suggest anyone else do the same. We have the busiest airspace on the planet yet, "Arguably", the safest aviation safety record. That comes from pilots acting like professionals and erring on the side of caution and attempting to make good solid SAFE decisions to the best of their ability as opposed to being cowboys and renegades and trying to out smart the regs. Why should sUAS pilots operate any differently?
I gave the information, as best I could, from what the FAA has said and depicted on their website. My advice is SAFE & SOUND advice. If someone chooses to follow it they will NOT have to worry about violating any rules, laws, or codes. Can you say the same and be 100% certain?
Actually, I wanted to read up on this Class B thing so I used the search feature of the forum.
I'm not trying to bully you. My apologies if this is how you took it. You had posted the information, so that is what I commented on.
I only posted my take on the regulation that was being used to say permission was needed and offered supports for that view. I did also go further and point out that the permission thing was being as fact but that this was questionable.
I don't disagree that this is probably for the best.
I'm not addressing the safety of the matter nor condoning that people don't obtain permission. What I _do_ advocate is that people understand the situation and decide for themselves what is best. My posts only give this information and I certainly welcome feedback.
A good example is the "400 rule". Is it better that people understand that it is not a hobby regulation but a recommendation by the FAA or is it better that they be lied to and told it is a regulation so they are "more safe"? If someone states that it is a regulation, I'm going to explain that it is not. That does not mean I think people should fly over 400' or that I'm "bullying" that poster.
Hey, I'm gonna step out for a bit. Anybody want anything from Dunkin' Donuts?
I happen to be an air traffic controller at a vfr tower in SW Florida (class D airspace) To be honest the rules keep changing from what seems like day to day. I am also a private pilot and licensed drone pilot. If you are going to be outside of our airspace and remain there, have fun, be safe, and follow the rules and no notification is required. If your flight will take you inside the airspace please give us a call, to let us know when, where, alt, and duration. If you have a waiver then all that is required is a notification of when and how long. We may deny the flight for safety reasons based on traffic and other factors. This rarely happens, in fact it has only happened once in the last 2 years and that was because the individual wanted to fly right in the final approach path of aircraft. As a courtesy I ask that you give us an additional call when you have finished your flight. Have fun and be safe.
This means a lot. Nice to hear from the tower that feedback is encouraged! I often feel like I'm bothering folks with more important things to do. Thanks
We had an interesting conversation this morning with the FAA and I thought I'd share what was quoted to us:
Me~ In regards to Class "B" airspace as a hobbyist, how is it that the FAA can say that one portion of the FARs (Bravo requires ATC approval) apply and others do not (Pilot's License requirement for instance). How can hobbyists be required to follow one portion of the FARs and not another in the same section/subsection? Where can I find the "legal" version of this and not just the FAA's FAQ page?
FAA ~
The FAA's legal interpretation of the Special Rule for Model Aircraft stipulates the airspace requirements for model aircraft operators. As you can see below, it does require that a model aircraft operator comply with the airspace provisions in Part 91. This is a total surprise to most people and we at the FAA have not pushed this issue very hard. I believe the last sentence below, sums it up nicely.
Rules governing operations in designated airspace are found in §§ 91.126 through 91.135. In general, those rules establish requirements for operating in the various classes of airspace, and near airports in non-designated airspace to minimize risk of collision in higher traffic airspace. Generally, if an operator is unable to comply with the regulatory requirements for operating in a particular class of airspace, the operator would need authorization from air traffic control to operate in that area. See, e.g., 14 CFR 91.127(a), 91.129(a). Operations within restricted areas designated in part 73 would be prohibited without permission from the using or controlling agency. Accordingly, as part of the requirements for model aircraft operations within 5 miles of an airport set forth in section 336(a)(4) of P.L. 112-95, the FAA would expect modelers operating model aircraft in airspace covered by §§ 91.126 through 91.135 and part 73 to obtain authorization from air traffic control prior to operating.
https://www.faa.gov/uas/media/model_aircraft_spec_rule.pdf
Me~ In regards to Class "B" airspace as a hobbyist, how is it that the FAA can say that one portion of the FARs (Bravo requires ATC approval) apply and others do not (Pilot's License requirement for instance). How can hobbyists be required to follow one portion of the FARs and not another in the same section/subsection? Where can I find the "legal" version of this and not just the FAA's FAQ page?
FAA ~
The FAA's legal interpretation of the Special Rule for Model Aircraft stipulates the airspace requirements for model aircraft operators. As you can see below, it does require that a model aircraft operator comply with the airspace provisions in Part 91. This is a total surprise to most people and we at the FAA have not pushed this issue very hard. I believe the last sentence below, sums it up nicely.
Rules governing operations in designated airspace are found in §§ 91.126 through 91.135. In general, those rules establish requirements for operating in the various classes of airspace, and near airports in non-designated airspace to minimize risk of collision in higher traffic airspace. Generally, if an operator is unable to comply with the regulatory requirements for operating in a particular class of airspace, the operator would need authorization from air traffic control to operate in that area. See, e.g., 14 CFR 91.127(a), 91.129(a). Operations within restricted areas designated in part 73 would be prohibited without permission from the using or controlling agency. Accordingly, as part of the requirements for model aircraft operations within 5 miles of an airport set forth in section 336(a)(4) of P.L. 112-95, the FAA would expect modelers operating model aircraft in airspace covered by §§ 91.126 through 91.135 and part 73 to obtain authorization from air traffic control prior to operating.
https://www.faa.gov/uas/media/model_aircraft_spec_rule.pdf
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