Airline Pilots tell Stories
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msinger
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An aircraft is an aircraft. Throwing in the word "hobbyist" does not make you different than any other UAV flying in the air.flyNfrank said:
For starters, you may not fly above 400 feet above ground level (AGL) AND you must be able to see your aircraft at all times. Those are probably the two rules that are most commonly broken.
msinger said:
I'd say you don't live in the US. Otherwise you wouldn't be into the aerial policeman role with those that mention flying above 400ft. For the FAA, it was told here around 3 weeks ago that the Supreme Court told the FAA they have until October 2015 to get regulations in place for the UAS. The media said however they thought the FAA may have something in place by the end of this year. In the meantime there is still no regulations specific to our aircraft. They say in the meantime it is a guide that we go by. There is no laws or anything in place to enforce, yet.
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Well, you would be wrong. And, I'm just laying out some well documented facts.flyNfrank said:
Right... kind of. The existing FAA rules apply to all aircraft. A lot of the rules don't make sense for UAVs though -- which is why they are working to amend them.flyNfrank said:
This is where you're wrong. You are required to follow all FAA rules if you fly any type of aircraft above ground level.flyNfrank said:
I think you know what you're doing is not legal. You just really enjoy flying 400 feet+ in the air and beyond your line of sight, so you're grasping at anything that makes it seem like those activities are okay.
I must beg to differ about the FAA and it's ability to enforce rules/regulations in airspace. Now, before I get blasted, hear (or read) me out.
The FAA DOES have governing authority over any 'craft' that uses airspace. Be it a 747, a helicopter, a hot air balloon, an ultralite, and yes, even our little UAV/UAS. As a CFII, it is my job to ensure my students read, understand, and adhere to those FARs that pertain to them at their currently level of training. Now, granted, there is not currently a 'training regime' for UAV/UAS pilots, but I am sure there is something in the pipes via the FAA.
As far as the regulations, I am at my 'real' job right now so I don't have the time to dig through the FARs and post he specific ones that will prove to you that yes, the FAA DOES have governing authority even now. Is there anything specific for UAV/UAS craft? No, again something is in the works.
On the flip side of that, for those of you who pilot aircraft from within the craft... Lets think back to how many stories we've heard about a PPL venturing into a wayward cloud just to see what it is like, or a VFR pilot scraping the bottoms or poking through a 'thin layer.' Has that VFR pilot violated the FARs? Sure they have. Now, is there some big eye in the sky that is going to call them on it and send an e-ticket for the violation? No, unfortunately. We as pilots of both large and small craft really have to police ourselves to both maintain safety and share the skies.
Even if the FAA puts these rules in place, they are still going to be violated. As in flying full sized aircraft, nothing will be said until 'that one time' when an incident or accident happens. (There is a difference between accident and incident, another FAR reference). I will tell you this.... WHEN something does happen, say a collision with an airplane and a UAV/UAS there will be hell to pay and knowing the FAA like I do they will make an example out of the pilot in error. We must remember that as PIC (Pilot in command) you are responsible for that craft at all times.
Getting back to the original post, are these pilot's seeing UAV/UAS units in the air? As Jetfixer stated, when I'm on final approach, my eyes are constantly scanning, my head is on the tip of a needle looking around. I too have a hard time picking full sized aircraft out when they are called out by ATC. I can't imagine being able to see my little UAV/UAS unless it is REALLY close to my approach path or aircraft. Maybe there are some UAV/UAS pilots out there who like to live on the wild side and want a close of up a 747 on final approach, I don't know. But either way, I find it hard to believe they are seeing these things unless they are RIGHT NEXT to the aircraft, and even then the differing speeds would make it very difficult.
The FAA DOES have governing authority over any 'craft' that uses airspace. Be it a 747, a helicopter, a hot air balloon, an ultralite, and yes, even our little UAV/UAS. As a CFII, it is my job to ensure my students read, understand, and adhere to those FARs that pertain to them at their currently level of training. Now, granted, there is not currently a 'training regime' for UAV/UAS pilots, but I am sure there is something in the pipes via the FAA.
As far as the regulations, I am at my 'real' job right now so I don't have the time to dig through the FARs and post he specific ones that will prove to you that yes, the FAA DOES have governing authority even now. Is there anything specific for UAV/UAS craft? No, again something is in the works.
On the flip side of that, for those of you who pilot aircraft from within the craft... Lets think back to how many stories we've heard about a PPL venturing into a wayward cloud just to see what it is like, or a VFR pilot scraping the bottoms or poking through a 'thin layer.' Has that VFR pilot violated the FARs? Sure they have. Now, is there some big eye in the sky that is going to call them on it and send an e-ticket for the violation? No, unfortunately. We as pilots of both large and small craft really have to police ourselves to both maintain safety and share the skies.
Even if the FAA puts these rules in place, they are still going to be violated. As in flying full sized aircraft, nothing will be said until 'that one time' when an incident or accident happens. (There is a difference between accident and incident, another FAR reference). I will tell you this.... WHEN something does happen, say a collision with an airplane and a UAV/UAS there will be hell to pay and knowing the FAA like I do they will make an example out of the pilot in error. We must remember that as PIC (Pilot in command) you are responsible for that craft at all times.
Getting back to the original post, are these pilot's seeing UAV/UAS units in the air? As Jetfixer stated, when I'm on final approach, my eyes are constantly scanning, my head is on the tip of a needle looking around. I too have a hard time picking full sized aircraft out when they are called out by ATC. I can't imagine being able to see my little UAV/UAS unless it is REALLY close to my approach path or aircraft. Maybe there are some UAV/UAS pilots out there who like to live on the wild side and want a close of up a 747 on final approach, I don't know. But either way, I find it hard to believe they are seeing these things unless they are RIGHT NEXT to the aircraft, and even then the differing speeds would make it very difficult.
Couchie said:
Exactly. The same point I was trying to get across. T-Y....
But I do know what msinger is trying to say. There is a general set of "something" that is expected by anyone operating anything in the sky. I put the word "something" because I would think it to be a set of guidelines, not expectations, or a written list. Whatever the circumstances may be, I know there is not yet a specific set of regulations for our UAS. And also we are not classified as UAV's. A UAV "Unmanned Aerial Vehicle" are simply stated, vehicles. And vehicles are used to transport whatever. And with that being said it would interesting to see how Amazon's PrimeAir is classified with their aircraft when they will be carrying tubes with items and such. They would have to be UAV's, technically.
Btw, I do want to say I'm not schooled in the FAA in anyway. I only know what I have read from somewhere else, or over heard. I don't know FAA's regulations, but I do know what I have read that might in anyway pertain to the UAS. So in other words, if you are in trouble, you do not want me on your jury. LOL!
msinger
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You are still missing the boat here...flyNfrank said:
It's true that there are no rules specific to UAVs. But, that does not mean there are no rules for UAVs. UAVs must currently follow all FAA regulations. (This is what Couchie is trying to tell you above.)
The issue at hand is a classic misinterpretation of the law.
This is an area of law where misintepretentation can be very costly since we are dealing with the administrative branch and not the criminal branch. In this arena you are not innocent until proven guilty. My recommendation is to not do things to bring the eye of the FAA upon you.
Strictly my opinion.
This is an area of law where misintepretentation can be very costly since we are dealing with the administrative branch and not the criminal branch. In this arena you are not innocent until proven guilty. My recommendation is to not do things to bring the eye of the FAA upon you.
Strictly my opinion.
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LandYachtMedia, well said.
And, if you are doing these things, by all means, do not go onto the Internet and brag about it in forums :shock:
And, if you are doing these things, by all means, do not go onto the Internet and brag about it in forums :shock:
You are right, I did miss the boat. But that's only because I'm up here on the ship with the others that understand that 400ft is not a regulation put in place for the UAS. Nobody will be handing out a fine for anyone that exceeds 400ft. If it was a regulation that was enforced, then everything would be different up to this point. A difference for me would be I would have never flown beyond that altitude. And I would then be whistling the same song you have been all along.
I mean seriously, as much as a company like DJI has invested into their product, the last thing they would want to see happen is the hobbyist screw it up as if the FAA would put it all on lock-down. If that were indeed the case, they would have removed that ability near the beginning of things. It would have been a done deal, similar to how they added the airport restriction part in the software. And it's because of this is why I don't believe it's necessary to roach someone that post they have flown above 400ft.
I mean seriously, as much as a company like DJI has invested into their product, the last thing they would want to see happen is the hobbyist screw it up as if the FAA would put it all on lock-down. If that were indeed the case, they would have removed that ability near the beginning of things. It would have been a done deal, similar to how they added the airport restriction part in the software. And it's because of this is why I don't believe it's necessary to roach someone that post they have flown above 400ft.
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flyNfrank, you are a piece of work, sir. The facts are staring you in the face -- yet you refuse to believe them.
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flyNfrank, this has nothing to do with feelings. I just don't want your ignorance to mislead anyone that genuinely does not know the FAA rules apply to all aircraft.
I almost feel like I'm talking to my two kids in this post, but I'll do it anyway. Please, no offense is intended here.
You are both right in the argument. Indeed, as I stated before, the FAA does have domain over airspace and therefore any 'craft' that operates in it. That would be whether specifically mentioned by make, model, brand name, or general statement. If it breaks gravity's grasp and ascends into the heavens, the FAA has regulations that covers it.
The 400' suggestion is just that. There is no regulation that says you must fly your UAV/UAS at or below 400' AGL (above ground level). There IS however a regulation keeping 'aircraft' 500' AGL in rural areas and 1,000' in urban areas except in certain circumstances.. So, with that being said, the 400' AGL suggestion IS just that.. to stay away from the possibility of running into large aircraft. Heck, you could ascend to 17,999' and still be legal as long as you see and avoid other aircraft and follow the cloud clearance FARs as posted earlier.
Then comes the common sense part of the conversation. If you are buzzing along at 17,999' and a 747 is descending behind you out of your view and he can't see you because you are under his nose (ATC can't see you) than this would create a bad day. I am exaggerating the altitude, but adjust as necessary.
My opinion in this is that we need to be careful in how we use our equipment. Sure, buz along at 3,000 feet but you need to be able to see your craft and avoid other craft and obstacles in the airspace.
What it boils down to is that you are in essence an unlicensed VFR (Visual Flight Rules) Private Pilot. VFR pilots are trained to see and avoid, as stated earlier. Now, you flying the UAV/UAS must also see and avoid. If you can't see your UAV/UAS you can't avoid another aircraft in the same space as you. Since these craft can only 'see' a 120 degree range in front of them with the camera, this limits the ability to 'see and avoid' by using the camera.
There, I think I've covered it. I'm still going to go digging into the FAR's this evening. I'll probably create a different post with the relevant FAR's that would pertained to UAV/UASs.
I must also say that these are my opinions and I by no means am saying I'm an expert in the FAR field!
You are both right in the argument. Indeed, as I stated before, the FAA does have domain over airspace and therefore any 'craft' that operates in it. That would be whether specifically mentioned by make, model, brand name, or general statement. If it breaks gravity's grasp and ascends into the heavens, the FAA has regulations that covers it.
The 400' suggestion is just that. There is no regulation that says you must fly your UAV/UAS at or below 400' AGL (above ground level). There IS however a regulation keeping 'aircraft' 500' AGL in rural areas and 1,000' in urban areas except in certain circumstances.. So, with that being said, the 400' AGL suggestion IS just that.. to stay away from the possibility of running into large aircraft. Heck, you could ascend to 17,999' and still be legal as long as you see and avoid other aircraft and follow the cloud clearance FARs as posted earlier.
Then comes the common sense part of the conversation. If you are buzzing along at 17,999' and a 747 is descending behind you out of your view and he can't see you because you are under his nose (ATC can't see you) than this would create a bad day. I am exaggerating the altitude, but adjust as necessary.
My opinion in this is that we need to be careful in how we use our equipment. Sure, buz along at 3,000 feet but you need to be able to see your craft and avoid other craft and obstacles in the airspace.
What it boils down to is that you are in essence an unlicensed VFR (Visual Flight Rules) Private Pilot. VFR pilots are trained to see and avoid, as stated earlier. Now, you flying the UAV/UAS must also see and avoid. If you can't see your UAV/UAS you can't avoid another aircraft in the same space as you. Since these craft can only 'see' a 120 degree range in front of them with the camera, this limits the ability to 'see and avoid' by using the camera.
There, I think I've covered it. I'm still going to go digging into the FAR's this evening. I'll probably create a different post with the relevant FAR's that would pertained to UAV/UASs.
I must also say that these are my opinions and I by no means am saying I'm an expert in the FAR field!
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While it's true that there is no FAR, there is an interesting quote at the following link:Couchie said:
http://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=76240
The FAA says:
And, this letter:
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/med ... /91-57.pdf
States the following:
And, this link:
https://www.faa.gov/uas
States the following:
I don't know what that means to you. But, to a little kid like myself, I think it means I better not fly above 400 feet AGL. And, you, being a pilot, will most likely lose your pilot license if you do so AND are caught by the FAA.
Jetfixer said:
I agree 100% with this. These pilots are so full of ****. I used to look up to pilots and i understand their concern but spotting a phantom from a plane travelling at minimum 200 mph seems nearly impossible. If the phantom is so easy to see then Sully would have been able to avoid the birds.
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clingermac, you could be onto something there. If they all look like flyNfrank's Phantom, I bet you could spot them from a mile away 
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For those that are not aware of the rules:
What Can I Do With My Model Aircraft?
Hobby/Recreational Flying
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Having fun means flying safely! Hobby or recreational flying doesn't require FAA approval but you must follow safety guidelines. Any other use requires FAA authorization.
Avoid doing anything hazardous to other airplanes or people and property on the ground.
"Dos"
Do fly a model aircraft/UAS at the local model aircraft club
Do take lessons and learn to fly safely
Do contact the airport or control tower when flying within 5 miles of the airport
Do fly a model aircraft for personal enjoyment
"Don'ts"
Don't fly near manned aircraft
Don't fly beyond line of sight of the operator
Don't fly an aircraft weighing more than 55 lbs unless it's certified by an aeromodeling community-based organization
Don't fly contrary to your aeromodeling community-based safety guidelines
Don't fly model aircraft for payment or commercial purposes
Model Aircraft Operations Limits
According to the FAA Modernization and Reform Act of 2012 as (1) the aircraft is flown strictly for hobby or recreational use; (2) the aircraft is operated in accordance with a community-based set of safety guidelines and within the programming of a nationwide community-based organization; (3) the aircraft is limited to not more than 55 pounds unless otherwise certified through a design, construction, inspection, flight test, and operational safety program administered by a community-based organization; (4) the aircraft is operated in a manner that does not interfere with and gives way to any manned aircraft; (5) when flown within 5 miles of an airport, the operator of the aircraft provides the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower…with prior notice of the operation; and (6) the aircraft is flown within visual line sight of the operator.
More information about safety and training guidelines
The FAA welcomes comments from the public on its Interpretation of the Special Rule for Model Aircraft, which may help further inform its interpretation of the statutory language in Section 336 of the FAA Modernization and Reform Act of 2012 regarding Model Aircraft operations. Please visit the Federal Rulemaking Portal and follow the instructions for sending your comments electronically.
Source: http://www.faa.gov/uas/publications/mod ... operators/
What Can I Do With My Model Aircraft?
Hobby/Recreational Flying
Share
Having fun means flying safely! Hobby or recreational flying doesn't require FAA approval but you must follow safety guidelines. Any other use requires FAA authorization.
Avoid doing anything hazardous to other airplanes or people and property on the ground.
"Dos"
Do fly a model aircraft/UAS at the local model aircraft club
Do take lessons and learn to fly safely
Do contact the airport or control tower when flying within 5 miles of the airport
Do fly a model aircraft for personal enjoyment
"Don'ts"
Don't fly near manned aircraft
Don't fly beyond line of sight of the operator
Don't fly an aircraft weighing more than 55 lbs unless it's certified by an aeromodeling community-based organization
Don't fly contrary to your aeromodeling community-based safety guidelines
Don't fly model aircraft for payment or commercial purposes
Model Aircraft Operations Limits
According to the FAA Modernization and Reform Act of 2012 as (1) the aircraft is flown strictly for hobby or recreational use; (2) the aircraft is operated in accordance with a community-based set of safety guidelines and within the programming of a nationwide community-based organization; (3) the aircraft is limited to not more than 55 pounds unless otherwise certified through a design, construction, inspection, flight test, and operational safety program administered by a community-based organization; (4) the aircraft is operated in a manner that does not interfere with and gives way to any manned aircraft; (5) when flown within 5 miles of an airport, the operator of the aircraft provides the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower…with prior notice of the operation; and (6) the aircraft is flown within visual line sight of the operator.
More information about safety and training guidelines
The FAA welcomes comments from the public on its Interpretation of the Special Rule for Model Aircraft, which may help further inform its interpretation of the statutory language in Section 336 of the FAA Modernization and Reform Act of 2012 regarding Model Aircraft operations. Please visit the Federal Rulemaking Portal and follow the instructions for sending your comments electronically.
Source: http://www.faa.gov/uas/publications/mod ... operators/
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