Uncertified Rogue Commercial Drone Operators

[Jeff Miller]

I agree. Report them and let them know that you reported them and maybe? Just maybe a few will either stop or go get their 107?

I also think that businesses that hire certified 107 holding pilots need to check credentials, insurance and ID before the job starts to be sure they are getting what they are paying for.

You need to make known to the realtors and others hiring rogue operators that they can also be held liable and fined for either flying un-certified or hiring an un-certified pilot to take their shots. The FAA will be ramping up to enforce their Part 107 and 333 laws and realtors are very much on their radar. They will really be on the radar after they post their first aerial shot. For this reason I would strongly advise to tell your realtor friends to keep copies of their drone pilots' credentials and proof of insurance on file. Its only a matter of time till the FAA starts cracking down on rogue commercial drone operators. They put too much time and money into formulating these laws to not enforce them. Check out this link.

FAA says Realtors who fly drones to shoot listing photos are not hobbyists

 

[wsalopek]

Post to Craigslist.

In the title, something like "beware of unlicensed drone operators" . . . Then explain more in the text.

And. . Yes. . . You can report to the FAA.

 

[Theo450]

I think that enforcement of part 107 will be ramping up soon. I called an atc to request clearance for my first commercial uav flight two days ago, and it was pretty apparent I was the first call like that the atc operator had received. He was very helpful, thankful, and encouraging. I am pretty sure the FAA does not screw around. The hammer will fall on non compliant operators soon enough.

 

[younggun84]

I have no interest in commercial drone operation, but I'd have to say I'd rather put energy in to getting the FAA out of the way instead of helping them enforce a fairly stupid regulation.

Crashes, unsafe flight, crashing planes, all already covered by one or more laws. I'm not trashing someone for doing what it takes to cover their butt in business, but I also won't trash the person who flies with the same skill and safety but isn't willing to bow to the FAAs ridiculous mandate.

You and they are both operating in the save field. They chose one business model and you chose another. Theirs has more risk with less overhead cost, yours lower with more cost. If the gov were not involved you could lower your cost without any added risk.

Some get upset because they want to do what's right, others view the cost and time required to get certified as a way to thin out the competition. I could never get behind using gov regulation to keep competition between businesses down.

If I were to hire someone I wouldn't care one bit of the FAA gave them a special piece of paper, only that they could do the job with the best results. Or that the results would be satisfactory with the minimal cost. In the real estate market you will probably be competing in the latter category unless dealing in very high end properties.


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[DrillRX]

I have no interest in commercial drone operation, but I'd have to say I'd rather put energy in to getting the FAA out of the way instead of helping them enforce a fairly stupid regulation.

Crashes, unsafe flight, crashing planes, all already covered by one or more laws. I'm not trashing someone for doing what it takes to cover their butt in business, but I also won't trash the person who flies with the same skill and safety but isn't willing to bow to the FAAs ridiculous mandate.

You and they are both operating in the save field. They chose one business model and you chose another. Theirs has more risk with less overhead cost, yours lower with more cost. If the gov were not involved you could lower your cost without any added risk.

Some get upset because they want to do what's right, others view the cost and time required to get certified as a way to thin out the competition. I could never get behind using gov regulation to keep competition between businesses down.

If I were to hire someone I wouldn't care one bit of the FAA gave them a special piece of paper, only that they could do the job with the best results. Or that the results would be satisfactory with the minimal cost. In the real estate market you will probably be competing in the latter category unless dealing in very high end properties.


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I am not the least bit interested in commercial flying, but do agree.

Better off figuring out why someone is getting all your business than to try to run them out of business because they are not "licensed". Unless you're a politician that's pretty scandalous.

It's the FAA job to do this. It's what they get paid for. Spend your energy honing your craft instead of checking the status of every pilot you're in competition with. You might even befriend them to see what their techniques are for getting the work they do get.

JMTC

 

[Jeff Miller]

Sorry but you don't know what you don't know. I'm Part 107 and Part 61 certified (licensed private pilot). I can tell you that the Part 107 test has maybe 5 or 6 questions that have anything to do with drones specifically and none on your skills as a drone pilot. If you don't know FAA regulations and know how to read a pilot's sectional map you have a very good chance of breaking FAA airspace regulations. Flying skills have nothing to do with it. If you live in a big city with a major airport, more than likely at some point you'll be flying in controlled airspace which is a major violation with very stiff penalties if you haven't contacted ATC prior to your flight. Airport areas aren't the only problem. There are thousands of areas with restricted airspace and unless you have a sectional map and know how to read it you could be breaking the law without realizing it. There is no way I would ever fly with even the most skilled pilot if he or she was clueless about the regulations and protocols that are in place to keep flying safe. It's only a matter of time till some clueless yo ho with a drone (and excellent flying skills), will cause an accident with loss of life. At that point you could see drones become illegal to fly without a license period, just like flying a full size aircraft.

 

[Enrico Schaefer]

The sentiment within the commercial drone community is swinging the other way. Rogue pilots often deserve to be reported or at least educated on requirements.. While part 107 pilots want the FAA to start authorizing airspace and granting waivers, few are arguing that the regulations should be abandon in favor of anything goes. The market for UAV services is damaged by fly-by-night operators. What the market needs most in order to mature is trust in drone operators. As long as the level of professionalism, skill and safety is low, the market will suffer. The amazing things that drones will do for us in the future won't start happening unless professionalism becomes the rule, rather than the exception.

We represent many pilots with lots of aviation experience. They are hard wired to do it right and encourage compliance. We also represent a lot of start ups with little aviation background who are committed to 'do it right.' These are companies which want to add UAV to their current customer service offerings and people looking to add part time drone photography as a side business. Customers are still trying to figure it all out. If customers see the market as 'some dude with a drone' it cheapens the skill required, the legitimate safety and FAA concerns and the potential of drones to do amazing things, When pilots commit to 'do it right' everyone wins.

Enrico Schaefer
UAV Attorney
www.dronelaw.pro

Free Part 107 Waiver and Airspace Training Videos. https://www.dronelaw.pro/part-107-waivers/

 

[Monte55]

I see most people only complain if it affects them personally. So if some are operating illegally and you want to turn them in, go ahead and waste your time. Better have proof and time to waste. I'm in the HVAC business and had to get certified many years ago. I know many without a business llicense or being certified dabble in the trade. I'm not going to waste my time being a rat. Yeah, it bothers me since I have to follow the rules, be certified, and have the proper equipment. I also don't turn in every driver that breaks the law. When I was getting my pilot certificate and had my plane stored at one small airport, I was surprised to find out the owner and an A&P that did the annuals on my plane didn't even have a pilot certificate but he flew the planes to check them out. Maybe he was legal in doing that but I doubt it. Don't let a dime hold up a dollar . Get on with your own life. Too many people out there breaking rules and always will be.

 

[Enrico Schaefer]

Educating customers, other pilots who may not be fully aware of the regulations and providing great customer service are still the best options, no doubt.


Enrico Schaefer
UAV Attorney
www.dronelaw.pro

Free Part 107 Waiver and Airspace Training Videos. https://www.dronelaw.pro/part-107-waivers/

 

[Tenly]

Humorous how up in arms many of you with 107/333 licenses about scabs taking your jobs away from you. I understand the issues and your frustrations - but as others have mentioned, it's a fact of life in almost any line of business.

I'll bet that many of you have turned blind eyes to the injustices in other industries over the years - but now that it's affecting you personally - you think that it is the moral duty of ANYBODY who has passing knowledge of illegal drone operators to report those operators and protect your chosen business!

Before you get out of control with this campaign, consider how many times you've reported a taxi driver for breaking a rule of the road - or your neighbours or relatives for building without a permit - or doing the work on their renovation themselves or with the help of an unlicensed friend, relative or "handyman" from Craig's List.

I think that very few of you have to right to be as outraged as you seem to be - and that many of you happily step across similar lines when it benefits you to do so.

The best thing you can do - as others have pointed out - is to play by the rules, advertise your compliance prominently, provide outstanding quality and service to your customers and accept that scabs are out there! If these scabs are as dangerous as you imply and produce shoddy work - that will become common knowledge as the industry grows and matures. It's still in its infancy. Perhaps, in some cases, the real fear is that the scabs will do the job every bit was good - or better than you would have/or could have done.

As the industry matures, the big, important and recurring jobs will always go to licensed, reputable operators and the Craigslist postings will disappear - or be used by small, one-off jobs that wouldn't even exist if the only option were full priced professionals - like a guy who is selling his house privately - or a local rock band that wants to make a video - people who would not be in the market for drone services if scabs didn't exist! And for a realtor who is lucky enough to have a brother in law with a drone - good on him if his relative is willing and able to help out. Odds are he would have listed the homes without aerial footage if he didn't have a relative willing to help. What some of you folks don't see is that these types of jobs don't take money out of your pocket - they actually expand the potential market for your services because you're now able to show that more and more realtors are using aerial videos to sell their homes and pitch them to "not be left behind"...!

I even stumbled across a website that is just starting up called vaudorne dot com - and they are claiming to be developing a directory that will match up those musicians and other tiny jobs with amateur pilots and hobbyists that are willing to work for FREE or almost for FREE!

I intend to license myself properly and start a drone photography business next summer - and I think their idea/approach is awesome! I'm even going to register with that website and will definitely consider doing a few of these "almost free" jobs in my free time to build my experience up for different types of work and to gain exposure. As long as I can charge enough to cover my insurance, I'm okay with donating my time for the right type of project. My accountant has advised that I can probably even write it off as an educational, training or marketing expense!

Bottom line - is don't lose too much sleep over these scabs that are currently flooding the market. Things will sort themselves out soon enough - and they will not steal any big, lucrative jobs from you. If your started your business up because you love flying - stick with it - and sign up to do a few of these free jobs if any arise in your city! If you got into this business because you thought it would be lucrative and you'd be able to make big money quickly - well, I'm sorry. That's not going to happen in this industry!


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[younggun84]

Sorry but you don't know what you don't know. I'm Part 107 and Part 61 certified (licensed private pilot). I can tell you that the Part 107 test has maybe 5 or 6 questions that have anything to do with drones specifically and none on your skills as a drone pilot. If you don't know FAA regulations and know how to read a pilot's sectional map you have a very good chance of breaking FAA airspace regulations. Flying skills have nothing to do with it. If you live in a big city with a major airport, more than likely at some point you'll be flying in controlled airspace which is a major violation with very stiff penalties if you haven't contacted ATC prior to your flight. Airport areas aren't the only problem. There are thousands of areas with restricted airspace and unless you have a sectional map and know how to read it you could be breaking the law without realizing it. There is no way I would ever fly with even the most skilled pilot if he or she was clueless about the regulations and protocols that are in place to keep flying safe. It's only a matter of time till some clueless yo ho with a drone (and excellent flying skills), will cause an accident with loss of life. At that point you could see drones become illegal to fly without a license period, just like flying a full size aircraft.

Then it seems you should be pushing for every drone pilot, commercial or not, to be certified. All sharing the same airspace after all.

But that's usually not the case, it seems commercial operators only get really worked up about uncertified commercial operators as if operating commercially is somehow more dangerous than as a hobby.


It's only a matter of time before anything happens, no matter how remote the possibility. Braking rules as a hobby pilot carries its own penalties, even requires notification to ATC is areas near airports. A certified pilot could just as easily ignore the rule as a hobbyist with a commercial side business and no certification could follow it.

IMO, it tends to come down to reducing competition in the field through cost. Something those who can afford to do happily support.


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[Monte55]

Humoroussimilar up in arms many of you with 107/333 licenses about scabs taking your jobs away from you. I understand the issues and your frustrations - but as others have mentioned, it's a fact of life in almost any line of business.

I'll bet that many of you have turned blind eyes to the injustices in other industries over the years - but now that it's affecting you personally - you think that it is the moral duty of ANYBODY who has passing knowledge of illegal drone operators to report those operators and protect your chosen business!

Before you get out of control with this campaign, consider how many times you've reported a taxi driver for breaking a rule of the road - or your neighbours or relatives for building without a permit - or doing the work on their renovation themselves or with the help of an unlicensed friend, relative or "handyman" from Craig's List.

I think that very few of you have to right to be as outraged as you seem to be - and that many of you happily step across similar lines when it benefits you to do so.

The best thing you can do - as others have pointed out - is to play by the rules, advertise your compliance prominently, provide outstanding quality and service to your customers and accept that scabs are out there! If these scabs are as dangerous as you imply and produce shoddy work - that will become common knowledge as the industry grows and matures. It's still in its infancy. Perhaps, in some cases, the real fear is that the scabs will do the job every bit was good - or better than you would have/or could have done.

As the industry matures, the big, important and recurring jobs will always go to licensed, reputable operators and the Craigslist postings will disappear - or be used by small, one-off jobs that wouldn't even exist if the only option were full priced professionals - like a guy who is selling his house privately - or a local rock band that wants to make a video - people who would not be in the market for drone services if scabs didn't exist! And for a realtor who is lucky enough to have a brother in law with a drone - good on him if his relative is willing and able to help out. Odds are he would have listed the homes without aerial footage if he didn't have a relative willing to help. What some of you folks don't see is that these types of jobs don't take money out of your pocket - they actually expand the potential market for your services because you're now able to show that more and more realtors are using aerial videos to sell their homes and pitch them to "not be left behind"...!

I even stumbled across a website that is just starting up called vaudorne dot com - and they are claiming to be developing a directory that will match up those musicians and other tiny jobs with amateur pilots and hobbyists that are willing to work for FREE or almost for FREE!

I intend to license myself properly and start a drone photography business next summer - and I think their idea/approach is awesome! I'm even going to register with that website and will definitely consider doing a few of these "almost free" jobs in my free time to build my experience up for different types of work and to gain exposure. As long as I can charge enough to cover my insurance, I'm okay with donating my time for the right type of project. My accountant has advised that I can probably even write it off as an educational, training or marketing expense!

Bottom line - is don't lose too much sleep over these scabs that are currently flooding the market. Things will sort themselves out soon enough - and they will not steal any big, lucrative jobs from you. If your started your business up because you love flying - stick with it - and sign up to do a few of these free jobs if any arise in your city! If you got into this business because you thought it would be lucrative and you'd be able to make big money quickly - well, I'm sorry. That's not going to happen in this industry!


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Oh, I thought you could never have flown a drone or similar, not know squat about photography, no clue on rules or the law....buy a camera equipped aerial vehicle and jump in with the big boys making a ton of money. . There's an old saying...If you want to run with the big dogs...stop peeing like a puppy .

 

[younggun84]

If you got into this business because you thought it would be lucrative and you'd be able to make big money quickly - well, I'm sorry. That's not going to happen in this industry!


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That very rarely happens in ANY industry, as just about any entrepreneur will attest to.

There's a reason only 1/12 businesses is successful.



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[Matchlock]

You're not alone in this problem.

Both my son and I are licenced private investigators, and if you think the drone industry is saturated with frauds and phonies you should take a look at the Private Investigator field. It's insane how many people will say they're private investigators when they aren't. People every day are duped out of their money because of these frauds and sometimes even cause clients harm because of their illegal actions.

All you can do is, when you find these frauds, get all the information you can from them and report them. There's not much else you can do until the government put some teeth into the legislation that controls the industry.
========

Not sure if this has been discussed. I went to a lot of time and trouble - plus $150 testing fee - to get my Part 107 Remote Pilot Certificate to be in the good graces of the FAA. I studied my butt off and made a 95% on the General Knowledge Test. Like many here, I intend to use Aerial video/photo services to supplement my income. That said, I did not anticipate the large number of rogue drone operators I would encounter who represent themselves as legitimate when in fact they are not, and lack the proper FAA certification (Section 333 Exemption or Part 107 Remote Pilot Certificate). I don't mind competition from other certified aerial businesses, but when these rogue operators begin to saturate the market and hi-jack potential opportunities, I take exception to it.

I am simply shocked at how many so called "Commercial Operators" are out there representing themselves as being in compliance with FAA regulations concerning the commercial operation of a drone (under 55 pounds). I would even go so far as to call it borderline epidemic. Most are listed on Craigslist and are not shy about stating that they are engaged in for-hire commercial drone activities, even to the extent of publishing their rates.

I quizzed 5 of them by email and simply asked each if they held either a Section 333 Exemption or a Part 107 Remote Pilot Certificate. Out of the five I contacted, none (zero) had the proper certification. It was amazing to see how they convinced themselves that they were certified. One operator sent copies of his drone registration. When I asked him again if he had a 333 or 107, he made a vague reference to the Section 333 process, stating "Those have been delayed and still processings nationwide thats why we hold our active certificate til petitions are granted." Not sure what he meant by "... active certificate".

Another operator justified his activities by stating, "If your asking do I have the right to properly do business. My answer is, yes. This is a side job for me. If your upset about my prices I have set, you can look up the laws in regarding that." I don't recall the FAA making any exceptions for "side jobs".

I guess I'm just frustrated that this many people are circumventing the regulations - either intentionally or by honest misinterpretations. What makes matters worse is that more often than not, potential clients are clueless about the regulations for commercial operators. This, together with the FAA being overwhelmed by new pilots - both hobbyists and commercial - just makes matters worse.

So I'm throwing this out there to see if any of the Certified commercial operators on this board are finding the same situation in your neck of the woods. I'm also interested in suggestions on how these rogue practices can be put in check.

Thanks in advance.....

 

[Jeff Miller]

Like I said, all it's going to take is some idiot without a license (and no knowledge of what restricted airspace is) to bring down a passenger carrying aircraft and things will change in a hurry. Think license fees of $5,000 and you can't fly a drone without one - period, plus a $10,000 fine and jail time if you are caught doing so. The proliferance of drones is getting out of control in a hurry and don't think the feds and the FAA aren't going to do something about it. The threat of terrorists using drones is too real to ignore.

 

[Tenly]

Like I said, all it's going to take is some idiot without a license (and no knowledge of what restricted airspace is) to bring down a passenger carrying aircraft and things will change in a hurry. Think license fees of $5,000 and you can't fly a drone without one - period, plus a $10,000 fine and jail time if you are caught doing so. The proliferance of drones is getting out of control in a hurry and don't think the feds and the FAA aren't going to do something about it. The threat of terrorists using drones is too real to ignore.

Yeah - that would be unfortunate - but in reality, it's unlikely to happen "by accident". Even without an incident, regulations are evolving, drones are getting smarter/safer and people are becoming more educated. On top of that, even if a drone and passenger plane were to find themselves in the same airspace - most of the collision angles that are possible would result in the destruction of the drone and very little damage to the passenger aircraft.

Not to say that it "couldn't" happen - just that with every month that goes by, it becomes less likely that it will happen accidentally. The terrorism angle is disturbing though. There are hundreds of ways terrorists could use drones to cause mayhem - but attempting to bring down a passenger airplane with one seems unlikely. It would be far more difficult than you think it would to hit a target moving 300 mph with an object capable of maneuvers at 40mph - in one of the few locations that would cause it to crash.

Do you suppose the terrorists would respect the more strict regulations that you speak of? No. I don't think your vision of the future - or anything remotely similar is likely.


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[kirk2579]

Like I said, all it's going to take is some idiot without a license (and no knowledge of what restricted airspace is) to bring down a passenger carrying aircraft and things will change in a hurry. Think license fees of $5,000 and you can't fly a drone without one - period, plus a $10,000 fine and jail time if you are caught doing so. The proliferance of drones is getting out of control in a hurry and don't think the feds and the FAA aren't going to do something about it. The threat of terrorists using drones is too real to ignore.

I understand what you are thinking but.

the FAA is/has been doing something about it/them .
The terror use of a uav isn't a licensing issue in any way
and is completely out the context of commercial license flyers vs not licensed.

While I too am working on my 107 I can assure you that many very skilled and knowledgeable operators will not do so, as they have no need or desire to become licensed...
doesn't mean they don't know about airports flight regs, flight patterns how to contact airports if circumstance's require, how to read a faa map, Notam etc etc

. I Know those things now, and I am not licensed and I am not unique by a long shot.

This doesn't AUTOMATICALLY make them a worse or more dangerous operator than you or I or any other 107 certified operator.

The 107 does tell a customer that you have basic skill level and knowledge and are vetted by the FAA.
sell that concept to customers, not the boogey man is coming if he doesn't have a certificate..

The 107 doesn't guarantee that a 107 certified pilot cant or wont have the same accident you describe the unlicensed guy is going to have....
.ask all the Licensed commercial truck drivers that keep rolling their rigs over outside my home area on I80 in Ohio. 7 times in last 5 weeks completely shut down the interstate for hours and hours over single truck accidents.( got good video of one).

good luck and have fun flying!
they were all certified commercial rig drivers yet they still had an ACCIDENT

 

[jephoto]

Who are you guys using for insurance? Like to see a few names of good companies/policies and rates.
The company I've got my cameras and business insurance with told me that they can add drone insurance- from a third party- but if I do my deductibles for EVERYTHING will jump up from $1,000 to $2,500.
So I want to find a good third party insurance myself & keep the policies separate.
Also I'm in Chicago -I assume who covers what is affected by region.

 

[Kristina Fowler]

Who are you guys using for insurance? Like to see a few names of good companies/policies and rates.
The company I've got my cameras and business insurance with told me that they can add drone insurance- from a third party- but if I do my deductibles for EVERYTHING will jump up from $1,000 to $2,500.
So I want to find a good third party insurance myself & keep the policies separate.
Also I'm in Chicago -I assume who covers what is affected by region.

I used Verifly for the first time this weekend ($10/hour for $1 million limit). Easy and simple.... client liked it.... but that 1 hour goes by very fast....Prepare for at least 2 doses - unless you work very fast.

 

[jephoto]

I love the concept- and want to use them. Makes more sense to insure for each paying job rather than $1,000 that I may or may not recover -yet.
But they aren't approved in Illinois yet. Working on it they tell me, but not quite yet.
Thanks for the response though.