Police Advised on Drone Rules as FAA Seeks Enforcement Help

[LuvMyTJ]

Lawyer up now. That is all bogus stuff that will be thrown out of a legal court. I would then ask for compensation for the non-use of your equipment and compensation for the lawyer fees. That cop has an authority issue.
I carry the FAA suggestions, AMA rules & membership card (You are an AMA member right?), photographers bill of rights, etc. in my case so I have everything with me should I encounter an uneducated LEO such as you did.

 

[SteveMann]

First, get a lawyer. Preferably one with aviation law experience. Go to dronelaw.com and ask for a referral.

I am not a lawyer, I just read a lot.
Unfortunately your experience is exactly the scenario that I warned about a few months ago - lurkers, read the earlier posts.
"Local law enforcement is in the best position to inquire and make initial requests to identify and preserve this form of evidence..." means confiscate to Deputy Barney. The little LLEO minds only read "preserve...evidence".
In my opinion the LEO has absolutely NO jurisdiction to enforce FAA rules, and especially no jurisdiction to interpret them.
Personally, I think you have a good case for false arrest. It is your choice how much noise you want to make of it.
Here's an interesting article to read - check the "About the Authors" http://www.americanbar.org/publications/blt/2014/10/01_perritt.html
Here is the full FAA LEO guide: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1421565/copter/faa/FAA_UAS-PO_LEA_Guidance.pdf
Here is the NOTAM that pilots are to regard as the law prohibiting flight over sporting events.
http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_4_3621.html

I read your post again, and I would be mad as hell. It appears that you were charged with violating FAA rules only. No local laws were violated (no state or local jurisdiction can make laws governing flight - none) and Barney has absolutely no jurisdiction to enforce FAA rules or confiscate your personal property, even if you were in fact violating FAR 91.13. If there was video on the camera that would show that you did not fly over crowds then the court must produce it for your defense.

The FAA LEO guide says "However, other law enforcement processes, such as arrest and detention or non-consensual searches almost always fall outside of the allowable methods to pursue administrative enforcement actions by the FAA unless they are truly a by-product of a state criminal investigation."

Heck, I would contact the FAA’s Law Enforcement Assistance Program Office at (202) 267-4641 and let them know the damage their misguided "advice" to LEO has caused.

Keep us posted.

 

[johan]

Yep. Time to lawyer up. Like it or not, you violated the TFR. I'm not saying that gave the officer the right to arrest or detain you. But you did knowingly and willfully violate a TFR and fly in a prohibited area. You need to find a good aviation lawyer who can use the local court system to slap down the LEO for the bogus arrest and property seizure. But you'll also likely need that same attorney for any FAA action that might result of you making a stink with the local yocals.

 

[jenzeee]

Thank you for the supportive feedback & helpful advises!

Update: I contacted a lawyer and signed up a membership of the AMA. This morning I had a call with an FAA inspector in Los Angeles. The FAA Attorneys will take a look at it. I hope to get my drone back soon.

I'll keep you posted, thanks again!

 

[maxwell smart]

I am not a lawyer ,but I play one on the internet. Your goods are gone,and the cops are playing with your stuff rite now. Sorry.

 

[GoodnNuff]

I think testing the unproven theory that launching from OUSTIDE as National Park and flying OVER the NP could land one in the same mess. Lurkers be aware.

 

[Mako79]

I'm from Aus, and the police here have other things to worry about.
But...
I think the LEO will judge you on your first 3 answers. If he thinks you're a **** with attitude then he will have some prejudice and think you wont comply then he will take further action. Just call it day and fly somewhere else.
However, if you are recklessly flying then you deserve to have your rotor confiscated.

 

[GCDrone]

Re: Police Advised on Drone Rules as FAA Seeks Enforcement H


While it meant exactly what I thought it meant as I am old (images of Uncle Remus come to mind), apparently is also has a slightly different meaning today, but still seems like it could be taken as a derogatory term.

Here is a PDF version of the Photographers Rights you can print out and carry with you - http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf

ummm.. copy right 2003 ?

 

[N017RW]

ummm.. copy right 2003 ?

Do you have a point or only looking at the date?

Here's similar verbage from 6/2014...
https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights-photographers

 

[GCDrone]

Do you have a point or only looking at the date?

Here's similar verbage from 6/2014...
https://www.aclu.org/know-your-rights-photographers

my point was that I would want to be as current as possible.
Thank you for providing the link to the 2014 info. Of course, that references photography and not flying drones.
I understand that the FAA is working through this.
I was hoping there was something like the card you posted but in a more recent version.

 

[kirk2579]

my experiences with the law regarding my phantom have only been positive

was on a service call and mentioned I had my phantom in the car, they could not get out the door fast enough to check it out, P2v2+

just flying and around 1:30 a local cruiser pulled up behind me, I parked it pointed at sign while I notified was carrying and CHL , he gave a thumbs up as said me too..can see him going away about 2:30 on road.

we chatted a bit and he said you are not supposed to be there, but no harm going on so have fun and take care.. P2 v1 with cgo-1 camera , no gimbal

 

[SilentAV8R]

Wow. Amazing that a cop would take it to that level. However, there are a couple of things working against you.

First, do you know if there was a TFR in effect for the time you were flying?

Second, almost everything in downtown Long Beach, from the 710 to Seal Beach all along the coast is inside the 5 NM ring of Class D airspace for Long Beach Airport. If you did not contact LGB tower to coordinate your flight the FAA would likely consider you flying in a reckless manner.

Section 336 of P.L. 112-95 requires notification when within 5 SM of an airport, so you were in violation of that as well.

In addition, one of the simplest things others can do to prevent such an issue in the first place is to carry a copy of the FAA guidelines, join and carry an AMA membership card, and follow the guidelines!

BTW, both the FAA guidelines and the AMA Safety Code prohibit flying over the unprotected property of others.

From the AMA Safety Code:

1. All pilots shall avoid flying directly over unprotected people, vessels, vehicles or structures and shall avoid endangerment of life and property of others.

All of the above aside, it boggles the mind that a LEO would take it upon himself to try to enforce anything. The FAA guidance to LEO clearly states that they have no authority to do anything other than document the incident. That would be how I would approach it since they have you on several other points. "They" being anyone that wants to find fault with how/where you were flying.

https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=81244

http://www.faa.gov/uas/regulations_policies/media/FAA_UAS-PO_LEA_Guidance.pdf

 

[ianwood]

There was most likely a TFR in place for the Grand Prix. It is a significant sporting event. I would recommend not posting any more information online until you have consulted your lawyer.

 

[jenzeee]

I'm from Aus, and the police here have other things to worry about.
But...
I think the LEO will judge you on your first 3 answers. If he thinks you're a **** with attitude then he will have some prejudice and think you wont comply then he will take further action. Just call it day and fly somewhere else.
However, if you are recklessly flying then you deserve to have your rotor confiscated.

I agree.
FYI: The officer did not ask me any question, just handcuffed.

 

[jenzeee]

my experiences with the law regarding my phantom have only been positive

was on a service call and mentioned I had my phantom in the car, they could not get out the door fast enough to check it out, P2v2+

just flying and around 1:30 a local cruiser pulled up behind me, I parked it pointed at sign while I notified was carrying and CHL , he gave a thumbs up as said me too..can see him going away about 2:30 on road.

we chatted a bit and he said you are not supposed to be there, but no harm going on so have fun and take care.. P2 v1 with cgo-1 camera , no gimbal

Well, good for you.
I never had problems with Police Officers because my drone, actually only positive encounters! But this incident was different, and it takes just one "bad" officer to screw you.

 

[N017RW]

I am a hobby pilot and had a very negative encounter with a Police Officer during the Indycar GP in Long Beach this weekend. I would like to know your opinion or advise.

I was flying my P2 (incl. FPV with GoPro cam) on a parking close to the race track. No people were on the parking lot, only cars. I flew it for about 8-9 min, mostly between 20-40 ft but never higher than 60ft. I always took distance to the "race track", meaning I was operating the drone only over the parking area. The footage proves it.

Well, after I landed my drone I got handcuffed and my drone incl. bag and all my equipment got confiscated. The officer told me I'll go to jail. Thus, I was kept in a police vehicle for almost an hour, before he then finally released me. I received a ticket with court order showing the following violations:

• 14 C.F.R. 91.13: "Unsafe drone" (..that's what he wrote on the ticket)
• FDC 43621: "Operate drone in violation of flight restriction". (..his text)

Note: I received no document or proof that he confiscated my drone. Also, I was refused to take a picture of my drone and the inside of my bag anymore. He said it is evidence and maybe get it back after the court date, which will be in about 3 months.

My questions:

Is it lawful to confiscate my drone and bag (for this reason)?

What did I do wrong?

• 14 C.F.R. 91.13 (by FAA) actually stand for "careless and reckless operation". It states "no person may operate an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another." - I don't know where I had been careless or reckless to endanger the life or property of others. Theoretically, property damages can happen anywhere. Please correct me know if I am wrong.
• FDC 43621 (attachment 1 of the FAA's “Law Enforcement Guidance for suspected unauthorized UAS operations”) is a NOTAM (Notice to Airman) about flight restrictions of "select sport events". In short: All aircraft operations are prohibited of "any stadium having a seating capacity of 30'000 or more people". This NOTAM also applies to Indy Car. - The Long Beach GP is for sure not a stadium (def.: a sports area with tiers of seats for spectators), it is an street circuit in a city. Anyways, no information available about the seating capacity.

What advise would you give to me?


Thanks for your feedback.
-J.

jenzee,

Is this you?

 

[GoodnNuff]

jenzee,

Is this you?

Is that drone video of an arrested drone pilot??

 

[jenzeee]

Wow. Amazing that a cop would take it to that level. However, there are a couple of things working against you.

First, do you know if there was a TFR in effect for the time you were flying?

Second, almost everything in downtown Long Beach, from the 710 to Seal Beach all along the coast is inside the 5 NM ring of Class D airspace for Long Beach Airport. If you did not contact LGB tower to coordinate your flight the FAA would likely consider you flying in a reckless manner.

Section 336 of P.L. 112-95 requires notification when within 5 SM of an airport, so you were in violation of that as well.



BTW, both the FAA guidelines and the AMA Safety Code prohibit flying over the unprotected property of others.

From the AMA Safety Code:



All of the above aside, it boggles the mind that a LEO would take it upon himself to try to enforce anything. The FAA guidance to LEO clearly states that they have no authority to do anything other than document the incident. That would be how I would approach it since they have you on several other points. "They" being anyone that wants to find fault with how/where you were flying.

https://www.faa.gov/news/updates/?newsId=81244

http://www.faa.gov/uas/regulations_policies/media/FAA_UAS-PO_LEA_Guidance.pdf

There was no information at all about an TFR (Temporary Flight Restriction). There is an attachment in an FAA document called “Law Enforcement Guidance for suspected unauthorized UAS operations”. This attachment it refers to FDC 4/3621 which basically states "all aircraft operations... including... unmanned aircraft and remote controlled aircraft... are prohibited... of any stadium having a seating capacity of 30'000 people or more."
The Long Beach Grand Prix is obviously not held in a stadium (def. sports arena with tiers of seatings for spectator), it is an open "City Street Circuit" with many accessible public sports to view the race track. AFAIK the main purpose of the "stadium section" is to protect crowds of people. At my location there were no bleachers or "seating capacities" far and wide, not even visible.

The Long Beach Airport is about 5-6 miles away from the city center. Besides I altitude only up to max. 60ft (= 20m). According to the DJI website there is not a No-Flight zone such of category A or B. Also my Phantom (latest FW 3.12) did not show any red light flashing sequence which usually indicate No-Flight zones.

 

[N017RW]

Is that drone video of an arrested drone pilot??

It would seem so but for the lack of sound created by a drone.

"Selfie-stick"???

 

[N017RW]

There was no information at all about an TFR (Temporary Flight Restriction). There is an attachment in an FAA document called “Law Enforcement Guidance for suspected unauthorized UAS operations”. This attachment it refers to FDC 4/3621 which basically states "all aircraft operations... including... unmanned aircraft and remote controlled aircraft... are prohibited... of any stadium having a seating capacity of 30'000 people or more."
The Long Beach Grand Prix is obviously not held in a stadium (def. sports arena with tiers of seatings for spectator), it is an open "City Street Circuit" with many accessible public sports to view the race track. AFAIK the main purpose of the "stadium section" is to protect crowds of people. At my location there were no bleachers or "seating capacities" far and wide, not even visible.

The Long Beach Airport is about 5-6 miles away from the city center. Besides I altitude only up to max. 60ft (= 20m). According to the DJI website there is not a No-Flight zone such of category A or B. Also my Phantom (latest FW 3.12) did not show any red light flashing sequence which usually indicate No-Flight zones.

You seem to have conveniently cut your 4/3621 quotation short of the mention regarding Indy Car sporting events.

It's mentioned explicitly:
"THIS NOTAM ALSO APPLIES TO NASCAR SPRINT CUP, INDY CAR, AND CHAMP SERIES RACES EXCLUDING QUALIFYING AND PRE-RACE EVENTS."

Here's your NOTAM:

http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_4_3621.html