Police Advised on Drone Rules as FAA Seeks Enforcement Help

GoodnNuff · Apr 23, 2015

N017RW said:
It would seem so but for the lack of sound created by a drone.

"Selfie-stick"???

Oh yeah, probably a "selfie stick" - forgot about those.

jenzeee · Apr 23, 2015

N017RW said:
You seem to have conveniently cut your 4/3621 quotation short of the mention regarding Indy Car sporting events. It's mentioned explicitly.

Here's your NOTAM:

http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_4_3621.html

I didn't cut anything lol, I just stated what it "basically" means.

This NOTAM ("All aircraft operations... are prohibited... of any STADIUM having a SEATING CAPACITY OF 30'000 PEOPLE.") also applies to... Indy Car.

My claim is that a "City Street Circuit" is not a stadium, not by definitions nor infrastructure. The F1 Monica GP is also not considered to be a stadium.

Full text:
PURSUANT TO 14 CFR SECTION 99.7, SPECIAL SECURITY INSTRUCTIONS, COMMENCING ONE HOUR BEFORE THE SCHEDULED TIME OF THE EVENT UNTIL ONE HOUR AFTER THE END OF THE EVENT. ALL AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS; INCLUDING PARACHUTE JUMPING, UNMANNED AIRCRAFT AND REMOTE CONTROLLED AIRCRAFT, ARE PROHIBITED WITHIN A 3 NMR UP TO AND INCLUDING 3000 FT AGL OF ANY STADIUM HAVING A SEATING CAPACITY OF 30,000 OR MORE PEOPLE WHERE EITHER A REGULAR OR POST SEASON MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL, NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE, OR NCAA DIVISION ONE FOOTBALL GAME IS OCCURRING. THIS NOTAM ALSO APPLIES TO NASCAR SPRINT CUP, INDY CAR, AND CHAMP SERIES RACES EXCLUDING QUALIFYING AND PRE-RACE EVENTS. FLIGHTS CONDUCTED FOR OPERATIONAL PURPOSES OF ANY EVENT, STADIUM OR VENUE AND BROADCAST COVERAGE FOR THE BROADCAST RIGHTS HOLDER ARE AUTHORIZED WITH AN APPROVED AIRSPACE WAIVER.

N017RW · Apr 23, 2015

You're trying to convince yourself or others that your in a 'grey area' and want sympathy or something.
You go on to cite examples of how you feel this event was not covered by the NOTAM when it clearly is.

Being deceptive is not going to work out in the long run.

Is that you in the video, or not?

N017RW · Apr 23, 2015

Nice to go back and edit the NOTAM into the post.

Well now that that your argument is clear:

"My claim is that a "City Street Circuit" is not a stadium, not by definitions nor infrastructure. The F1 Monica GP is also not considered to be a stadium."

...good luck with that.

jenzeee · Apr 23, 2015

N017RW said:
You're trying to convince yourself or others that your in a 'grey area' and want sympathy or something.
You go on to cite examples of how you feel this event was not covered by the NOTAM when it clearly is.

Being deceptive is not going to work out in the long run.

Is that you in the video, or not?

I accept your opinion, even if it is different. no problem.
(I am not looking for sympathy, just opinions and advise.)

kirk2579 · Apr 23, 2015

N017RW said:
You're trying to convince yourself or others that your in a 'grey area' and want sympathy or something.
You go on to cite examples of how you feel this event was not covered by the NOTAM when it clearly is.

Being deceptive is not going to work out in the long run.

Is that you in the video, or not?

I do have agree with you, NOTAM pretty much is saying stay away from events with mass groups of folks.

Also if that was area I most likely would not have flown , race or no race. But that's me!

N017RW · Apr 23, 2015

Is it a lack of responsibility or a sense of entitlement on your part?

You violated the NOTAM.

Plead ignorance and ask for forgiveness.

jenzeee · Apr 23, 2015

kirk2579 said:
I do have agree with you, NOTAM pretty much is saying stay away from events with mass groups of folks.

Also if that was area I most likely would not have flown , race or no race. But that's me!

Thanks for the feedback.

ianwood · Apr 23, 2015

DJI no fly zones are chosen by DJI not the FAA. It is up to you to abide by FAA rules including TFRs.

Even without knowing the rules, you must have had some inclination that what you were doing was wrong. The Long Beach Grand Prix is not exactly a small event. You're illicitly capturing video of a paid event. You're creating a distraction for paid attendees. You're attempting to gain benefit without a ticket. And most of all, you're creating a potential security / safety issue.

SilentAV8R · Apr 23, 2015

And once again, regardless of your altitude, you were absolutely inside the Class D airspace for Long Beach airport and well within the radius required for notification of the airport as defined in Section 336. ALL of downtown Long Beach is inside the Class D airspace that extends to the surface. In addition, most people would interpret the location you were flying as being inconsistent with the AMA's requirement not to overfly people, buildings, vehicles, etc. The FAA has restated this in their interpretation of Section 336 as well.

Still and all, the only thing I think the LEO has is a disturbing the peace charge. They simply cannot do anything with regard to violation of FAA regs, etc. But they can absolutely nab you for flying where it is prohibited (City controls the surface) or if you were creating a distraction.

jenzeee · Apr 23, 2015

Some points have been mentioned I wasn't aware of. Probably, I made mistake(s).
It's important to know for the future even though I have no drone anymore.

Thanks for the feedback.

J.James · Apr 23, 2015

IF that cop did not give you any sort of documentation that your phantom was taken in to custody you can kiss that good bye cause if there is no evidence or any other receipt then it will never be found even if he did happen to not take it home and give it to one of his kids. And also being they do not and will not be able to even produce your phantom as evidence if it was not entered in to evidence officially then tell them to just go stuff them selves and fight the charges. and it probably would not hurt to press offical charges on the cop for robbery and thept. actually its armed robbery being I'm sure he had his side arm on him and in view of you when he was robbing your stuff and also while he was illegally searching your bag with out your consent. Tho not much you can do for false arrest considering its not usually what some one thinks it is and just being arrested for some thing you are innocent of does not make for false arrest under color of law. and its only false arrest if there is no law that the cop is claiming you are under arrest for breaking. Then that would be false arrest even if you did do what they said you did but not any law on the books for it.

But being they are not going to have much evidence considering the crook stole your drone and just went threw the motions of giving you some sort of citation. Get lawer if you cant fight it your self and stick to your guns that you broke no law that you are aware of and if they thing you did then you tell the to put up or shut up and prove you did and prove it beyond all reasonable doubt. as its there burden to not only prove you broke the law but they also must prove you knew you were in violation of the law also. And its not YOUR burdon to prove you didn'tdo any thing wrong. So what ever you do dont help them screw you. and most of the time even when some one did break the law. and dont take any plea bargons or reduced charges being that them even offering any reduced charge is usually a good hand tip that even they know they dont have squat as far as a case goes if you dont agree to letting them screw you over and plead guilty to some thing you didn't do.

GoodnNuff · Apr 23, 2015

Ignorantia juris non excusat or "ignorance of the law excuses no one" is a legal principle holding that a person who is unaware of a law may not escape liability for violating that law merely because he or she was unaware of its content. Otherwise every first time criminal would claim ignorance and walk free. Nor can you charge an armed LEO with "armed robbery" because he confiscated evidence.

I'm really sorry that you lost your drone, and I do hope you get it back. I am quite sure you will. It is pretty apparent in retrospect that you did violate the NOTAM, but I am not convinced you did so knowingly.

johan · Apr 23, 2015

jenzeee said:
I didn't cut anything lol, I just stated what it "basically" means.

This NOTAM ("All aircraft operations... are prohibited... of any STADIUM having a SEATING CAPACITY OF 30'000 PEOPLE.") also applies to... Indy Car.

My claim is that a "City Street Circuit" is not a stadium, not by definitions nor infrastructure. The F1 Monica GP is also not considered to be a stadium.

Full text:
PURSUANT TO 14 CFR SECTION 99.7, SPECIAL SECURITY INSTRUCTIONS, COMMENCING ONE HOUR BEFORE THE SCHEDULED TIME OF THE EVENT UNTIL ONE HOUR AFTER THE END OF THE EVENT. ALL AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS; INCLUDING PARACHUTE JUMPING, UNMANNED AIRCRAFT AND REMOTE CONTROLLED AIRCRAFT, ARE PROHIBITED WITHIN A 3 NMR UP TO AND INCLUDING 3000 FT AGL OF ANY STADIUM HAVING A SEATING CAPACITY OF 30,000 OR MORE PEOPLE WHERE EITHER A REGULAR OR POST SEASON MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL, NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE, OR NCAA DIVISION ONE FOOTBALL GAME IS OCCURRING. THIS NOTAM ALSO APPLIES TO NASCAR SPRINT CUP, INDY CAR, AND CHAMP SERIES RACES EXCLUDING QUALIFYING AND PRE-RACE EVENTS. FLIGHTS CONDUCTED FOR OPERATIONAL PURPOSES OF ANY EVENT, STADIUM OR VENUE AND BROADCAST COVERAGE FOR THE BROADCAST RIGHTS HOLDER ARE AUTHORIZED WITH AN APPROVED AIRSPACE WAIVER.

Yeah, your interpretation is incorrect. Being able to read and correctly understand FAA speak is an acquired skill. Lets parse it out a little. First this with important bits that you've already taken the time to underline:

ALL AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS; INCLUDING PARACHUTE JUMPING, UNMANNED AIRCRAFT AND REMOTE CONTROLLED AIRCRAFT, ARE PROHIBITED WITHIN A 3 NMR UP TO AND INCLUDING 3000 FT AGL OF ANY STADIUM HAVING A SEATING CAPACITY OF 30,000 OR MORE PEOPLE WHERE EITHER A REGULAR OR POST SEASON MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL, NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE, OR NCAA DIVISION ONE FOOTBALL GAME IS OCCURRING

This bit is pretty straight forward. If you build yourself a stadium that can hold more than 29,999 people in it, AND you put on a major league baseball game in it or an NFL game or an NCAA game, then no one can fly their drone within 3nm of it during that game and also for hour before and one hour after the game. And BTW, that 3nm ring goes from the surface to 3000' agl. So flying your drone 2" off the ground makes you just as in violation as 2000'

Wanna put on a Star Trek convention to end all Star Trek conventions in that stadium? You can fly your drones all over that *****. But try that **** the next day during the NFL game and the man will be on you like white on rice. And in the same vein, want to put on an NFL event in a in a venue that only holds 29,998 people? Bring on the drones the notam wouldn't apply.

Ok moving forward, next bit.

THIS NOTAM ALSO APPLIES TO NASCAR SPRINT CUP, INDY CAR, AND CHAMP SERIES RACES EXCLUDING QUALIFYING AND PRE-RACE EVENTS.

Ok there is nothing in this statement that denotes the size or type of venue to which it applies. That doesn't mean you fall back to the previously mentioned type of venue, it means this bit applies to ALL venues where these events take place. The FAA words these things VERY carefully. So when it says this notam also applies to... they're not saying oh yeah, we forgot to mention that you need to add these other types of events to the stadium bit we just talked about earlier. Instead what they're saying is in addition to the criteria we specified above, this notam also applies to this other, completely independent criteria. And since no venue size or type is mentioned, all venues apply.

claws · Apr 24, 2015

Go to court and offer the judge a shot.

Case closed, new flying buddy!

Jermz · May 2, 2015

ianwood said:
There was most likely a TFR in place for the Grand Prix. It is a significant sporting event. I would recommend not posting any more information online until you have consulted your lawyer.

Definitely this. Don't say anything else about it on the Internet.

DCB · Feb 3, 2016

This is all good information. I think it's a great idea to carry all the important information with us while flying. To help all us new flyers out could someone please post a link to or attachment of the pertinent documentation that we should all be carrying besides the registration number:

Sounds like we should have:
FAA suggestions
AMA rules & membership card
photographers bill of rights

Can someone point us new folks to where these are located so we can download and be smart on all this.

I'm just trying to get smart on all this and be able to speak correctly if approached.

Thanks

Bob Mador · Feb 21, 2016

DCB said:
This is all good information. I think it's a great idea to carry all the important information with us while flying. To help all us new flyers out could someone please post a link to or attachment of the pertinent documentation that we should all be carrying besides the registration number:

Sounds like we should have:
FAA suggestions
AMA rules & membership card
photographers bill of rights

Can someone point us new folks to where these are located so we can download and be smart on all this.

I'm just trying to get smart on all this and be able to speak correctly if approached.

Thanks

I too am new at this, but after some research using Google, I have found these links that may answer your request:

FAA suggestions (I believe the actual title should be FAA Advisory, but being new I could be wrong): http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/540-c.pdf

AMA rules & membership: Academy of Model Aeronautics

Photographers Bill of Rights:
http://www.krages.com/ThePhotographersRight.pdf
Know Your Rights: Photographers

m0j0 · Feb 22, 2016

LuvMyTJ said:
Re: Police Advised on Drone Rules as FAA Seeks Enforcement H

They cannot legally take it if you are not breaking laws. Will that prevent them from taking it? Probably not as many do what they want and let the courts hash it out later but legally they cannot take it. Personally I am not sure that LEO's are going to spend much time enforcing something they have no real enforcement rules to govern them. I'm sure they don't want to hold the FCC's hand on this one.

Coming from a fed...and someone that works with local LEO's all the time.. I agree with your comments.