Phantom 2 Catastrophic Failure after Firmware 3.06

To OP: Sorry to hear of your loss. By your description it almost sounds like VRS. Theonly way to recover from VRS is to move in any direction, but giving more throttle when it's in VRS just amplifies the effect. Just a thought.

Since you were involved with the beta testing, I'm sure Andy (director of sales) will make your situation right.
 
EMCSQUAR said:
To OP: Sorry to hear of your loss. By your description it almost sounds like VRS. Theonly way to recover from VRS is to move in any direction, but giving more throttle when it's in VRS just amplifies the effect. Just a thought.

Since you were involved with the beta testing, I'm sure Andy (director of sales) will make your situation right.

I think he knows what VRS is. If you read around there are some instances where the phantom goes into some sort of auto decent and throttle increase doesn't even spool the rotors
 
I got so much flak for my criticism of DJI's customer service, and quality control during the compass declination ordeal. This is a prime example why.
 
May not be related but test flew after 3:06 update and had trouble gaining altitude.

Seems the new blades were packed too tight and warped, at eye level I could see they were not tracking.

Went back to a set I had been filming with and flew great again.
 
d4ddyo said:
John Shaw said:
Seem very inconsistent
I have loaded 3.06 and run it through a number of tests.
GPS, IOC off run to confirm no TBE or JHook
Checked CL for no drift error
Checked HL
Check battery warning RTH
Yaw Rate tests
using a thumb as the limiter
Yaw Rate tests using the app accelerometer feature
And I have experience no problems. It feels just like it did before 3.06 except for the benefits of the improvements.
I wonder what is causing the difference?

John... Did you do anything different like disable RTH?

No, just a straight forward load and I definitely didn't disable RTH as I even tested it and it works as seen in one of my videos.
 
EMCSQUAR said:
To OP: Sorry to hear of your loss. By your description it almost sounds like VRS. Theonly way to recover from VRS is to move in any direction, but giving more throttle when it's in VRS just amplifies the effect. Just a thought.

Since you were involved with the beta testing, I'm sure Andy (director of sales) will make your situation right.

Thanks for the condolences. I don't think it was a case of VRS. I had Altitude and it was stable in the hover. Anything is possible though.
Who is Andy and how would i contact him?
 
Xrover said:
Thanks for the condolences. I don't think it was a case of VRS. I had Altitude and it was stable in the hover. Anything is possible though.
Who is Andy and how would i contact him?

No, definitely doesn't sound like VRS to me either based on your description of the incident. Difficult to rule out the battery as being the issue though as there have been numerous confirmed cases of bad cells, and an auto landing triggered by a low voltage reading certainly doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility. We may never know for sure since the model was unrecoverable. On the other hand, If this problem were tied to the recent upgrade, we will know about it soon enough as this wouldn't be an isolated incident. Either way, it doesn't sound like there was much you could have done to prevent this and I feel badly for your loss.
 
Xrover, major condolences on your loss. I trust that a veteran pilot like you knows when the system has gone bad.

DJI, you should step up big time here and overnight Xrover a replacement rig. You have received six or seven figures worth of free testing by the beta testers on a major flaw in your system. Xrover was one of the guys who put in some quality hours testing when you apparently didn't/wouldn't/couldn't. So step up.

Kelly
 
If you're going to volunteer to be a guinea pig for DJI, you should at least DVR and video/helmetcam all the flights as best you can to document any problems. If anything happens, you actually have something to back you up.

Otherwise, everyone can just say that they had a flyaway into the ocean and keep their fingers crossed that they get something from DJI/dealer.

If you were doing this as a job, I presume that you had it insured and a backup ready, hopefully.
 
witold said:
If you're going to volunteer to be a guinea pig for DJI, you should at least DVR and video/helmetcam all the flights as best you can to document any problems. If anything happens, you actually have something to back you up.

Otherwise, everyone can just say that they had a flyaway into the ocean and keep their fingers crossed that they get something from DJI/dealer.

If you were doing this as a job, I presume that you had it insured and a backup ready, hopefully.

Give Xhover some slack here, his effort (amongst others) is the reason why we been have v3.06 that fixes the j hook issue that cripples the p2 in anywhere with high magnetic declination. I would trust he knows how to fly his p2 and know when things truly go wrong.
 
No big deal during beta Testing. I didn't fly it over water and flew it where It wouldn't do to much damage if there was a failure. The Beta's flew pretty good.

Sooo, when 3.06 came out, I assumed it was as stable as the Beta. Testing was over and 3.06 was live. I test flew 3.06 as part of my personal flight testing procedures I would do after an update. I pretty much always fly LOS and trying out 3.06 I kept it within 200 yards of me and under 150 feet altitude. The only thing i noticed during my personal testing was it needed a bit more throttle to get off the ground. In the back of my mind i noticed it but it didn't raise a Red Flag. Even trying to pop up from a hover required a bit more throttle then before. Still didn't raise a Red Flag. I figured it was due to my ******* flying at 1:00 in the afternoon in 102 degree temps. I was happy Beta Testing was over and we could all fly the new firmware.

Yes, the Job I was shooting had Production Insurance. It's going to be a difficult needle to thread. Mainly for Political reasons and maintaining a future relationship with them. Any Loss or Damage claim on a Small Production Companies Insurance will really hurt them on their future projects, which I would want to be the person they think of for shooting Aerials.

I am looking into something that i can use on the ground to record the FPV/iosd output. A "Black Box" that is on the ground, not on the Copter.

I really doubt DJI would do anything in this case. I have no proof to send them and no faith in their Customer Support.
It's a pretty messed up situation.

Something changed from 3.05 Beta to 3.06 having an effect on the Power/ Battery systems. I'm not an engineer but after yesterday's sudden failure, I saw that Red Flag pop up.
 
8mins in the air and was still at 78%? that doesnt make much sense... Also what was your voltage when it started to descend? Did you use the old default gains or the new ones?
 
xtonex said:
8mins in the air and was still at 78%? that doesnt make much sense... Also what was your voltage when it started to descend? Did you use the old default gains or the new ones?

What would the gains have to do with it?
 
d4ddyo said:
xtonex said:
8mins in the air and was still at 78%? that doesnt make much sense... Also what was your voltage when it started to descend? Did you use the old default gains or the new ones?

What would the gains have to do with it?

Might explain him not being able to throttle out of the descend. but im assuming its a bad battery at this point
 
Kelso Kubat said:
all I'm saying...
i should have stayed on 3.02
im not budging off 3.04
and leave me alone 3.06

i know. its ridiculous. All i'm saying is DJI sucks.
 
Some interesting info here about how 2.4GHz can be affected over a reflective surface such as water.
When we fly our model airplane on 2.4GHz, the area around us is known as the Fresnel zone. Since we have to use an omnidirectional antenna system, the electromagnetic waves will scatter and diffract from objects and from the terrain around us. When the diffracted wave reaches the receiver antenna, it is slightly lags behind the signal which traveled to the receiver antenna in a straight line that creates interference due to the phase canceling effect.

The Fresnel effect also deals with the behavior of electromagnetic waves over a water surface. As mentioned before, the 2.4GHz radiation behaves more like visible light, so we have to think of reflections and shadows. Flying a 2.4GHz radio control model over a reflective surface like water, snow, ice or wet terrain negatively affects the radio link. Occasionally a 3D aerobatic model plunges into water while hovering. When the rudder is near the water surface, the prop wash creates a chaotic wave pattern which generates a myriad of false-signals.

The Fresnel effect and the described interference on the 2.4GHz band work pretty well. We successfully tested this at different locations. Unfortunately, the "unbreakable Tx-Rx link” broke when our model was over 0.2 miles away at 45 degree angle. Despite the fact that a 90 decibel signal loss over a thousand feet (0.2 miles) is rather significant, we should have had control at this distance. There are too many factors that can determine the overall range on 2.4GHz.

2.4GHz receivers are not immune to ignition and electrical noise as advertised. Occasional arc from high tension insulators could break the bind.
Source: http://www.pyramidmodels.com/shop/artic ... ve_horvath

If unobstructed, radio waves will travel in a straight line from the transmitter to the receiver. But if there are reflective surfaces along the path, such as bodies of water or smooth terrain, the radio waves reflecting off those surfaces may arrive either out of phase or in phase with the signals that travel directly to the receiver. Waves that reflect off of surfaces within an even Fresnel zone are out of phase with the direct-path wave and reduce the power of the received signal. Waves that reflect off of surfaces within an odd Fresnel zone are in phase with the direct-path wave and can enhance the power of the received signal. Sometimes this results in the counter-intuitive finding that reducing the height of an antenna increases the signal-to-noise ratio.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresnel_zone
 
xtonex said:
8mins in the air and was still at 78%? that doesnt make much sense... Also what was your voltage when it started to descend? Did you use the old default gains or the new ones?

8Mins was what I was guessing from the time I put the battery in and took off. That was a rough guess.
78% Battery was a definite.. As it started to descend I immediately checked the numbers. Battery Level was 78%, GPS was 12 Sats. but battery voltage is difficult to read on a FPV screen with iosd mini and the Gopro recording. The Red Recording indicator get's overlaid right over the Battery Voltage reading.

I was using the Default 3.06 Gains. Whenever I have a Firmware Update I click Default in the Gains Tab.
 
Jaybee said:
Some interesting info here about how 2.4GHz can be affected over a reflective surface such as water.
When we fly our model airplane on 2.4GHz, the area around us is known as the Fresnel zone. Since we have to use an omnidirectional antenna system, the electromagnetic waves will scatter and diffract from objects and from the terrain around us. When the diffracted wave reaches the receiver antenna, it is slightly lags behind the signal which traveled to the receiver antenna in a straight line that creates interference due to the phase canceling effect.

The Fresnel effect also deals with the behavior of electromagnetic waves over a water surface. As mentioned before, the 2.4GHz radiation behaves more like visible light, so we have to think of reflections and shadows. Flying a 2.4GHz radio control model over a reflective surface like water, snow, ice or wet terrain negatively affects the radio link. Occasionally a 3D aerobatic model plunges into water while hovering. When the rudder is near the water surface, the prop wash creates a chaotic wave pattern which generates a myriad of false-signals.

The Fresnel effect and the described interference on the 2.4GHz band work pretty well. We successfully tested this at different locations. Unfortunately, the "unbreakable Tx-Rx link” broke when our model was over 0.2 miles away at 45 degree angle. Despite the fact that a 90 decibel signal loss over a thousand feet (0.2 miles) is rather significant, we should have had control at this distance. There are too many factors that can determine the overall range on 2.4GHz.

2.4GHz receivers are not immune to ignition and electrical noise as advertised. Occasional arc from high tension insulators could break the bind.
Source: http://www.pyramidmodels.com/shop/artic ... ve_horvath

If unobstructed, radio waves will travel in a straight line from the transmitter to the receiver. But if there are reflective surfaces along the path, such as bodies of water or smooth terrain, the radio waves reflecting off those surfaces may arrive either out of phase or in phase with the signals that travel directly to the receiver. Waves that reflect off of surfaces within an even Fresnel zone are out of phase with the direct-path wave and reduce the power of the received signal. Waves that reflect off of surfaces within an odd Fresnel zone are in phase with the direct-path wave and can enhance the power of the received signal. Sometimes this results in the counter-intuitive finding that reducing the height of an antenna increases the signal-to-noise ratio.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fresnel_zone

Interesting and confusing. Thanks for taking the time to attach it.. I noticed the P2 start losing altitude at approx. 15-20 feet up. At first it did respond to throttle but very very little response. It kind of went in stages from then on up until it was about 3 feet off the water when it dropped. I forgot to mention earlier that when I realized that there was a problem, probably around 10 feet. I began to turn towards Home to bring it back.
 
Briefly off topic but this is a prime example of why I want my iosd to show me my flight measurements in Imperial and not Metric.

For me, the only reason to have an OSD is to have your pertinent flight data in front of you. I have flown aircraft and have been a Yacht Captain on 60'-100' Vessels. Without your instruments and Nav info in front of you so you can routinely scan them and know what is going on, you are basically running blind.
Pretty much all instruments and Nav equip show imperial units and the option is there to show Metric.

My Brain was trained in Imperial units of measurement. When the **** hits the fan. Like it did. The last thing I need is to be converting Meters to Feet so I can visualize what is going on.I know what 10 feet or 15 feet looks like. I know what mph looks/feels like.

Sorry for the off topic rant but it might have given me a quicker awareness of what was happening.
 

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