I worked at natural bridges national monument in Utah and have done extensive time in many parks out there. Nobody will even know if you fly sensibly! Don't circle the visiter center! We are talking VAST areas where rules are sometimes ummm, broken by those who enforce them? Half the rangers flew drones--they just know where to "get lost". It's not like leaving footprints in the cryptogammic soil or carving your name in delicate arch. Flying a drone AWAY from people is lower impact than walking. If you fly a drone in the forest and it has no SD card---did it actually fly?
Flying in UT State Parks & Bonneville Salt Flats
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Yes, a "no drones in Death Valley" law is like a "no mosquitos in the Superdome" law. You've got two people with flyswatters to enforce it! Charles Manson lived there for two years without getting caught and he was dropping acid and blowing stuff up.
Thanks Dan for pointing out my error that Death Valley is actually in California, not Nevada. I went back and corrected
my mixup.
I had never been in Death Valley National Park and I was blown away regarding the beauty as well as the stark, arid landscape.
I just made two flights, making sure I was far away from other people, which was not hard to do at all. Getting up before 0500 hours, meant I basically had the Park to myself.
Joshua Tree National Park was another incredible place, actually quite magical. One must be willing to drive off-road and or putting on your drone hard shell or soft pack and hiking two or three miles out into the desert. I carry six batteries in my pack for my P3Pro.
When I decide to purchase a Phantom 4 Pro, I think buying just three batteries should be enough.
I fear that it may be late March before I am able to head back west.
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my mixup.
I had never been in Death Valley National Park and I was blown away regarding the beauty as well as the stark, arid landscape.
I just made two flights, making sure I was far away from other people, which was not hard to do at all. Getting up before 0500 hours, meant I basically had the Park to myself.
Joshua Tree National Park was another incredible place, actually quite magical. One must be willing to drive off-road and or putting on your drone hard shell or soft pack and hiking two or three miles out into the desert. I carry six batteries in my pack for my P3Pro.
When I decide to purchase a Phantom 4 Pro, I think buying just three batteries should be enough.
I fear that it may be late March before I am able to head back west.
Sent from my iPhone using PhantomPilots
Three out of the four places you mentioned are US National Parks. You are asking what people's experiences are when flying in National Parks? I'm betting not good ones.
This one should be obvious... there is no drone flying in US National Parks. No question about that.
tcope is correct, but there are still countless, wide open places in the Canyon Lands, Escalante wilderness Areas, as well as BLM lands.
If you drive on highways 89, 12 and 261 in SW Utah, you will be very happy that you did.
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If you drive on highways 89, 12 and 261 in SW Utah, you will be very happy that you did.
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You still don't seem to understand the definitions. A National Forest cannot be a Wilderness. It can have a Wilderness IN it, but it cannot BE a Wilderness... because it's a National Forest and not a Wilderness.
I already provided the black/white regulation that prevents drone flying in ANY Wilderness. There are no motorized anythings allowed in ANY Wilderness.
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I wish I could go with you when you do this--I love that area, too, and would love to fly my P4 there....
Seriously?
First, you are completely misstating what you yourself have linked to. The only mention was "motorized vehicles". You then claim this states "motorized equipment" in an effort to get it to seem like drones are banned:
Are motor vehicles allowed in wilderness?
No. The Wilderness Act generally prohibits the use of motor vehicles in wilderness. The law contains special provisions for motor vehicle use when required in emergencies or as necessary for the administration of the area. Motor vehicles may also be permitted for special uses such as access to a private inholding, to support grazing, or to exercise valid existing rights.
So, no... you've never provided any information to even indicate that drones are not allowed. But again, I've shown that the US Forest Service manages wilderness areas and that they _specifically_ state they only apply FAA regulations to drone use.
Flying in UT State Parks & Bonneville Salt Flats
"Drones are "motor vehicles". Feel free to call your nearest BLM office for clarification if you don't want to take my word for it."
We can simply look at their own documents for more information:
https://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/mt/blm_programs/recreation.Par.40376.File.dat/Rules and Regulations.pdf
"The following addresses the most commonly asked questions regarding public lands administered by the BLM in the Montana/Dakotas.
Motor Vehicles Remember, it is your responsibility to know where, when, and by what means (motorcycle, ATV, etc.) you may travel on public lands. Your cooperation keeps roads and trails open. Except in special designated areas, it is prohibited to:
Operate motor vehicles off established roads and trails.
Drive cross-country and/or hill climb.
Make new roads/trails.
Operate motor vehicles in a reckless or negligent manner.
Cause any environmental damage.
Operate ANY motor vehicle under the influence of alcohol or drugs.
Operate motor vehicles without proper head and tail lights at night.
Violate any state vehicle laws."
https://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/wy/information/docs.Par.1305.File.dat/publicaccess.pdf
"Motor vehicle use is restricted to established roads. Established roads as defined by the Board, means any roads or trails which have been graded or constructed to carry vehicular traffic, or on which repeated vehicular traffic has created well defined tracks. The Board may close specific State land roads and areas to public use on a permanent, temporary, or seasonal basis
For an agency that does not allow motorized vehicles on their land... they seem to have a lot of rules on how motorized vehicles can be used on their land.
I can go on and on with BLM's own information that motorized vehicle's can be used on land managed by the BLM. As I've stated, wilderness areas have _TONS_ of roads on them.
Also:
"Does BLM manage wilderness differently from other agencies?
No. Wilderness management is essentially the same from agency to agency, though each agency has its own specific laws and policies for resource management. All agencies respond to the same congressional direction from the Wilderness Act. Differences include the National Park Service prohibiting grazing in its Wilderness Areas, but this is because national parks normally do not allow these activities."
and, I'll add this:
FAQ Wilderness Areas
"Wilderness areas are managed by four federal agencies: the Bureau of Land Management, the Fish and Wildlife Service, the Forest Service, and the National Park Service."
As mentioned, I've already linked to the Forest Service's position on drone use (only limited by FAA regulations), we know the NPS does not allow drones, we don't really care about FWS and we are back to BLM. But that is it for management of wildlife areas.
You specifically mention Indian Peaks wilderness as a place where drones cannot be used. However, that area is managed by the US Forest Service and I've provided a link to their own information which _specifically_ states they only apply FAA regulations to the use of drones.
The only support you've provided is that motor vehicles are banned (which is clearly incorrect) and that the BLM considers a drone a "motor vehicle" which you don't provide any support for (which is also clearly incorrect).
So here is what we know for a fact:
The NFS manages wilderness areas. They specifically state that they don't apply any of their own limitations on drones, only what the FAA applies. So clearly drones can be used in wilderness areas. You then appear to rely on changing "motor vehicle" to "motor equipment" and claim that BLM considers drones "motor vehicle" and motor vehicle's cannot be used on BLM managed land. However, you offer no confirmation of this and I've posted tons of information right from the BLM showing that motor vehicle's can be used on the land they manage, which includes wilderness areas. There has been no documentation given that shows drones are prohibited in all wilderness areas as claimed (only information/documentation to the contrary).
My only issue is that people who read this thread have the correct information. I've provided a ton of support on my view. I feel that people now have enough information to make up their own minds.
I can only lead a horse to water, man. I don't know what mental block you have that's preventing you from understanding the land type definitions even when shown a crystal clear map. You fly where you want to fly. It doesn't make it legal, but if it's what makes you happy, you do you. But you're right about one thing only, it's important that people reading this thread have correct information, because the rangers aren't going to care that they were just operating off the incorrect information that tcope from internet gave them.
I'll quote the Wilderness Act for you again, just one more time, because you still haven't caught it...
You literally cannot even mountain bike in a Wilderness because that falls under "mechanical transport"... yet here you are trying to claim it's cool to drive and fly and all that awesome stuff.
You cannot even cut wood with a chainsaw in a Wilderness because it's "motorized equipment".
Utah Sens Lee and Hatch's Human Powdered Travel in Wilderness Act would allow bikes in wilderness areas
You can't even use a power drill in Wilderness areas.
http://www.climbing.com/people/fixed-anchors-in-the-wilderness/
I can only give you the facts, I can't make you understand them. No worries though, you're only looking at a $5,000 fine and/or six months in jail. I have personal, first-hand experience with these issues. I spend all my weekends in these places. I've heard the conversations with rangers and saw a friend have to drag a 3lb sledge and hand drill up a 5.11 pitch just to place an anchor on a Wilderness climbing route, simply because a powered drill isn't allowed. I've been involved in the debates and actions for keeping Wilderness free of bicycles. You're simply winging it off of "well I haven't gotten caught yet, so it's ok."
I'll quote the Wilderness Act for you again, just one more time, because you still haven't caught it...
You literally cannot even mountain bike in a Wilderness because that falls under "mechanical transport"... yet here you are trying to claim it's cool to drive and fly and all that awesome stuff.
You cannot even cut wood with a chainsaw in a Wilderness because it's "motorized equipment".
Utah Sens Lee and Hatch's Human Powdered Travel in Wilderness Act would allow bikes in wilderness areas
You can't even use a power drill in Wilderness areas.
http://www.climbing.com/people/fixed-anchors-in-the-wilderness/
I can only give you the facts, I can't make you understand them. No worries though, you're only looking at a $5,000 fine and/or six months in jail. I have personal, first-hand experience with these issues. I spend all my weekends in these places. I've heard the conversations with rangers and saw a friend have to drag a 3lb sledge and hand drill up a 5.11 pitch just to place an anchor on a Wilderness climbing route, simply because a powered drill isn't allowed. I've been involved in the debates and actions for keeping Wilderness free of bicycles. You're simply winging it off of "well I haven't gotten caught yet, so it's ok."
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****** it, that means if I am ever unlucky enough to get stuck out there in the "wilderness" no doubt once the domain of the native Redskins (land of the free home of etc), then my wife's vibrator she keeps in her overnight bag in case my age catches up with me shall fall foul of yet more laws.
Thanks Dan for pointing out my error that Death Valley is actually in California, not Nevada. I went back and corrected
my mixup.
I had never been in Death Valley National Park and I was blown away regarding the beauty as well as the stark, arid landscape.
I just made two flights, making sure I was far away from other people, which was not hard to do at all. Getting up before 0500 hours, meant I basically had the Park to myself.
Joshua Tree National Park was another incredible place, actually quite magical. One must be willing to drive off-road and or putting on your drone hard shell or soft pack and hiking two or three miles out into the desert. I carry six batteries in my pack for my P3Pro.
When I decide to purchase a Phantom 4 Pro, I think buying just three batteries should be enough.
I fear that it may be late March before I am able to head back west.
Wow--six batteries! That is great. I have 3 and was sort of smug about it. Not anymore.
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I'm going in June (Bryce, Moab, capital reef etc) and will bring my drone. Bet there are nice areas around the national parks where I can fly and photograph.
You're not supposed to fly in the parks but there are plenty of amazing places to fly just outside of them. Go to Google Earth and look at the areas just west and north of Capitol Reef and around Goblin Valley and the San Rafael Swell.
I'm really looking forward to getting down there with my new Phantom.
The Spiral Jetty at the north end of the Great Salt Lake near the Golden Spike monument would be a good drone destination too.
I'm really looking forward to getting down there with my new Phantom.
The Spiral Jetty at the north end of the Great Salt Lake near the Golden Spike monument would be a good drone destination too.
Before it becomes a state work of art...and they probably ban drones.
Lawmakers consider making Spiral Jetty official state work of art | KSL.com
Dan, I drove from Mexican Hat along Utah highway 261 up the Moki Dugway and then over to the Natural Bridges National Monument. What a beautiful place to fly my drone, I thought. Since the actual drive around the perimeter was only nine miles, so I decided I would go around and stop at each overlook. Shucks, before I got halfway it started sleeting, mixed with hail. Needless to say, no drone flying that day.
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The path is the goal. Meaning that it's the stuff you see on the way to a destination (state park) that may well be more interesting than the goal. At the very least it is a good attitude because your're less likely to be disappointed by crowds or expectations. I find that it is the light that makes or breaks a good drone flight and so I stop when the light gets interesting. Even Hohum scenery can really be extraordinary at sunrise or around the edges of a storm, or smoke from a fire, locust swarms, riots, teargas, Etc. Anza Borrego has killer sunsets due to the smog and pollution of SoCal. All that said, southern Utah looks amazing--even in the dark.
Ha! White canyon might not be the best place in that weather--in the narrows anyway. If you ever fly under Sipapu (when no one is watching) please post it! ive walked across that sucker to access a ruin on that ledge to the north.
Truly a wonder to behold. I spent 4th of July broke down on Moki Dugway. We were going to Mexican hat for the "fireworks"-- probably didn't miss much. Valley of the Gods is BLM and better than Monument Valley because of it. It lives up to its name and you can fly your heart out!
FYI, although most of Death Valley National Park is in California, a small portion does extend into Nevada. In any case, you're correct, of course, that - as a National Park - all of it is off-limits to drones. (And also, according to airmap.io, there's a large military NFZ that overlaps much of the park.)
Listen to what I am saying, the wilderness areas I was in most of time allow vehicles to drive on what they may refer as a road today, were basically wide trails the first few times I was out that way over 40 years ago. Now, some of the remote areas like the Waterpocket Fold or Hole in the Rock, just to name a couple are practically gravel roads. Trust me, I ask when needed.
I am planning on being away for three months and I do not lock myself into any kind of schedule.
Last Spring I drove over 60 miles into the Escalante Wilderness Area just a matter of miles from Bullfrog Crossing on Lake Powell. I had set up camp where I was planning on staying at least a week or more. One day some folks stopped at my camp and ask me if I knew about the storm heading my way, which I had not heard. The snow was expected to reach two feet deep in some of the areas in the high desert where I was camping. I packed up all my gear and dog and headed back to the tiny town of Escalante, Utah. That storm chased me all the way to Gallup, New Mexico on the west side of the state and then all the way to Taos, New Mexico. I stayed with friends and it was a week before the snow stopped and the weather had cleared up.
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I am planning on being away for three months and I do not lock myself into any kind of schedule.
Last Spring I drove over 60 miles into the Escalante Wilderness Area just a matter of miles from Bullfrog Crossing on Lake Powell. I had set up camp where I was planning on staying at least a week or more. One day some folks stopped at my camp and ask me if I knew about the storm heading my way, which I had not heard. The snow was expected to reach two feet deep in some of the areas in the high desert where I was camping. I packed up all my gear and dog and headed back to the tiny town of Escalante, Utah. That storm chased me all the way to Gallup, New Mexico on the west side of the state and then all the way to Taos, New Mexico. I stayed with friends and it was a week before the snow stopped and the weather had cleared up.
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