Flying in UT State Parks & Bonneville Salt Flats

[echomedia]

Can anyone advise me as to whether or not Drones can be flown at the Bonneville Salt Flats in Utah or Utah State Parks?

I know that all US National Parks and Monuments are off limits for drones, but the Bonneville Salt Flats are designated as a "National Recreation Area" and of course, State Parks are not National Parks. So I'm hoping....

 

[tcope]

Bonneville Salt Flats is simply barren BLM land. It's wide open, public land. There is _nothing_ out there. You can fly all you want.

State Parks depends. Some do allow drone use during the winter months. You can check their websites for more information.

 

[echomedia]

tcope: Are you familiar with the Salterns (evaporation ponds) that are located in the northeast region of the Great Salt Lake? (see attached photo) I'd like to get some aerial footage of those as well, but I'm not sure if it's private land that's hard to access, or whether the salterns will be colored with algae when I'm there next August.

 

[strike force]

I think I may have some useful information for you.
I took a five month trip out west just last year and I spent a great a lot of my time in Utah, especially in the southwest and south central Utah. I love the high desert, plus I like to photograph wild flowers, so I like to arrive in the area before the Desert wildflowers start to bloom and they start to bloom in late March and early April.
I took my first adventure and camping trip way back in 1973 and I have been able to go back there a number of times over the years.
You can't or are not supposed to fly any kind drone in the National Parks, but if you are willing to do a lot of off road driving and or hiking, you can fly to your hearts content.
I am am sure to catch some grief for telling you that, but there are a number of wilderness areas that you can fly safely and legally fly. These areas consist of millions of acres and incredibly wide open and beautiful country. So again, you can fly your drones legally or at least not be hassled because you will mostly likely not see very many people, if any.
A lot depends on the time of year and where you will wish to enter the state.
I did fly in in some the state parks, but when I went into the Kodachrome Basin State park, I asked at the kiosk if it was okay to fly my drone. The ranger told me that the new rules were not law, but they told me no. Now I had been going into the Kodachrome Basin area before they were even born and that trip may be the last time I ever get a chance to come back to that incredible place. I politely added that I may be a "bad boy" one time and launch my drone one time around the perimeter outside of the campground just long enough to film the rock formations found nowhere else in the world and I did.
I have many photographs and I am in the throes of learning how to do put good or at least decent videos. I took over 3,000 photographs with my different cameras including my iPhone, as well as over 60 videos.
When I left my home here in North Carolina, I had only about ten maybe 12 hours of flight time on my P3Pro, so I made a number of rookie mistakes like flying to fast when close to the ground, doing 360s to fast, stuff like that. I was actually too over cautious, so I am going back hopefully before Spring starts.
I wish there was a way I could give you my cellphone number. If you are on Facebook, let me know. I have numerous maps and other useful information.


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[echomedia]

I think I may have some useful information for you.
I took a five month trip out west just last year and I spent a great a lot of my time in Utah, especially in the southwest and south central Utah. I love the high desert, plus I like to photograph wild flowers, so I like to arrive in the area before the Desert wildflowers start to bloom and they start to bloom in late March and early April.
I took my first adventure and camping trip way back in 1973 and I have been able to go back there a number of times over the years.
You can't or are not supposed to fly any kind drone in the National Parks, but if you are willing to do a lot of off road driving and or hiking, you can fly to your hearts content.
I am am sure to catch some grief for telling you that, but there are a number of wilderness areas that you can fly safely and legally fly. These areas consist of millions of acres and incredibly wide open and beautiful country. So again, you can fly your drones legally or at least not be hassled because you will mostly likely not see very many people, if any.
A lot depends on the time of year and where you will wish to enter the state.
I did fly in in some the state parks, but when I went into the Kodachrome Basin State park, I asked at the kiosk if it was okay to fly my drone. The ranger told me that the new rules were not law, but they told me no. Now I had been going into the Kodachrome Basin area before they were even born and that trip may be the last time I ever get a chance to come back to that incredible place. I politely added that I may be a "bad boy" one time and launch my drone one time around the perimeter outside of the campground just long enough to film the rock formations found nowhere else in the world and I did.
I have many photographs and I am in the throes of learning how to do put good or at least decent videos. I took over 3,000 photographs with my different cameras including my iPhone, as well as over 60 videos.
When I left my home here in North Carolina, I had only about ten maybe 12 hours of flight time on my P3Pro, so I made a number of rookie mistakes like flying to fast when close to the ground, doing 360s to fast, stuff like that. I was actually too over cautious, so I am going back hopefully before Spring starts.
I wish there was a way I could give you my cellphone number. If you are on Facebook, let me know. I have numerous maps and other useful information.


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Thanks for the info, I'd love to find out more. Yes, I'm on Facebook. Here's the link: 需要安全验证

 

[strike force]

I did not see when you are planning on being there in August, so plan on hot days, but pleasantly cooler at night.
I also went to Death Valley, which everyone knows is in California not Nevada. I arrived on May first and the temperature dropped down to a balmy 97 degrees at 2300 hours during my first night.


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[tcope]

tcope: Are you familiar with the Salterns (evaporation ponds) that are located in the northeast region of the Great Salt Lake? (see attached photo) I'd like to get some aerial footage of those as well, but I'm not sure if it's private land that's hard to access, or whether the salterns will be colored with algae when I'm there next August.

I've not flown there so I can't say for sure. The difficult part is getting close to that area.

One area that I want to get back out to is the Spiral Jetty. The problem is, the only thing out in that area is Golden State _National_ Park. The Jetty is not in the park or close to anything (seriously) but I'd rather get some footage of something other then just the Jetty. Still, at the right time of year the Jetty could look cool. This year we have a good snow pack so the Salt Lake should be higher then it's been in several years.

If you are in the area of the Salt Flats, you may also want to consider The Tree of Utah. Yeah, don't ask. With the Spiral Jetty and The Utah Tree... people just had way too much time on their hands.

 

[AyeYo]

there are a number of wilderness areas that you can fly safely and legally fly. These areas consist of millions of acres and incredibly wide open and beautiful country. So again, you can fly your drones legally or at least not be hassled because you will mostly likely not see very many people, if any.

This is absolutely false. You need to distinguish between a "wilderness area" and a federally designated Wilderness Area. You absolutely are not permitted to fly (or use any motorized equipment) in a federally designated Wilderness Area. If what you're actually talking about is just "remote areas", then yes, National Forest/BLM land permits RC flying as long as animals are not disturbed. National Parks also openly forbid all drone use without authorization. Can you find plenty of remote areas in them without rangers that you can probably get away with flying in? Yes. Will you be flying legally? No. What you're saying is like saying "it's cool to trespass if you don't get caught."

State parks are another matter. Check the website for the individual park. I haven't looked into UT state parks, but all CO state parks forbid drone use officially... however, there are thousands of YouTube videos of people flying in CO state parks. I myself have even flown in CO state parks and county parks before realizing flying was prohibited - and rangers never said a word to me. In many cases, if you're flying responsibly, those restrictions are clearly not enforced. There are even plenty of anecdotes of pilots claiming that state park rangers simply told them not to fly around people or to fly during certain non-busy time periods. At least in CO, the state park restrictions seem to be in place for rangers to retain the right to throw out those people flying obnoxiously or dangerously.

 

[tcope]

You absolutely are not permitted to fly (or use any motorized equipment) in a federally designated Wilderness Area.

As it's absolute, can you provide any link./information/documentation to support this claim?

Unmanned Aircraft Systems FAQs | US Forest Service

"What is the U.S. Forest Service stance or regulations regarding hobbyist drones? Where is it OK to fly them? Where not? Why?
The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has regulatory authority over ALL airspace, including recreational use of airspace by model aircraft, which is covered by FAA Advisory Circular 91-57. The U.S. Forest Service does not have the authority to establish any additional regulations regarding where a UAS can or can’t be flown. However, recreational UAS must abide by Temporary Flight Restrictions (TFRs) in place by the FAA over disasters such as wildfires. The FAA also has an advisory (AIM Section 4, 7-4-6) with suggested limitations for flight over Wilderness areas. Unmanned Aircraft must abide with specifications identified through the FAA's Certificate of Authorization process which includes no flight over populated areas."

I've flown many times in wilderness areas. The US Forest Service and BLM have no issues with drone use as long as it complies with other existing laws. I've found that they actually quite agreeable with their use.

We are talking about nationally designated areas under the Wilderness Act (these are going to be the more strictly regulated areas). These can be National Forests, Wilderness areas and National parks.

Not that it's related, but there are many areas within Federal Wilderness areas where motor vehicle's can be used. I _many_ cases there are vehicle roads in wilderness areas that are to be used by vehicles.

If what you're actually talking about is just "remote areas", then yes, National Forest/BLM land permits RC flying as long as animals are not disturbed.

I have no idea how a "remote" area would change things. You say people are "absolutely" not allowed to fly in wilderness areas but then state that it is allowed as long as it's a "remote area". This makes no sense and is incorrect.

Last year I flew my Phantom on BLM land. Actually started to follow a white truck. As it go closer it turned out to be a ranger. I stood on the road with the controller. I waived at him and he waived at me as he went past.

 

[AyeYo]

As it's absolute, can you provide any link./information/documentation to support this claim?

Unmanned Aircraft Systems FAQs | US Forest Service

I think you need to get your definitions down before discussing.

Frequently Asked Questions

What is “Wilderness”?
Wilderness is a legal designation designed to provide long-term protection and conservation of Federal public lands. Wilderness is defined by the Wilderness Act of 1964 as “an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a visitor who does not remain…Federal land retaining its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions and which (1) generally appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man’s work substantially unnoticeable; (2) has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation; (3) has at least five thousand acres of land or is of sufficient size as to make practicable its preservation and use in an unimpaired condition; and (4) may also contain ecological, geological, or other features of scientific, educational, scenic, or historical value.”

How is wilderness different from other federal public lands?
Designated wilderness is the highest level of conservation protection for federal lands. Only Congress may designate wilderness or change the status of wilderness areas. Wilderness areas are designated within existing federal public land. Congress has directed four federal land management agencies—U.S. Forest Service, Bureau of Land Management, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and National Park Service—to manage wilderness areas so as to preserve and, where possible, to restore their wilderness character.

The Wilderness Act prohibits permanent roads and commercial enterprises, except commercial services that may provide for recreational or other purposes of the Wilderness Act. Wilderness areas generally do not allow motorized equipment, motor vehicles, mechanical transport, temporary roads, permanent structures or installations (with exceptions in Alaska). Wilderness areas are to be primarily affected by the forces of nature, though the Wilderness Act does acknowledge the need to provide for human health and safety, protect private property, control insect infestations, and fight fires within the area. Wilderness areas are managed under the direction of the Wilderness Act, subsequent legislation (such as the Alaska National Interest Lands Conservation Act), and agency policy.

"Wilderness" doesn't mean a remote area, an area without people, etc. These are defined spaces on a map (including sectional charts) with specific federal regulations in place within them.

Are motor vehicles allowed in wilderness?
No. The Wilderness Act generally prohibits the use of motor vehicles in wilderness. The law contains special provisions for motor vehicle use when required in emergencies or as necessary for the administration of the area. Motor vehicles may also be permitted for special uses such as access to a private inholding, to support grazing, or to exercise valid existing rights.

Drones are "motor vehicles". Feel free to call your nearest BLM office for clarification if you don't want to take my word for it.

PROHIBITION OF CERTAIN USES





(c) Except as specifically provided for in this Act, and subject to existing private rights, there shall be no commercial enterprise and no permanent road within any wilderness area designated by this Act and, except as necessary to meet minimum requirements for the administration of the area for the purpose of this Act (including measures required in emergencies involving the health and safety of persons within the area), there shall be no temporary road, no use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other form of mechanical transport, and no structure or installation within any such area.

Drones are also "aircraft".


"BLM land" simply means land owned or managed by BLM. It can be Wilderness, National Forest (Forest Service falls under BLM), etc. It's a meaningless term.

"National Forest" is also very specific type of land which has set boundaries on maps. Drone use IS permitted in National Forests, as is other motorized activities. These are multi-use areas and often include logging, mining, etc.

 

[Great Pumpkin]

I did not see when you are planning on being there in August, so plan on hot days, but pleasantly cooler at night.
I also went to Death Valley, which everyone knows is in Nevada. I arrived on May first and the temperature dropped down to a balmy 97 degrees at 2300 hours during my first night.


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BTW and FYI, Death Valley is in California, not Nevada, and it is a very large NFZ National Park. I wish it were possible for some of these National Parks to say where drone flights may be permitted rather than just saying "No" and "Nowhere" for the entire Park. How about allowing hobbyist drone flights in some parks on specific days and specific times, such as on Tuesday mornings, or two days a month, or 4 days a year?

 

[AyeYo]

National Parks are not "Wilderness" areas, but can contain Wilderness Areas within them. However, National Parks also expressly prohibit UAV use anywhere.

To:

Aviation: Unmanned Aerial Systems | U.S. National Park Service

Small Unmanned Aircraft Systems and the National Park Service
Current Status
On June 19, 2014, National Park Service Director Jonathon B. Jarvis signed Policy Memorandum 14–05, Unmanned Aircraft – Interim Policy. Its purpose was “to ensure that the use of unmanned aircraft is addressed in a consistent manner by the NPS before a significant level of such use occurs within the National Park System.” Each superintendent was directed “to use the authority under 36 CFR 1.5 to close units of the National Park System to launching, landing, or operating unmanned aircraft…” This policy is still in place and the public may not use unmanned aircraft in the national parks.

 

[tcope]

I think you need to get your definitions down before discussing.

"Wilderness" doesn't mean a remote area, an area without people, etc. These are defined spaces on a map (including sectional charts) with specific federal regulations in place within them.

Drones are "motor vehicles". Feel free to call your nearest BLM office for clarification if you don't want to take my word for it.

Drones are also "aircraft".

Yes, we are talking about areas as defined under the Wilderness Act. These area include National Forest, National Parks and Federal Forrest and Wilderness areas.

The quote about roads was from their website as mentioned. It's obviously inaccurate. You really think National Parks don't have a ton of well built roads within them? There are also a _ton_ of state and county roads that go through national forest and wilderness areas. An example... do a search for Ashley National Forest in UT. You will see a ton of state roads and hundreds of maintained dirt roads.All of these are 100% open to motor vehicles. You'd also see hundreds of trailers and motorhomes right off these roads. ATV's are also allowed in most of these areas (though, they are more restricted then on-road vehicles).

Dones are only considered aircraft in relationship to the FAA's jurisdiction over them. The Wilderness Act was written long before drones were even around.

BLM and the National Forrest system even state that they don't have specific regulations against drones:

Tips for Responsible Hobby or Recreational Use of Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS) or "Drones" on National Forest Systems Lands | US Forest Service
Given that their own information is that there is not a blanket ban on drones leaves me with a loss as to how you can claim this is an absolute.

"BLM land" simply means land owned or managed by BLM. It can be Wilderness, National Forest (Forest Service falls under BLM), etc. It's a meaningless term.

All of what you mentioned is managed under the Wilderness Act (i.e. it's the "wilderness" area being discussed). BLM land is the wilderness area that is managed by BLM. If the BLM allows does, drone are allowed in wilderness areas.

"National Forest" is also very specific type of land which has set boundaries on maps. Drone use IS permitted in National Forests, as is other motorized activities. These are multi-use areas and often include logging, mining, etc.

As National Forrest is part of the land under the Wilderness Act (it's the wilderness land being discussed), we are in agreement... the is no "absolute" ban as you stated.

 

[AyeYo]

Yes, we are talking about areas as defined under the Wilderness Act. These area include National Forest, National Parks and Federal Forrest and Wilderness areas.

The quote about roads was from their website as mentioned. It's obviously inaccurate. You really think National Parks don't have a ton of well built roads within them? .

This is a failure to understand definitions, not the verbatim text of the 1964 Wilderness Act not knowing what it's talking about.

National Parks are not Wilderness. National Parks can contain a Wilderness. National Forest is not Wilderness. A National Forest can contain a Wilderness. Wilderness is Wilderness. You have to first understand the definitions before you can understand where you are and aren't permitted to fly, and you clearly do not.

A Wilderness is a very specific type of area with its own use restrictions, defined in very non-ambiguous terms right in the Act itself:

PROHIBITION OF CERTAIN USES





(c) Except as specifically provided for in this Act, and subject to existing private rights, there shall be no commercial enterprise and no permanent road within any wilderness area designated by this Act and, except as necessary to meet minimum requirements for the administration of the area for the purpose of this Act (including measures required in emergencies involving the health and safety of persons within the area), there shall be no temporary road, no use of motor vehicles, motorized equipment or motorboats, no landing of aircraft, no other form of mechanical transport, and no structure or installation within any such area.

This is literal, verbatim text of the law itself. You don't have to agree with it if you don't want to, but that doesn't make it any less the law. The restriction of "motorized equipment" is so broad and sweeping that you literally cannot even bring a battery powered drill to install fixed gear on climbing routes. Any fixed gear must be installed with a manual hand drill and hammer.

 

[AyeYo]

Perhaps some photos will be of assistance in understanding the definitions.

This a National Forest, you can fly here:

This a Wilderness, you cannot fly here:

Notice that this Wilderness is contained within a National Forest.

Here's the same Wilderness where it extends into a different National Forest, you still can't fly here:

Here's that same National Forest in an area that does not contain a Wilderness, you can fly here:

 

[AyeYo]

Here's a nifty map. You'll notice that nearly the entire area of the map is Arapaho National Forest (light green). This National Forest contains numerous, smaller Wilderness areas (all the other colors). You can fly in the light green areas. You cannot fly in the colored areas.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5387126.pdf

 

[tcope]

National Parks are not Wilderness. National Parks can contain a Wilderness. National Forest is not Wilderness. A National Forest can contain a Wilderness. Wilderness is Wilderness. You have to first understand the definitions before you can understand where you are and aren't permitted to fly, and you clearly do not.

There is no confusion in what the point was:

"You absolutely are not permitted to fly (or use any motorized equipment) in a federally designated Wilderness Area."

By you own statement, a National Forest can be in wilderness. I think we all agree that you _can_ fly in National Forest. So even if you only take that information, your statement above is incorrect.

You post a sign of the Indian Peaks Wilderness area and states that you cannot fly a drone there. Can you provide any information to confirm this? According to their website, that location is operated by the US Forest Service. As I've posted above, the US Forest Service does not disallow drones as long as the person follows FAA regulations.

 

[echomedia]

Thanks for all the info! If anyone has specific flying experience for places in Southern Utah (Capital Reef, Canyon Lands, Lake Powell, Arches) please share your info, particularly if it's National Forest land, as that seems to be the most drone-friendly based on the replies to this thread. Thanks!

 

[strike force]

Oops, my error. I actually do know that Death Valley is in California. I had stopped for the night in Mesquite, Nevada before heading into to Death Valley, California. During that stage of my long journey, I passed a billboard advertising both a restaurant and brothel. When I saw that, I knew I had to be in Nevada. I just had to stop and take a couple of photographs of that billboard. I drove into Death Valley by way of Highway 190.
I did launch my Phantom twice, once in the late evening and once, early in the morning just before sunrise. Now this was late April, so there weren't many people in the park and I strived to be as far away people as possible.



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[strike force]

Do NOT TRY AND FLY ON ANY INDIAN RESERVATION OR PROPERTY OF ANY KIND. They will confiscate your drone and any firearm you may have with you. Our Constitution and Bill of Rights are null and void, the moment you cross onto their land. This is where courtesy, politeness and respect really pays off.


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