Droning could be considered Surveying . . at least in one state

[BigAl07]

For those of us who want to get the most out of our UAS and want to try and tap into new and NICHE markets we need to realize what we are doing could be "interpreted" as Professional and as such fall under state regulations. Here's an exert from a FB group where an individual contacted The North Carolina Board of Examiners for Engineers and Surveyors in regards to certain possible drone operations. Keep in mind that this is NOT legal advice but it's almost directly from The North Carolina Board of Examiners for Engineers and Surveyors so it should carry some extra weight and be heeded heavily.

I would like to share the responses I received from the North Carolina Board of Examiners for Engineers and Surveyors with regards to specific scenarios I provided to see what I could and could not do with my Phantom 4.

Questions:
1. I take aerial photographs of land for a developer and use software to stitch the images together. I sell him the individual photographs without any geological references.
Answer:
If there is no meta data or other information about coordinates, distances, property boundaries or anything that falls within the definition of land surveying in GS 89C-3(7) then simple taking and providing the photographs does not require a land surveying license.

2. I take the same photographs and process them into a topographic contour map to show elevation so the developer can determine if too much grading would be needed before buying the land and paying for a surveyor.
Answer:
No, this would be within the definition of land surveying.

3. There is a structure on this land, so I take the same photographs and process them into a 3D model so the developer can get a sense of its appearance from all sides and from top to bottom.
Answer:
No, this would be within the definition of land surveying.

4. The developer wants to know the relative size of the land, so I process the same photographs so the developer can go online and do rough order of magnitude measurements using a distance tool.
Answer:
No, this would be within the definition of land surveying.

5. The developer also wants to get a feel for the area and volume of a large stock pile of stone left on the property, so I process the same photographs so the developer can go online and draw a polygon around the stock pile and use a software tool to tell him area and cubic yards contained in the stock pile.
Answer:
No, this would be within the definition of land surveying, as further explained in the Board’s Volume Computation Surveys Policy.

6. Would it make a difference if I delivered the photographs to the developer stating that the images are not a licensed survey?
Answer:
No, it would still be within the definition of land surveying.

 

[doktorinjh]

Very interesting. I would also recommend that everyone should either know their State rules or get a surveyor to work with you. Some of these examples have such a low risk that I would be surprised if you couldn't get a PLS to verify and stamp your work, for a fee of course. I did some work in Wyoming and had the PLS Board called on me. They indicated that as long as I wasn't doing any legal or cadastral surveys, that I was ok to provide topo maps, orthos, 3D models, etc. So, check with your State, you don't want to wind up in a legal battle trying to defend the results of your survey that someone used to build a subdivision on..

 

[r62ewa]

Thanks for the post with questions. I am going to use them to guide my call to our Surveyor Association to see what their stance is on drone work.

 

[Nomesurveyor]

I am registered in Alaska & Texas. I'd have to agree with with your N. Carolina board. If you are providing orthos, TIN's, contours, etc, which is information concerning the land that your client will rely upon to make business (I.e. "MONEY) decisions upon...., that is certainly "surveying" and this work should be reviewed and certified by a registered LS. This is for YOUR PROTECTION as well as your clients'. Just giving your client a "disclaimer" as you stated will NOT PROTECT YOU if your client relies on the information that YOU provided him/her and it turns out to be flawed (or worse). Being a professional photographer is NOT being a professional land surveyor. I would be VERY CAREFUL if I were you my friend........

 

[Nomesurveyor]

Very interesting. I would also recommend that everyone should either know their State rules or get a surveyor to work with you. Some of these examples have such a low risk that I would be surprised if you couldn't get a PLS to verify and stamp your work, for a fee of course. I did some work in Wyoming and had the PLS Board called on me. They indicated that as long as I wasn't doing any legal or cadastral surveys, that I was ok to provide topo maps, orthos, 3D models, etc. So, check with your State, you don't want to wind up in a legal battle trying to defend the results of your survey that someone used to build a subdivision on..

I think you pretty much said it in your closing statement...... "you don't want to wind up in a legal battle trying to defend the results of your survey that someone used to build a subdivision on.." Key word being "SURVEY". I suggest NOT using the word "survey" or even reference.

 

[Altitude Video]

I live in Australia and we are using drones to capture as-built structures and using them to measure what we designed is being built accurately. Even during construction we measure stockpile volumes accurately and can measure slopes and grades on ground and betters (daylights) etc. All those question i would answer YES however i would not call it a survey as such. There information we capture is ortho-rectified to MGA (map grid of Australia) so to real coordinated using ground control so any point on the 3D map has an x,y and z coordinate however we do not have boundary fix points so you cannot use it do design a sub-division for example. If the developer wants to know all that information we can sure give it to him using photographs and the accuracy will be within 50mm so they can use it to work out if it is feasible to purchase the land to develop.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[Nomesurveyor]

I live in Australia and we are using drones to capture as-built structures and using them to measure what we designed is being built accurately. Even during construction we measure stockpile volumes accurately and can measure slopes and grades on ground and betters (daylights) etc. All those question i would answer YES however i would not call it a survey as such. There information we capture is ortho-rectified to MGA (map grid of Australia) so to real coordinated using ground control so any point on the 3D map has an x,y and z coordinate however we do not have boundary fix points so you cannot use it do design a sub-division for example. If the developer wants to know all that information we can sure give it to him using photographs and the accuracy will be within 50mm so they can use it to work out if it is feasible to purchase the land to develop.

I hope that makes sense.

I would expect that kind of a reply from a non-professional providing professional services. But let me ask you a question.......OK, you do your thing, produce your orthos, generate point cloud, contour map.....and your client develops plans from your work. Now, he hires a REAL Land Surveyor whom does his site control thing and starts staking the site for rough grading......the surveyor says that the data he is coming up with doesn't match your work and it's significant.
Now, your client is pretty pissed-off and wants to sue you for "errors and omissions" for your flawed work.
The surveyor he hired can and will stand by his product....How are you gonna defend ? Don't say that you gave him a "disclaimer"....that won't fly when there's possibly hundreds of thousands (more) at stake because you gave that "bad data".. Your gonna LOSE. If you are not a licensed land surveyor.....your'e gonna need a pile of money to make this go away.....and I guess your good reputation is going to be "out the window" as well. You are headed for eventual trouble and grief my misguided, mis-infomed friend...and YES, I do have friends in Australia who are licensed and they agree....Nuf' said!

 

[Altitude Video]

I work for a local Council. We are the client. We are hiring companies doing this work for us. We know why we hired them and yes we do concept plans from the data however we know the data can only be used and pushed so far before we send out a surveyor and get a detailed survey. The information we originally received from drone data was good enough to work out what/how/how much/limitations/etc.

The companies that provide the data to us clearly state in their quotations and result reports what the information was produced for and what we can do with it so i don't see how we will win in a court system when they clearly told us.

If you were wondering the accuracy of the data i can tell you its completely dependent on the spacing of ground control, focal length, camera, and how close you shoot. When you find a good balance and bring those ground control points closer we can achieve 30mm accuracy

 

[doktorinjh]

We know why we hired them

According to the other posters, you're wrong and you should feel bad. The only way to get within a half mile of accuracy is to use the salty surveyor that uses a plain table. These are the same guys that fought against GPS when it came out and will fight the next new tech. They feel like their piece of the pie is being doled out to others that haven't earned the right to use a yard stick because there are no letters behind their name.

The reality is that there are a lot of tools out there that - when used with a reasonable amount of thought and care - can produce surveys that are extremely reliable. It isn't difficult to get accurate and precise ground control points and to calibrate them against known control. It isn't difficult to compare topo checkshots against your model and to produce accuracy statements. It isn't difficult to meet mapping standards using consumer level drone equipment. The biggest barrier is probably the cost to buy the things that make the job easy to do and that is rapidly changing.

Are there drone operators out there using faulty methods? Absolutely. Are there "aerial surveyors" out there that don't use ground control and still pass off their work as surveying? Absolutely. Will these companies be around in a year? No. Let the wheat separate from the chaff. But, to prevent someone from providing a client an orthophoto because they don't have 4 years of using a rod and chain is unsustainable. I believe that there can be a happy medium and I sincerely hope that the efforts by ASPRS to create a Certified UAS Mapping Scientist are met with open arms by the PLS Boards across the country. The definitions of "surveying" need to be updated to reflect legal and topographic types of workflows and to accommodate new technology.

 

[Nomesurveyor]

I work for a local Council. We are the client. We are hiring companies doing this work for us. We know why we hired them and yes we do concept plans from the data however we know the data can only be used and pushed so far before we send out a surveyor and get a detailed survey. The information we originally received from drone data was good enough to work out what/how/how much/limitations/etc.

The companies that provide the data to us clearly state in their quotations and result reports what the information was produced for and what we can do with it so i don't see how we will win in a court system when they clearly told us.

If you were wondering the accuracy of the data i can tell you its completely dependent on the spacing of ground control, focal length, camera, and how close you shoot. When you find a good balance and bring those ground control points closer we can achieve 30mm accuracy

No, I think you are missing the point of my discussion. For instance.....ALL photogrammetric producers in the state of California are required to have an LS on staff.....there are others as well that require this. We surveyors have an old saying it goes...."Garbage in.....Garbage out". so if you have "weak" data, your design will be "weak" correspondingly. I have been in this business for over 40 years and much of my work is produced with aerial/drone assistance. You're "preachin' to the choir" trying to explain accuracy (versus precision) and how to achieve. The establishment of your ground control points (by GNSS methods or conventional traversing) is certainly Surveying (a rose by any other name...) It's prudent, responsible surveyors such as myself and many others that will one day have to "save your bacon"......please continue your questionable practices....what comes around....goes around...I'm done preachin'

 

[doktorinjh]

please continue your questionable practices

There's nothing "questionable" about my practices. All of our work is supervised by several PLS, our methods are routinely checked, and we have greater quality control than almost anyone, I'd be willing to bet. I'm also lucky to have photogrammetrists, geodesists, and a traditional survey team at my disposal.

 

[garysinise]

There's nothing "questionable" about my practices. All of our work is supervised by several PLS, our methods are routinely checked, and we have greater quality control than almost anyone, I'd be willing to bet. I'm also lucky to have photogrammetrists, geodesists, and a traditional survey team at my disposal.

I'd like to know more about your company, tech and services. PM me like to talk. Cheers

 

[Nomesurveyor]

There's nothing "questionable" about my practices. All of our work is supervised by several PLS, our methods are routinely checked, and we have greater quality control than almost anyone, I'd be willing to bet. I'm also lucky to have photogrammetrists, geodesists, and a traditional survey team at my disposal.

Excuse me sir: You never communicated this? I stand corrected and wish you nothing but good tidings...I'm glad to acknowledge your responsible choice. Please...carry on....

 

[doktorinjh]

I'm glad to acknowledge your responsible choice.

There are a few of us out here.