Commercial Flying Without a 333

[BRENTHABBESHAW]

If you are not going to sell P3P derived footage, there is nothing to worry about. Take all the footage you want.

As far as the 333 goes, at this time you need a pilot's license before you can get it. If you don't have a pilot's license, and you don't hire a pilot to be on hand when you operate the drone, then forget about the 333.

I'm banking on the FAA creating a new rule for drone operators to sell their footage, and so I am building up a library of files for use later.

NO, YOU DO NOT NEED A PILOTS LISCENSE TO GET THE FAA 333, You need the pilots liscense to fly once you get the FAA 333 !

 

[Dants]

For those saying you need a pilot's license to get 333 exemption, not true. I encourage you to visit Authorizations Granted Via Section 333 Exemptions and view the applications of those who were granted the exemption but don't hold a pilot's license. This is also a place to view the requirements if you choose to seek the exemption.

 

[Carl Dickinson]

May be if you have proof those competitors are operating illegally, you can send notice to FAA to investigate them? That may eliminate your competition in the future too

Probably not a good idea! You might have bitten off more than you could chew---Just sayin'---

 

[jlgrant50]

If you are not going to sell P3P derived footage, there is nothing to worry about. Take all the footage you want.

As far as the 333 goes, at this time you need a pilot's license before you can get it. If you don't have a pilot's license, and you don't hire a pilot to be on hand when you operate the drone, then forget about the 333.

I'm banking on the FAA creating a new rule for drone operators to sell their footage, and so I am building up a library of files for use later.

A pilot's license to fly a drone? How ridiculous can you get?

 

[penguinmaster]

NO, YOU DO NOT NEED A PILOTS LISCENSE TO GET THE FAA 333, You need the pilots liscense to fly once you get the FAA 333 ![/
\

Alright guys, so this is the deal. I work in commercial video production and recently discovered the joy of the P3P. Every one of my competitors is flying drones, 95% of them do NOT have a 333 exemption. I am currently in the process of applying for my 333, but being that this can take months, I don't want to miss out on work in the meantime. If I keep things very safe, don't market the service and don't draw a lot of attention to myself, would I be fine? Also, kind of personal, but how many of you are flying for commercial use without a 333? Thanks for the input, I really appreciate the help.

dude can you imagine the example they would make out of you to johny public and you probly should have said you have a friend thing they do read these

We currently have a pilot that can fly our drone, we can also meet all of the other requirements. We just haven't received our finalized exemption yet...

You guys are probably right and it isn't worth the risk. It just seems crazy when ALL of my competitors are doing it without exemption at all or pilot. Following the rules in this case is actually doing massive damage to my business.

just wait one of them will get caught and they will hang them in public as an example

 

[twist4]

It's something new - it hasn't been worked out yet.
But it's generally expected to to be pretty simple and replace the ridiculous requirement to have an airplane licence to use a toy drone to photograph.

If it was a toy, it is not any longer. Times change and we are at war still in case anyone forgot.

 

[twist4]

A pilot's license to fly a drone? How ridiculous can you get?

Not a pilot huh? It is very simple. A pilot has airspace training, worked very hard to learn to act professionally in the Federal System, and has something to lose....his license.

So, if you think it through.... not ridiculous. Pilots are licensed as responsible flyers.

 

[jephoto]

Getting a 333 is not the end of the requirements. There is still state licensing, insurance, flight ops manuals that include checklists, maintenance procedures, and record keeping.
Focus on building up a complete program and operating in the most professional manner that you can.
Once you step into the professional realm, it is no longer a hobby.
Forget making money for now and focus on operating professionally so that when you do get all the paperwork lined up, you will be way ahead of where you would be otherwise.
Once the FAA starts issuing hefty fines to those operating outside the requirements, you will find yourself out in front of the competition.
You can't go wrong by doing it the right way, and you won't have the fear the FAA.

Recce2- where might I find more info on putting together a proper program?
There's lots of great info here- spread out over many topics & posts. But if you can point a few links out that would help me organize it a bit that would be appreciated.
I do more stills than video, though of course I want to provide video for clients that want it.
For me it would be more real estate and added value to corporate and editorial still shoots.

Couple other questions about the 333 rules that I'm fuzzy on :
The COA - is that something that we have to get for every assignment? For many shoots that's not practical as we are so weather dependent- "looks like a good day to fly today/ tomorrow, shoot it while we can...." It would be near impossible to apply for permission to shoot on particular day & location in advance. And how long does that process take?
Or- is a COA something you apply for to allow us to fly in a local area- as in "I need to operate in the Chicago & surrounding area, within the FAA guidelines of course" and if I have an upcoming job is say Pheonix, need to get a COA for Pheonix? Definitely fuzzy about this.

Also, once we have the 333- and of course a Pilot to operate...- all commercial shoots at this point really limited to 200', not 400?
For a lot of real estate 200 might be enough, but many commercial properties really need that 400' that hobbyists can now do.
Often we won't know if we need more than 200' until on site.

Are all of you shooting commercially with your 333' staying under 200'? Can you get permission for a particular job to go higher?
Thx for the info.

 

[Timtro]

In other words, AC91-57 will be a rule, not advisory.[/B]

Make that AC91-57A[/URL] - [URL]https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_91-57A.pdf[/URL]

 

[WetDog]

Recce2- where might I find more info on putting together a proper program?
There's lots of great info here- spread out over many topics & posts. But if you can point a few links out that would help me organize it a bit that would be appreciated.
I do more stills than video, though of course I want to provide video for clients that want it.
For me it would be more real estate and added value to corporate and editorial still shoots.

Couple other questions about the 333 rules that I'm fuzzy on :
The COA - is that something that we have to get for every assignment? For many shoots that's not practical as we are so weather dependent- "looks like a good day to fly today/ tomorrow, shoot it while we can...." It would be near impossible to apply for permission to shoot on particular day & location in advance. And how long does that process take?
Or- is a COA something you apply for to allow us to fly in a local area- as in "I need to operate in the Chicago & surrounding area, within the FAA guidelines of course" and if I have an upcoming job is say Pheonix, need to get a COA for Pheonix? Definitely fuzzy about this.

Also, once we have the 333- and of course a Pilot to operate...- all commercial shoots at this point really limited to 200', not 400?
For a lot of real estate 200 might be enough, but many commercial properties really need that 400' that hobbyists can now do.
Often we won't know if we need more than 200' until on site.

Are all of you shooting commercially with your 333' staying under 200'? Can you get permission for a particular job to go higher?
Thx for the info.

You have a bunch of specific questions but you need to get a broader base of info before you can begin to figure out which questions you should ask. Start with the FAA UAV page.

Then you might want to wait a bit until the dust settles. Currently the 333 exemptions are very onerous. For one thing you need to be a pilot or have a licensed pilot supervising the flight. The altitude limit will likely stay in effect.

RTFM ....

 

[jephoto]

2 posts back I asked about the COA. I did just read that the COA is about getting permission to fly in a particular "block of airspace".
So that partially answers a question. Says application for COA takes typically 60-90 days.
But my assignments rarely are booked 60-90 days out. Often it's "Can you shoot next Tuesday" - that's when the client has time. Period.
So a few addition questions:
-How large is each "Block of airspace" ?
-How long is the COA good for?
-can I apply for coa's for every market I might need to shoot in for the year?
Even if I could predict that.....

 

[wsalopek]

May be if you have proof those competitors are operating illegally, you can send notice to FAA to investigate them? That may eliminate your competition in the future too

You know as sickening as it feels to be a narc...this, sadly, is the only way to keep the playing field fair. I agree that turning in the law-breakers is the only way to go. Yes, that's sickening, esp when each of us know how safe we truly can be without the FAA's blessing, but it is what it is. Those other folks are committing a crime, (for a profit no less), and, at the expense of current and future business of law-abiding folks.

That's not right.

 

[wsalopek]

A lot of people have challenged the legality of the FAA enforcing anything below 400 feet for small drones. Some lawsuits have successfully ruled in the favor, although not all. With litigation on going.

The FAA is supposed to encourage safety. You can fly the exact same way/path as a hobby, but as soon as you decide to sell some pictures you're out of bounds. What exactly does this have to do with safety?

The idea behind the safety aspect is that a pilot will generally take more risks when there is compensation involved to get the shot, fly the airplane, etc. That's what drives the distinction between recreational and commercial as far as the FAA is concerned.

 

[wsalopek]

2 posts back I asked about the COA. I did just read that the COA is about getting permission to fly in a particular "block of airspace".
So that partially answers a question. Says application for COA takes typically 60-90 days.
But my assignments rarely are booked 60-90 days out. Often it's "Can you shoot next Tuesday" - that's when the client has time. Period.
So a few addition questions:
-How large is each "Block of airspace" ?
-How long is the COA good for?
-can I apply for coa's for every market I might need to shoot in for the year?
Even if I could predict that.....

The FAA recently said that anyone with a 333 can fly anywhere below 200 feet (but not to the exclusion of the other safety rules...like near an airport, etc).

 

[Tony Wilson]

Alright guys, so this is the deal. I work in commercial video production and recently discovered the joy of the P3P. Every one of my competitors is flying drones, 95% of them do NOT have a 333 exemption. I am currently in the process of applying for my 333, but being that this can take months, I don't want to miss out on work in the meantime. If I keep things very safe, don't market the service and don't draw a lot of attention to myself, would I be fine? Also, kind of personal, but how many of you are flying for commercial use without a 333? Thanks for the input, I really appreciate the help.

Just put aside $25,000.00 to $250.000.00 so when you get caught you will will enough for the fines. You should be fine.

 

[Meta4]

If it was a toy, it is not any longer. Times change and we are at war still in case anyone forgot.

It was and still is a toy - nothing has changed that..
I can't see the relevance of your second comment. That doesn't change anything, particularly relating to toys.
Timeline of United States military operations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Meta4]

The idea behind the safety aspect is that a pilot will generally take more risks when there is compensation involved to get the shot, fly the airplane, etc. That's what drives the distinction between recreational and commercial as far as the FAA is concerned.

Not a pilot huh? It is very simple. A pilot has airspace training, worked very hard to learn to act professionally in the Federal System, and has something to lose....his license.

So, if you think it through.... not ridiculous. Pilots are licensed as responsible flyers.

But if you are talking about commercial photography, it is ridiculous that a recreational flyer can fly and take a photo in complete accordance with all FAA rules - but if he sells the photo, that makes the flight illegal.
Requiring a pilot's licence to sell otherwise legal drone photography is like requiring a medical degree to apply a bandaid.

The FAA etc should stick to things related to aviation safety and not determining who can and who can't legally sell photography.
That's restraint of trade - not aviation safety.

 

[Meta4]

The idea behind the safety aspect is that a pilot will generally take more risks when there is compensation involved to get the shot, fly the airplane, etc. That's what drives the distinction between recreational and commercial as far as the FAA is concerned.

That's the problem when you try to think of a small drone as an airplane.
It's the exact opposite of how things are in the real world.
A commercial drone flier is much less likely to engage in risky flying.
He's experienced and knows what he can do and what he can't.
He knows that if he loses his equipment, he can't do the next job.
He has a lot more at stake than a recreational flier.

 

[ianwood]

People. Please search before posting. There are at least a bazillion threads on the 333 already.

Here's a quick summary for those in the cheap seats. The 333 is one of many steps required to receive any form of compensation for operating your drone, either directly or otherwise. If your flight is provided as a service to someone else, it is commercial. No creative accounting will change that.

Another requirement is that the drone can only be piloted by a licensed pilot with a current medical certificate. No license? You cannot fly the drone. Period. In addition, your exemption will have many requirements and constraints to it that you will need to follow. You should see how much fun it is to make changes or do maintenance on your "aircraft".

Think you can get away with operating commercially without meeting the full requirements? Your competition will see to it that you are grounded. They can search for your 333 and if they don't find it, you can bet they will report you.

 

[DAP-UAV]

If you are not going to sell P3P derived footage, there is nothing to worry about. Take all the footage you want.

As far as the 333 goes, at this time you need a pilot's license before you can get it. If you don't have a pilot's license, and you don't hire a pilot to be on hand when you operate the drone, then forget about the 333.

I'm banking on the FAA creating a new rule for drone operators to sell their footage, and so I am building up a library of files for use later.

You do not need a pilots certificate to get a Section 333, just to use it.