Recreational Operation in Class B Airspace

[smiller]

Regarding operation in Class B airspace for recreational (not Part 107) flying...

For all the lengthy discussion of Class B airports I have been unable to find any written prohibition against recreational drone flying within Class B airspace under 400', beyond the usual 5-mile notification process. DJI has created no-fly zones close (1-2 miles) of certain Class B airports, and while I'm not disputing the value of these I'm still wondering where they came from in terms of a regulatory standpoint? I would not likely choose to fly within a mile or two of any airport but can someone point me to a regulation that says I cannot fly for purely recreational purposes at low altitude and, say, 4 miles from a Class B airport and within Class B airspace? (with notification of course.)

Thanks

 

[Crack The Sky]

Regarding operation in Class B airspace for recreational (not Part 107) flying...

For all the lengthy discussion of Class B airports I have been unable to find any written prohibition against recreational drone flying within Class B airspace under 400', beyond the usual 5-mile notification process. DJI has created no-fly zones close (1-2 miles) of certain Class B airports, and while I'm not disputing the value of these I'm still wondering where they came from in terms of a regulatory standpoint? I would not likely choose to fly within a mile or two of any airport but can someone point me to a regulation that says I cannot fly for purely recreational purposes at low altitude and, say, 4 miles from a Class B airport and within Class B airspace? (with notification of course.)

Thanks

What airport are you specifically referring to? I can help you make much better sense of the rules if I knew that.

 

[smiller]

Well say LAX. If you look at the sectional you'll see that several coastal/beach areas are within the 10k/Surface Class B space but well outside of DJI's NFZ. If I was in one of these areas outside of the NFZ what would prohibit me from operating recreationally at low altitude as long as notification was given?

Los Angeles Intl Airport VFR Sectional (Los Angeles, CA) [KLAX/LAX] ✈ FlightAware

 

[Crack The Sky]

Give me 15 minutes. The wife just put dinner on the table. Be right back, and we'll dope it out.

 

[smiller]

Enjoy your dinner, I can stand the suspense

 

[K9VXV]

Well say LAX. If you look at the sectional you'll see that several coastal/beach areas are within the 10k/Surface Class B space but well outside of DJI's NFZ. If I was in one of these areas outside of the NFZ what would prohibit me from operating recreationally at low altitude as long as notification was given?

Los Angeles Intl Airport VFR Sectional (Los Angeles, CA) [KLAX/LAX] [emoji574] FlightAware

I wonder this as well. For example my work city is class B within anywhere of 5 miles of the airport but if we are flying for fun then we just notify to the tower which in my case is a voicemail and if they object they will just call us back, right?

 

[smiller]

The basic question is this... are there any regulations specifically prohibiting recreational operation in Class B airspace assuming all normal requirements for recreational operation are met when flying under 'Special Rules for Model Aircraft' as detailed at Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS) Frequently Asked Questions, which does not note any special restrictions for Class B airspace. Even the FAA's more detailed examination and clarification of the rules ( https://www.faa.gov/uas/media/model_aircraft_spec_rule.pdf ) does not mention any special restriction for Class B airspace.

 

[Crack The Sky]

Here's a link to VFR-Map that I like. It allows you to toggle between a Google Earth view to locate your potential flying site and then toggle to the FAA Sectional. Very complex airspace.
VFRMAP - Digital Aeronautical Charts
1. The only "Surface" B is between between El Segundo and Marina Del Ray. Further up the beach towards Santa Monica, on up through Mailbu to Point Dume, the "B" begins, (bottom) at 500 MSL. So, for starters, from just below Pt. Mugu Navel Air Station - Class "D", all the way through Point Dume, through Malibu to just outside of the Santa Monica Class "D", you are good to go with no notification to anyone, AS LONG AS YOU STAY BELOW 500 MSL. Don't forget, MSL is measured from the ocean surface NOT the ground you are standing on. That means if you are standing 350' above the ocean level, on the hills behind Malibu or Point Dume, (for example), the Class "B" floor is only 150" above your head. At 150' AGL there, you would need to notify ATC.
2. Even though the Santa Monica beach area is below the 500' MSL bottom of the Class "B", you have Santa Monica Class "D", (to the surface) to deal with if you want to fly those beaches, and would need to notify Santa Monica even if you flew at 5' off the sand. But remember, Class "D" is only Class "D" when the tower is operation. When the tower is closed, that airspace would revert to uncontrolled "G", up to the bottom of the Class "B" at 500 MSL., but the (5) mile notification rule would stand.
3. To answer the question that you just posted,"is there any regulation prohibiting recreational operation in Class B airspace assuming all normal requirements for recreational operation are met (notification if within 5 miles, under 400', etc.)", I DON"T THINK SO. BUT, with good planning & bullet proof situational awareness, you can avoid Class "B" altogether, by being under it, and still have miles and miles of beach/hill area for flying.
Finally, I say get Santa Monica and LAX's Tower phone numbers and call them. Let them know your intentions. See what they say.
Now, if I have not totally confused you, we have not addressed Hospital, & Law Enforcement heliports that may be along your planned route. It's my impression that those folks would need to be notified also.
I'm just glad I live in rural Arkansas.
Happy flying!

 

[smiller]

Actually LAX turned out to be a poor example due to the complexity of the surrounding Class B space, probably LAS would have been a better example. But regardless, after doing a lot of digging I think I have answered my own question: even recreational flying in Class B airspace is in fact prohibited under 14 CFR § 99.7 — 'Special Security Instructions' ( Airspace Restrictions )

B4UFLY indicates this although not the reason why. Another excellent reference is at Home | Federal Aviation Administration - Unmanned Aircraft System , if you enable the 'Class B' layer you can click anywhere on the map and see Class B limits, which can be a lot easier than trying to read the info on some sectionals.

 

[Crack The Sky]

Actually LAX turned out to be a bad example due to the complexity of the surrounding Class B space, probably LAS would have been a better example. But regardless, after doing a lot of digging I think I have answered my own question: even recreational flying in Class B airspace is in fact prohibited under 14 CFR § 99.7 — 'Special Security Instructions' ( Airspace Restrictions )

B4UFLY indicates this although not the reason why. Another excellent reference is at Home | Federal Aviation Administration - Unmanned Aircraft System , if you enable the 'Class B' layer you can click anywhere on the map and see Class B limits, which can be a lot easier than trying to read the info on some sectionals.

Well, 14 CFR 99.7 refers ADIZ penetrations and the new restrictions over military bases. ADIZ's are Air Defense Identification Zones that surround the USA coast. Similar to the 12 mile offshore limit in boating. You don't need to worry about that unless you plan on flying miles out to sea. But you are correct, the FAA has added this to their sUAS website recently, "Recreational operators are required to give notice for flights within five miles of an airport to both the airport operator and air traffic control tower, if the airport has a tower. However, recreational operations are not permitted in Class B airspace around most major airports without specific air traffic permission and coordination".
So, you might be allowed in, but it would require prior notification, receipt of permission, and "coordination".
Like I said earlier, plenty of places to fly UNDER the Class "B". Just be sure where you are.

 

[smiller]

Well, 14 CFR 99.7 refers ADIZ penetrations and the new restrictions over military bases. ADIZ's are Air Defense Identification Zones that surround the USA coast. Similar to the 12 mile offshore limit in boating. You don't need to worry about that unless you plan on flying miles out to sea. But you are correct, the FAA has added this to their sUAS website recently, "Recreational operators are required to give notice for flights within five miles of an airport to both the airport operator and air traffic control tower, if the airport has a tower. However, recreational operations are not permitted in Class B airspace around most major airports without specific air traffic permission and coordination".
So, you might be allowed in, but it would require prior notification, receipt of permission, and "coordination".
Like I said earlier, plenty of places to fly UNDER the Class "B". Just be sure where you are.

Yeah, I wasn't referring to the ADIZ stuff, just the "recreational operations are not permitted in Class B airspace around most major airports without specific air traffic permission and coordination" section which is pretty unequivocal. You can obtain permission, but of course the important distinction is the need for formal permission vs. mere notification. And yes, often you can fly under Class B airspace but in some areas it is surprising just how extensive the 'to the ground' Class B space can be.

 

[Crack The Sky]

Regarding operation in Class B airspace for recreational (not Part 107) flying...

For all the lengthy discussion of Class B airports I have been unable to find any written prohibition against recreational drone flying within Class B airspace under 400', beyond the usual 5-mile notification process. DJI has created no-fly zones close (1-2 miles) of certain Class B airports, and while I'm not disputing the value of these I'm still wondering where they came from in terms of a regulatory standpoint? I would not likely choose to fly within a mile or two of any airport but can someone point me to a regulation that says I cannot fly for purely recreational purposes at low altitude and, say, 4 miles from a Class B airport and within Class B airspace? (with notification of course.)

Thanks

Taken directly from:
Airspace Restrictions
"Recreational operators are required to give notice for flights within five miles of an airport to both the airport operator and air traffic control tower, if the airport has a tower. However, recreational operations are not permitted in Class B airspace around most major airports without specific air traffic permission and coordination.

 

[smiller]

Taken directly from:
Airspace Restrictions
"Recreational operators are required to give notice for flights within five miles of an airport to both the airport operator and air traffic control tower, if the airport has a tower. However, recreational operations are not permitted in Class B airspace around most major airports without specific air traffic permission and coordination.

Yes, understood, as I described in post #9 above. But it sure would be nice if there was a single official page that clearly and concisely described all restrictions so operators wouldn't have to sift through multiple web pages and sets of Federal regulations.

 

[Crack The Sky]

Yes, I linked to that in post #9 above.

Sorry, I just stumbled upon your question and really did not read any further. I would love to know what they mean by "Most major airports". I have been dealing with the FAA for 40 years and from my experience, every question they answer, creates (2) more questions.

 

[smiller]

I have been dealing with the FAA for 40 years and from my experience, every question they answer, creates (2) more questions.

Yep. Nebulous phrases like 'most major airports' is a good example of avoiding a direct answer to the question, and in doing so only sowing more confusion.

 

[sar104]

Sorry, I just stumbled upon your question and really did not read any further. I would love to know what they mean by "Most major airports". I have been dealing with the FAA for 40 years and from my experience, every question they answer, creates (2) more questions.

I took that to be a badly worded sentence meaning that the requirement applies to the Class B airspace that exists around most major airports, rather than that the requirement applies to most of the Class B airspace around major airports.

 

[smiller]

Well look at it this way, if they were clear then how could we have all the fun threads where we debate the meaning of a regulation over 12 pages?

 

[Crack The Sky]

I took that to be a badly worded sentence meaning that the requirement applies to the Class B airspace that exists around most major airports, rather than that the requirement applies to most of the Class B airspace around major airports.

By Jimminy! I think you are correct. I never looked at it that way. Good work. Gold Star for you in FAA Speak!

 

[Crack The Sky]

Well look at it this way, if they were clear then how could we have all the fun threads where we debate the meaning of a regulation over 12 pages?

See, that is the very definition of a positive attitude! A hat tip to you!

 

[daveisim]

Well look at it this way, if they were clear then how could we have all the fun threads where we debate the meaning of a regulation over 12 pages?

[ The following is written as if we are in Debate Club, in no way do I endorse endangering the NAS. ]

Ah yes. And still, I'd like to see this Class B Recreational "Rule" in a F.A.R. or NOTAM or Federal Register or even a AC (Advisory Circular). But no, I've never seen it, only on a web page. And only one page. If you're going to have a rule, make it official, make is specific. Otherwise it's just advice. Just like the "advice" of not flying higher than 400'. Which we all know, or should by now, is not a rule.

Why isn't it an actual 'Rule'? Because, AFIAK, Public Law 336 limits the FAA from making rules for recreational UAS's.

Going one step further, PL336 specifies you to follow a CBO (Community Based Organization) rules. One of which is the AMA (hey - I'd like to start a CBO, who wants to join?). The AMA does NOT have a rule about Class B, only notifying and not getting in the way of other aircraft.

Show me where I'm wrong. Really. I'm wanting someone to give me an actual rule or even a subtle inference. I proclaim that flying my UAS at 10 feet AGL just outside of LAX property is not illegal. If you think different, quote chapter and verse, the actual law.

The chance of a fly away is the same as outside the Class B but near the approach path into LAX. Actually the same as everywhere. l've seen the planes all in a line coming in - and know the approach paths as I'm a FAA certified current pilot and fly there and live there part time.

But until there is a F.A.R / NOTAM / Federal Register / etc - ie, something official is published, then no, there is no RULE of recreational UAS flying in Class B. I repeat: Show me where I'm wrong.

[ /end Debate Club scenario]

BTW, as most will see on my other posts here, I do follow the rules and am an advocate of them. All of them, both for recreational and Part 107.