Recreational... Commercial... I really hope the FAA addresses this soon... Or, am I off base?
- Thread starter ChaseB
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Ok let's take the tone of this thread down a couple of notches. I've cleaned up some comments and sent some "suggestions" to members here via PM.
No offense was taken. I was actually thrilled at your passion on the subject. It felt to me that it came from one who abides by the law.
Will this new rule have any positive effect in regards to flying over National Parks or is that still a no no?
The rule in question is about operating (takeoff and landing) on NPS land, not overflying NPS land, but this will have no effect at all, since this is about FAA registration of model aircraft, and nothing to do with other agencies regulating where you can operate your model aircraft.
In my experience, I contact local airports and helipads. Most helipad operators say the helicopters fly well above 500' until they get directly over the helipad. Then they come down vertically. The local operations people make an agreement that if I stay outside of their property line and keep under 400', I don't need to register with them every time I want to fly near them. When near airports, I do call the flight operations or control tower people and get an agreement with them. Most want me to notify them in advance of my intended flight so they can agree to release a specific date/time/duration of my flight plan. I also need to release my cell phone number.
It is a burden to have to make so many specific agreements, but most authorities make every effort to be reasonable if you make the effort to engage them ... before flying.
It is a burden to have to make so many specific agreements, but most authorities make every effort to be reasonable if you make the effort to engage them ... before flying.
Bottom line to the original post and a few other comments: according to Jason Schappert of remotepilot101.com, once a pilot is certified under Part 107 he can never again fly under hobbyist rules and must follow all Part 107 rules in all flight. That's just the way the FAA currently has it set up.
That's contrary to several statements that I've seen from the FAA and, additionally, not written anywhere in Part 107, Part 101 or any of the interpretations put out by the FAA that I'm aware of. It's a somewhat important point so do you have an FAA reference for that interpretation, other than just an opinion from Schappert?
N017RW
Premium Pilot
Don't know what Mr. Schappert said but it seems you are misunderstanding something.
Operation of ANY civil small unmanned aircraft systems (sUAS) within the United States are subject to §107 by default. There are three exceptions:
Air carrier operations,
Hobby/Recrearional operation of model aircraft under §101,
Operation under the provisions of a 333 exemption.
This is found in 14 CFR 107.
However, any inappropriate flight under 101 could jeopardize your 107 if you have one.
Sorry, he is just plain wrong here. Recently sent this question to the FAA: "I have my Part 107 certificate and my sUAS is registered. I know that I can still fly under the hobby rules if I decide that a flight will not be commercial and then follow those recommendations. Can I also fly this same bird under the 'hobby flier' rules?" and received this reply from the FAA sUAS Integration Office: "Thank you for your inquiry. Yes you can, provided you follow all the hobby requirements when flying for hobby purposes -- including contacting all airports within five miles of the area of operation, maintaining visual line-of-sight at all times, and giving way to manned aircraft."
N017RW
Premium Pilot
Agree, second hand info - My apologies to Mr. Schappert. But bottom line is that we can still fly as a hobby flier when we want to. Just like a commercial pilot can go for a joyride anytime and fly by the GA rules.
N017RW
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Hello, All:
Hope all is well.
Let me add to the title of this thread that I hope the FAA addresses this based on the assumption I'm not completely off base here...
I’ll preface with I obtained my FAA sUAS Remote Pilot license on day two after Part 107 testing began but haven’t done much with it since... I have full-time job but obtained the license to: (a) have it as a legitimate added commercial service to my side LLC business; (b) become a responsible, knowledgeable, and safe remote pilot; (c), and, essentially, do it legitimately in an effort to contribute to help improve support for all of us that are wanting to do things the right way and gain respect in the aviation industry / community...
I’ve searched high and low throughout different forums and have made several contacts for answers to a few things I’m trying to clarify; however, the responses are ambiguous, and I understand from the evolving industry perspective… There’s not a lot of black-and-white with the FAA regulations… I know none of that is a revelation…
Anyway, I’ve never actually posted my burning questions / thoughts / concerns in regard to the following on a forum, so here goes… I appreciate your feedback and insight in advance…
PREFACE
Yes, the following is repetitive and verbose, but I’m genuinely trying to seek clarification and engage in dialogue… And, I'm confident these are burning questions / concerns for many who have their FAA sUAS Remote Pilot license... When it comes to being a licensed FAA sUAS Remote Pilot, a "use common sense" response to the items below isn't applicable...
It's important that I reiterate, as mentioned, “one” of the reasons I obtained my FAA sUAS Remote Pilot license was to simply have the OPTION to operate for commercial purposes for my SIDE LLC business in the event a commercial opportunity or need presented itself… From the beginning, I never intended to actively pursue (key words - "actively pursue") aerial business…
Ultimately, the “majority” of the time I just want to fly for fun, recreationally…
THE SCENARIO:
I am visiting family in the Denver, Colorado, metropolitan area and want to go to a large park / grass field at a nearby elementary or middle school (school is out; the school administration has no issues with it, etc; assume there’s no one there and I wouldn’t be flying over homes, people, etc. etc. etc.), and fly my newly acquired DJI Mavic Pro around the field "recreationally" for “fun” with an altitude no higher than a few feet above the tree-line (let’s say <=50 feet), and well within the visual line-of-sight (let's say a distance of 500-700 feet away)… And, while I’m here I may want to do this a few times "spontaneously"…
Again, key items: Fly for “fun”, altitude <= 50ft; open space; well within visual line-of-sight (500-700 feet away); I’m from out-of-state visiting family in the Denver, Colorado, metropolitan area.
The obvious: As you can imagine with any large metropolitan area, the sectional chart looks like a three-year-old got a hold of a box of crayons and scribbled and colored across every square inch.
Contained within the five-mile radius of where my family lives, and where I want to fly "recreationally," there is an Air Force base, several heliports, and a private airport... And, the area falls in Class D airspace...
I understand airspace classification, etc. but, on a side note, one can't argue the fact that a major metropolitan area on a sectional chart can be very overwhelming and confusing…
And, to address it early, yes, as a licensed sUAS Remote Pilot, I understand and support that I am held to a higher standard - even when flying recreationally... (Now, here come the "buts")...
However, ultimately, I want to open up dialogue and get clarity / feedback around my "recreational" scenario above and below.... Yes, it's obvious I’m beating a dead horse; but I'm doing so with legitimate cause... I think it becomes blatantly clear about what I’m struggling with and I absolutely cannot be the only one…
THE CONFUSION / ISSUES / CONCERNS:
- There are obviously HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of “recreational” drone owners throughout the world... Thousands across the United States.... In the Denver, Colorado, metropolitan area alone, I'm confident there are thousands of recreational drone owners…
- So, using the example, again where every square inch of a metropolitan area is covered with CONTROLLED airspace, based on the FAA “recreational” regulations, the operators of ALL of those “recreational” drones — who are simply flying "recreationally" in a park (make the assumption there are no local drone ordinances, etc.), below tree level or a few feet above tree level, and within visual line-of-sight where NO commercial / private aircraft / helicopter would be flying at that altitude, etc. — are required to contact / notify ALL of the control towers for EVERY airport and heliport within five miles… and, in advance???
- Again, in the scenario above where my family lives and where I want to fly “recreationally,” there is an Air Force base, three heliports, a private airport... Class D airspace... I, nor have any of my family, ever seen helicopters (medical or military) or any other aircraft flying above residential rooftops or open space less than 500ft.... The FAA would REALLY require that I contact / notify those FIVE different control towers even though, again, I would be flying “recreationally,” in a park / open space, <= 50ft in altitude, within visual line-of-sight, etc. etc. etc. etc.?
- Then, add to that, as a licensed FAA sUAS Remote Pilot and being held to a higher standard, having to "consider" (not required but again think of the key word "higher standard") completing a pre-flight checklist, document weather, etc. etc. etc., again, when just wanting to fly my DJI Mavic Pro at random "recreationally" for fun in a park/open space for 30 minutes, below 50ft in altitude, within visual line-of-sight, etc. etc… Again, I respect the rules... ... ... .... But, on the recreational side, specifically using my scenario above??? ... ... ... ... Well... ... That’s absurd…
Thoughts? Am I off base entirely? Did something in my Part 107 education slip in one ear and out of the other? PLEASE (no, really, please) tell me I’m missing something and wrote this all for nothing…
- Lastly, to top it off, let me add the commercial operation perspective to that scenario into the mix… The SAME scenario except a commercial situation where a realtor wants me to shoot video of a house next to the same park where I want to fly recreationally… Make the assumption I’m approved to operate my business in the state… I would simply be capturing footage flying around and over the house no higher than 50 feet in altitude and well within visual line-of-sight… Based on the FAA commercial regulations, because I would want to operate commercially and the home is in “controlled” airspace, I would actually have to request / submit an FAA Airspace Waiver online, which suggests a 90-day (yes, NINETY) lead time… Again, think about the scenario… Again… And, again… Think about it one more time... Ok... No aircraft would be flying that low over a home… Less than 50ft altitude… Visual line-of-sight… Simply capturing footage of a home… You have to tell the realtor that you can absolutely get that footage for them and for the other 30 homes they have listed across the entire metropolitan area no problem and, based on where those 30 homes are located, you only have to submit 15 waivers with the FAA and “hopefully” none will get kicked back/rejected and they’ll all get approved between 30 - 90 days… But, yes, Mr./Mrs. Realtor, I understand you are a realtor and you need to add this to your listing now… Yes, I know we potentially won’t even be flying above the roof on any of those properties… But, don’t worry… Hang tight for 30-90 days… ... ... ... ... Absurd…
- Commercial scenarios related to flying in controlled airspace above 400 feet, flying at night, flying over people, etc? In those types of scenarios, yes, I support the FAA authorization / waiver requirement… And, those same scenarios being prohibited recreationally, yes, I support that... I logically get that… But for commercial scenarios relating to flying at VERY low altitude (<=50ft) to capture footage for a realtor or a car dealership, etc… ... .... Absurd…
You are NOT off base. The answer to Every Bullet Point Per the FAA is NO you CANNOT fly in any Class D airspace of God forbid Class C or B without a COW Certificate of Waiver. The FAA suggests you request this COW 90 days in advance. It's a clear as a bell, in a clear blue sky, that's the legal answer. ( BTW I'm not a lawyer I'm a private Pilot since 1987 learned at PHX Sky Harbor, and now studying for my part 107 exam. NOW does that make sense???? NOOOOOOO What is happening in reality is guys are calling the tower and letting them know hi my name is John Doe, flying sUAS N686US at 3,8 miles DME from your airport on a 128 degree bearing from 2-3 pm local at 300" and below in a 1 NM Radius, doing roof inspections etc or just hobby flying. I heard a call just like that and the controller said thanks and have fun! NOW the FAA is not stupid they know people are doing this, and they are working hard and fast on all of this BUT Legally your bullet points are right on. The Heliport thing drives me crazy. I did live in SW Houston and in the B4Ufly app they had a heliport listed that was torn down about 5 years ago. It was an urgent care and the building is not gone. I drove by it myself and asked a Local Police Officer who is a Phantom 4 owner if the Heliport still existed and he said it's been gone forever. In the end it's your call, just remember as PIC the buck stops with you. If ANYTHING happens they'll come looking for you. I know this as a private Pilot. Don't get me wrong they are really generally nice folks and really try an help new Pilots, but just know the law. Also Make sure you have a 3 ring binder with all your docuention in it whenever you go fly in case you get ramp checked. Best of luck! BTW Google Earth is a great tool to measure distances from and bearing from any airport. That's how I determine my best ares to fly and also what I use to report to the tower if I'm going to be inside the 5 mile ring.
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sar104 is spot on, (as always).
" It looks like you understand the rules fine, but just don't like them.
Yes - you can fly recreationally at that location but you are required to notify all airports/heliports within 5 miles. You would need a waiver to do commercial work in the Class D airspace."
It's very simple; follow the rules that are in place. I've followed every FAA rule for over 40 years. It's really not hard, if you love it and enjoy doing your very best at everything you take on.
If it's a hassle for you, and you have to put that much brain power into hashing it out every time you want to fly, and I mean no disrespect; I suggest you just sell the drone. Turn you're Part 107 Cert in to the FAA, and be done with it. You'll be happier.
Frankly, after a lifetime of flying airplanes, for me flying drones is boring.
I would not think of taking it out to fly recreationally.
And truthfully, virtually every second of footage shot from a drone I have ever seen posted is boring.
Reading the comments that are then posted, raving about the footage, are even worse then watching the footage itself.
"Great work Dude", Epic",.....
And then there is the posting Titles:
"Look how I hit the tree"
"Check out the rippin moves as I smash into rock wall I thought I could clear, in some National Park".
"Crashed my drone today",
And the sincere and caring comments:
"I'm really sorry dude, that's a bummer, but at least you got some bitcXXin footage"
Boring.
The drone is the Brownie camera for this generation. Every swinging
Boring.
The FAA's lax approach to allowing people into the airspace who know nothing, and have nothing but contempt for the Regulations, after generations of knowledgeable, respectful pilots paved the way, is nothing short of a travesty. A large percentage of those who are flying drones flaunt their contempt for the law by having the audacity to post their latest criminal exploit for the world to see.
In a remarkably short time the entire wonder of semi-autonomous flight has turned into a junk show.
Some narrow fields where the drone is invaluable, will emerge and strengthen, as they should.
Recreational use? Very bad idea and it should be banned quickly, and completely.
Get out ahead of the curve and sell your drone. It was a nice idea, that did not work.
With all due respect and I do agree with some of your comments about the idiots posting their illegal flights, the FAA is taking this serious and you won't pass the test if your not a pilot without doing a fair amount of studying. I also think it's going to be far more than 1 or two industries that these things take over. This is a game changer like it or not. Who cares anyway. I'm a Pilot like you and if they want to play at 400 feet and below let them. The R/C world has been around for years and that' what this will eventually turn into. The FAA will nail a few hobbyists hard, put a big scare in people and then those that respect aviation and follow the law will rise and make money. The owner of DJI is the world's first Drone Billionaire at 32. This is NOT a fad, just like the PC was not a fad. There are simply too many uses for it. Search and rescue, delivering say epi pens to someone in a remote area, the flying defibrillator drone, dropping a flotation device on a drowning person, and I've not even begun to get into agriculture, inspection or movie making. but I don't disagree with about half of your comments so I'm not trying to start an argument
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