My thoughts on breaking the rules.

[dgd3]

Hi everyone, Just wanted to express some thoughts on much of what I've been reading lately. I'm a new P4P owner and almost at a point where I'm sorry that I invested the money into this hobby because of what may come in the future. First off, this site has been great and everyone has been so helpful whenever you have a technical issue or can't figure something out. What is bugging me is that many are posting things they have done or want to try and do and they know it's against the rules or they know it's pushing the issue. For example this guy.
Anyone thought about doing this....
Not saying he did it, but obviously the thought is in his mind. People wanting to fly near airports, break the 400 ft rule, flying over events and stadiums and crowds etc.... The list goes on. There are millions of areas you can fly, be safe and not either get in trouble or piss someone off. What this is creating is an anger towards drones from the general public and worse is to make the FAA create more rules, regulations and get things to a point where you won't be able to fly anywhere other than your back yard. I work in aviation and have had a close call in a helicopter where some idiot with a drone was well within the restricted airspace near the airport and well over 400 ft. Then, you see people post their illegal flights they have done and then wine when law enforcement comes and takes their equipment and slaps them with huge FAA fines etc. well hello, you deserve what's coming to you. I'm just asking that we all think first so what hopefully has been a fun hobby so far doesn't get ruined. Would gladly like to hear anyone else's thoughts.

I've flown and fly in small rural communities where I live/lived. My neighbors and local school encourage me to fly. The local federal police members are cool with it as long as they receive no complaints. (Their and other's kids love it) I'm in an aerial photography friendly environment and use common sense along with all the data available at the time to fly safely as defined by my neighbors.

 

[Racklefratz]

I see several folks have cited the 400' altitude rule and that it's not actually a rule. ... 400' from what base? I can stand on the street and get up to 400', and I doubt I'd worry. Or I could go to the top of Mt. Cheaha here in Alabama that's 6000' above sea level, and fly up an additional 400'. Would that get me in trouble?

The expectation is that we not only read the FAA rules, we're also expected to understand them. The restriction is 400' AGL, as in Above Ground Level. It's a common aeronautical acronym. That means 400' above ground level from WHATEVER the sea level elevation is at any given point.

If the elevation at ground level at some location is 10,000' above mean sea level (MSL), then you're not allowed to fly your drone above 10,400' MSL, which translates to 400' AGL at that point. You may not have any way to determine MSL altitude of your drone, but you DO have a way to know its altitude above the ground (AGL). Same restriction goes for any other point on the ground, regardless of it's elevation above sea level.

 

[kirk2579]

Please quote the source of this. I don't think the FAA has ever fined someone relying on evidence from a video posted online. Also, the FAA does not confiscate equipment. If you aware of an example of this, then please post the cite.

I get a weekly summary of the FAA enforcement letters (letter of proposed enforcement action), and I have yet to see even one quote a hobby UAS or confiscation. Not one.

have not seen you in a long while!

 

[Racklefratz]

Rules? Safety or Slavery
Most regulations are based on fear.

No, in the US, most regulations are for the purpose of creating order out of potential chaos. In certain activities, if everyone were permitted to just "do their own thing", no one would ever know what to expect, and there would be nasty consequences all the time, for everyone involved. Regulations are also to prevent people from doing things that would threaten the public.

Fear of what "might" happen.

Exactly. There are regulations prescribing acceptable ways of doing certain things, and others prohibiting certain things. Without them, aircraft would be zooming around the sky out of control, with mid-airs and other mayhem everywhere you looked. Be thankful for the regulations preventing that.

This is so true with this new technology. We have been found guilty before any crime has been committed. All of us are forced to face severe consequences every time we fly.

What convictions have you been "found guilty" of? Cite them. And flying your drone isn't the only activity where you face consequences if you screw up. Ever drive? Ever think about robbing a bank? There's consequences for that.

And we can be found guilty not because someone was harmed, but because of a infinitesimally small chance that it might happen. These are not Rules to respect.

Laws and government regulations aren't optional. You don't have the privilege to choose which ones you'll obey and which ones you'll ignore. Do so at your peril; you'll sooner or later get to enjoy some of those "consequences" you're so worried about.

Someone said, '"Laws should fit a Man like a Loose Suit of Clothes." Meaning, we should feel comfortable with the Rules we all agree too. We are suppose to be "Innocent until proven Guilty," in this country. Walk through any of the Hundreds of Veteran's Cemeteries. What did they all die for? Freedom? Do you feel Free?

Go live in N Korea, Cuba, China, or somewhere else like those coveted and much sought-after destinations. Then come back and let us know if you feel free here in the USA. I could care less what "someone" said, everyone has opinions. But laws are the way society ensures people behave in ways that are consistent with its values. You can like them or not, but if you cherry-pick and choose to comply with only the ones you think are "fair", there will eventually be "consequences". That's real life, and that's how it is.

It's too bad that some of today's parents fail so miserably in teaching their children the difference between right and wrong, and some sense of decent values, since without this, we end up with a bunch of little self-styled anarchists who have never heard the word "No", with no respect for authority, and an attitude of "I'll do whatever I want, and screw you if you don't like it", instead of respectful, thoughtful and productive members of society.

 

[jwmcgrath]

Bottom line in my opinion is that the government does not want drones in the hands of the general public and for several good reasons all relating to public safety and preservation.
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Bet they said the same thing about those darn horseless carriages.

While it's true that the government tries desperately to play a role in the public safety, the government is "people", and people (and their methods) are fallible, whether they are drone operators, elected officials, criminals, law abiding citizens or armchair quarterbacks.

If we blindly allow the government to tell us what to do, without ever questioning or challenging anything, the US and Canada and Australia and half the rest of the world would be British Colonies.

We are never going to, nor should we ever try to quell innovation, but there are always going to be struggles with how to balance it in life. If teleportation replaces air transportation no one will give a crap how many drones are in the air or what height they fly at.

I want to go to space too... can I launch a rocket from my back yard?


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[Racklefratz]

If we blindly allow the government to tell us what to do, without ever questioning or challenging anything, the US and Canada and Australia and half the rest of the world would be British Colonies.

Possibly. But OTOH, if we start challenging anything we consider a personal inconvenience, we end up with chaos and anarchy. There are some things we simply have to accept and abide by if we expect an orderly, decent society and safety where we live and work.

 

[jwmcgrath]

Possibly. But OTOH, if we start challenging anything we consider a personal inconvenience, we end up with chaos and anarchy. There are some things we simply have to accept and abide by if we expect an orderly, decent society and safety where we live and work.

Agreed.

That's where the "always going to struggle with finding the balance" part comes from.


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[jwmcgrath]

And for that matter, I think you could take a handful of people from a collection of forums and make better, more insightful, conscientious and thoughtful politicians out of them than some of the ones we actually have.


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[NorthWestPassage]

After thinking about this here is my solution. It should be a law that you do have to have a "license" and it should be tied to your drivers license and car insurance. Fines and points go against your license and insurance and criminal penalties for those who hurt people. It would really codify the rules (which FAA would authorize local authorities to police) and let you know in advance what it takes to fly. To young to drive, you have to be under your parents polices and have the same training - what you do you and your parents are liable for. Such rules now apply in many states for boats, for me no difference.

 

[Neon Euc]

How many rules have DJI them self's have broken? Lots. I seen ads of their products filming a rally car in the snow with people watching. I seen ads if them flying along a beech with lots of people. To me I say "**** it" and no before you ask.... I'm not trying to flame the fire here. I wont fly near an airport but to me, if I have a drone I will use it to it's full advantage. If the UK government don't like me flying 500metres then they should regulate the firmware by not letting be programmed to fly that high.
I paid good money for my drone, as long as I dont piss people off, hurt people, invade their privacy then I will do what the hell I want. Planes fall out the sky and kill people, cars can fail on brakes and kill people... Yet the government still allows them to be used. Why? Money in it for them. No money in it for them with drones tho. Tough... My drone, I fly at peek altitude. Like I said I'm miles away from the airport and way below the planes flight paths so yes... I will fly at 500 metres.

"And here comes to kill joys to have a go at me"

[emoji39][emoji12]

Neon Euc

 

[joet]

Unless you're flying as a licensed UAV pilot under commercial rules mot are breaking the airport manager permission law. Look at a map of the US, mostly covered shaded areas that are within a five mile radius of any airport.

...Which would make said person neither ignorant of the law or a scofflaw. That's not the problem. The problem is those who either don't educate themselves on the law or who ignore it.

 

[joet]

How many rules have DJI them self's have broken? Lots. I seen ads of their products filming a rally car in the snow with people watching. I seen ads if them flying along a beech with lots of people. To me I say "**** it" and no before you ask.... I'm not trying to flame the fire here. I wont fly near an airport but to me, if I have a drone I will use it to it's full advantage. If the UK government don't like me flying 500metres then they should regulate the firmware by not letting be programmed to fly that high.
I paid good money for my drone, as long as I dont piss people off, hurt people, invade their privacy then I will do what the hell I want. Planes fall out the sky and kill people, cars can fail on brakes and kill people... Yet the government still allows them to be used. Why? Money in it for them. No money in it for them with drones tho. Tough... My drone, I fly at peek altitude. Like I said I'm miles away from the airport and way below the planes flight paths so yes... I will fly at 500 metres.

"And here comes to kill joys to have a go at me"

[emoji39][emoji12]

Neon Euc

Your objection makes no sense. DJI might be producing their ads in countries where such activity is legal. As for programming the firmware to eliminate prohibited behavior in a given jurisdiction, that's more problematic than you'd think. Just take the US as an example: Depending under which rules I fly under and which I secured a waiver for, there's nearly a dozen rules that may or may not apply to me on any given flight - how on earth would you account for all those possibilities? Now examine the laws for every jurisdiction on earth... Would you ask the same of a car manufacturer? My car shouldn't go over 75mph because I am in Florida, but in New York, the limit is 55mph.. Has nothing to do with money and everything to do with an onerous burden on the manufacturer. Would you prefer that DJI be required to do so and simply decide to exit the drone market because compliance was too difficult versus just having people follow the damned law?

 

[BadRad]

I'm not sure any of that will happen ... what would happen, however, is that prices will go up. Follow the money. When anything is regulated, when safety out politicizes common sense and mfg are forced to add more and more technology, productive or not, it will cost more. That goes direct to your pocketbook. Fly like an idiot and you will pay the price, one way or another.

 

[Neon Euc]

Your objection makes no sense. DJI might be producing their ads in countries where such activity is legal. As for programming the firmware to eliminate prohibited behavior in a given jurisdiction, that's more problematic than you'd think. Just take the US as an example: Depending under which rules I fly under and which I secured a waiver for, there's nearly a dozen rules that may or may not apply to me on any given flight - how on earth would you account for all those possibilities? Now examine the laws for every jurisdiction on earth... Would you ask the same of a car manufacturer? My car shouldn't go over 75mph because I am in Florida, but in New York, the limit is 55mph.. Has nothing to do with money and everything to do with an onerous burden on the manufacturer. Would you prefer that DJI be required to do so and simply decide to exit the drone market because compliance was too difficult versus just having people follow the damned law?

It's a really simple procedure. When you hook the drone up and turn it on a software patch will be downloaded giving the right altitude your allowed to fly based on GPS depending on the country that your in. You telling me that's difficult to do?

Neon Euc

 

[jwmcgrath]

Would you prefer that DJI be required to do so and simply decide to exit the drone market because compliance was too difficult versus just having people follow the damned law?

SO funny that you just said that because I was thinking that very thing just now... That the more difficult it is for the politicians to put their spin on what they think is "safe and acceptable", the more prohibitive the activity will become, and the harder it will be for manufacturers to comply... that or the more restricted the hobby becomes, to the point the manufacturer gets out, or the hobbyists do.

THAT is what I'm afraid of.


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[AlecW]

I want to go to space too... can I launch a rocket from my back yard?

As long as you keep it under 400 feet AGL

 

[jwmcgrath]

It's a really simple procedure. When you hook the drone up and turn it on a software patch will be downloaded giving the right altitude your allowed to fly based on GPS depending on the country that your in. You telling me that's difficult to do?

Neon Euc

Ok, NOW the killjoys are going to have a go at you!
[emoji23]

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[Tenly]

It's a really simple procedure. When you hook the drone up and turn it on a software patch will be downloaded giving the right altitude your allowed to fly based on GPS depending on the country that your in. You telling me that's difficult to do?

Neon Euc

Yeah - and guns should have optical sensors that scan the target and determine if it's a human or not - and if it is a human - they should refuse to fire... That's completely possible with today's technology but manufacturers are in no way obligated to do it.

At the end of the day - YOU are responsible for your actions - not the manufacturer that produced the drone or gun. Your arguments are the worst I've ever heard for why you feel justified in breaking the law. Essentially you're saying that "because it's possible to do, I should be allowed to do it" and you're trying to laughably pass-the-buck to the person or company that made it possible for you to break the law.

I don't agree with all the rules in my jurisdiction - and sometimes I choose to ignore some of the ones which don't pose any danger to others. That's my decision and I'm prepared for the consequences of those decisions if they occur some day.

You should be too. It would be a good laugh listening to you try to defend your actions in court - telling the judge it's not your fault, it's DJI's fault...


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[Neon Euc]

Yeah - and guns should have optical sensors that scan the target and determine if it's a human or not - and if it is a human - they should refuse to fire... That's completely possible with today's technology but manufacturers are in no way obligated to do it.

At the end of the day - YOU are responsible for your actions - not the manufacturer that produced the drone or gun. Your arguments are the worst I've ever heard for why you feel justified in breaking the law. Essentially you're saying that "because it's possible to do, I should be allowed to do it" and you're trying to laughably pass-the-buck to the person or company that made it possible for you to break the law.

I don't agree with all the rules in my jurisdiction - and sometimes I choose to ignore some of the ones which don't pose any danger to others. That's my decision and I'm prepared for the consequences of those decisions if they occur some day.

You should be too. It would be a good laugh listening to you try to defend your actions in court - telling the judge it's not your fault, it's DJI's fault...


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So if you re-read what I also said you might learn that

1) I fly miles away from an airport
2) I fly way below the flight paths of planes over head
3) I fly out of the way where I don't upset people....


So ERM.... Tell me again what I'm doing wrong????

Neon Euc

 

[Neon Euc]

Ok, NOW the killjoys are going to have a go at you!
[emoji23]

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Haha already started [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

Neon Euc