Illegal to fly under 400 foot?

He also did not stop me from flying. This was a discussion I had with him after the fact. I did tell him I was flying well over 100 foot and doing nothing wrong.


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He also did not stop me from flying. This was a discussion I had with him after the fact. I did tell him I was flying well over 100 foot and doing nothing wrong.


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I'll stand by my initial impression based on your description of the events. The guy sounds like he's used to being the King of the town. Make sure you have some way to properly document (video/audio) your personal space any time you fly. Cameras are the great equalizer and really tend to put bullies in their place.
 
Careful to not bit the hand or you may find a cop at every corner you turn with a tickets booked. Don't tork off the chief....
 
Careful to not bit the hand or you may find a cop at every corner you turn with a tickets booked. Don't tork off the chief....

Just the fact that we have to actually worry about that says a lot about the state of policing, and the mentality of those charged with protecting and serving.
 
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I never said he "would" charge me, he claims he could, because I was flying under 400 foot.
This has gone in every direction when my real question was in reference to property owners owning the airspace over their property to 400 for which he claims has already been decided by the Supreme Court.


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Well, he's wrong. I don't think this has actually been resolved yet though, and he can make your life miserable in the meantime while it gets sorted out.
 
The FAA actually has guidelines for local law enforcement concerning drones. You can find a copy on the FAA's website (or see attached file). Secure a copy, meet the Chief for coffee and give it to him so he has "guidance" when training his people. Be diplomatic. That garbage he was giving you is just that, garbage. If you want to take it a step further, give a copy to the city attorney. Your Chief is using the "English common law" standard of 400' above person's property, It is not being correctly applied. Also, Stalking must be "more than once" to be applicable, such as maybe taking pics through someones window, on several occasions, etc. Various states and communities may have ordinances in place concerning dones but nothing trumps federal statute or regulations. As a retired Police Captain, I should know the last thing the Chief wants to hear is "Hi Chief, I'm agent "place name here" of the FBI I'd like to talk to you a minute about a complaint my office has received" ......... (almost as bad as a 60 minutes crew showing up unannounced).
 

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Canada is a bit slow in the drone regulations. A few years ago the government stated that the "recommended" max height for non-commercial drones is 300 feet. Yet, it's not really enforced as cops are equipped with speed radar, not height radar. :)
 
Interesting that you mentioned Canada. I was watching the "National" a cpl weeks back and they were talking about some committee in Parliament taking up the drone question. (I watch Canadian TV sometimes).
 
Airspace is the sole jurisdiction of the FAA. Federal preemption prohibits a city, state or municipality from regulating airspace although many have enacted laws despite this. FAA regulations DO NOT protect you from local privacy and endangerment laws.

Most LEOs do not understand much of what I've just written.
you don't argue the ones with the gun, many minority young did and were in the headline news,
 
The FAA actually has guidelines for local law enforcement concerning drones. You can find a copy on the FAA's website (or see attached file). Secure a copy, meet the Chief for coffee and give it to him so he has "guidance" when training his people. Be diplomatic. That garbage he was giving you is just that, garbage. If you want to take it a step further, give a copy to the city attorney. Your Chief is using the "English common law" standard of 400' above person's property, It is not being correctly applied. Also, Stalking must be "more than once" to be applicable, such as maybe taking pics through someones window, on several occasions, etc. Various states and communities may have ordinances in place concerning dones but nothing trumps federal statute or regulations. As a retired Police Captain, I should know the last thing the Chief wants to hear is "Hi Chief, I'm agent "place name here" of the FBI I'd like to talk to you a minute about a complaint my office has received" ......... (almost as bad as a 60 minutes crew showing up unannounced).


Thanks for posting that LEO guidance form. But what a bunch of crap. Most states are not "stop and identify". That means, if a cop wants to know who you are, they can ask, but you can keep right on walking. They can only demand identification if they have reasonable articulable suspicion (RAS) that you are about to commit, are currently committing, or have committed a crime.

This form instructs LEOs to begin an interrogation/investigation as soon as they see you flying a drone. Sure, it says if "you suspect unsafe or unauthorized operation"... But how does a LEO suspect a drone is unauthorized (i.e. not registered) if all he can see is the operator? In other words, in order to initiate contact, the LEO simply has to claim he suspects the operator is not registered.

This would be like a cop pulling someone over at random to ask them to produce a driver's license. That is not legal. The stop must be due to an existing violation (or RAS). Apparently, when flying a drone (responsibly and safely), the 4th Amendment doesn't apply.
 
I've posted this before. Probable Cause is whatever the on-scene officer deems it is for whatever situation he is in. Yes, one cannot be stopped without P.C., but I can find all kinds of P.C. to contact you if I wish to do so, and every one of them will be held valid in a court of law. As far as a drone goes, all I would have to state was there were other people, in proximity, who might be injured if it went out of control. Is it a BS excuse? Absolutely. But is it PC for the contact? It would be in the eyes of the court. All I have to do is to make it a public safety issue and RAS flies right out the window. 99% of LEO's are just curious and want to look at your setup. Be polite, explain it to them, show them how everything works, and they'll happily watch you fly. The last LEO I took the time to show all my stuff to, went over to Best Buy and bought one. Turns out he was just curious when he approached me. Of course me being a retired LEO with some rank didn't hurt any. We wouldn't have ended up with Federal Guidelines and FAA intervention of idiots wouldn't continually insist on trying to have their drones sucked into a jet engine at 2,000' AGL.
 
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Not necessarily so, as the airspace classifications are per treaty and law. Class G airspace (starting at the ground) is uncontrolled, so the FAA can never really "own" it, regulate it or place restrictions on it (it would then be a different class of airspace if they did). There are areas such as around airports and such where other classes of airspace extend to the ground that the FAA does "own".

I agree with you as well as the principles you base your post on.

My point is that things are changing. The FAA has claimed the right to "control" all airspace. The way things are headed, my concern is that the FAA will over-reach and start controlling things all the way to the ground. Registration and claiming UAVs to be "aircraft" under FAA jurisdiction has already happened. Upcoming rules have the potential to greatly increase the unintended consequences.

Just to be clear, this is a personal opinion and these issues may have been addressed authoritatively at some point in time that I'm just not aware of or missed.

As are my statements. There is so much that is unchallenged in court that opinion is all we have at this point.

But if I'm right, then the airspace above the tallest object on that property is public property, or at the very least a public easement. Either way, flight cannot be restricted by local laws as they would be preempted. Nor can photography be restricted, as it's not illegal to take a picture from the street where the camera is facing a private property.

Want more airspace, add something taller to the property! But if you stay above the private airspace of the property then there is no trespass.


I understand your position, but cannot fully agree. If the tallest object defines the limit, then above that is FAA space. Thus, you cannot add something taller without FAA permission because you are encroaching on their space. While I realize Causby is somewhat outdated, the fact is that they clearly avoided setting a hard limit on airspace ownership. The also avoided setting a minimum which was tied to the tallest object. In Causby, the planes were 18ft above the tallest object and deemed to have encroached. I am thinking that it will vary depending on circumstances. In short, what is "private" property and what is "public" airspace is far from decided.

I also agree that local laws cannot preempt FAA rules. However, trespass, privacy, etc. can all be legislated and enforced locally. They can't tell you not to fly, but they can enforce trespass laws.

Photography can and is restricted. You are correct about the public street scenario, but we will have to see where that meets the "expectation of privacy" issue. If you have secured your yard from prying eyes (trees/fence/not visible from street) you have an expectation of privacy. It remains to be seen how the courts will handle this when someone flies from a public area to an altitude high enough to see over the fence and take photos.

I completely understand that those photos at that distance will not clearly show people in the yard. That can change as cameras and technology in this area evolves. This is a whole new area, which poses some challenges. New laws and rules are going to affect the outcome of court cases like this.
 
Interesting that you mentioned Canada. I was watching the "National" a cpl weeks back and they were talking about some committee in Parliament taking up the drone question. (I watch Canadian TV sometimes).

Transport Canada is our "FAA". They put out non-commercial drone rules a few years ago which are in the graphic below. Pretty easy going as drones are not a big issue yet in Canada... but it's coming.
 

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We wouldn't have ended up with Federal Guidelines and FAA intervention of idiots wouldn't continually insist on trying to have their drones sucked into a jet engine at 2,000' AGL.

And this has happened how many times? I'm counting zero.

More like we wouldn't have FAA registration and forthcoming rules if the media stopped fear-mongering and spreading false information.

There is also the commercial aspect. As Amazon and other talk about "drone delivery" service, the feds feel compelled to jump in and find a way to tax it.
 
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And this has happened how many times? I'm counting zero.

More like we wouldn't have FAA registration and forthcoming rules if the media stopped fear-mongering and spreading false information.

There is also the commercial aspect. As Amazon and other talk about "drone delivery" service, the feds feel compelled to jump in and find a way to tax it.
I followed this thread for some time and feel it's time to forget it & move on.

Because, you seem to either want to selectively ignore, forget, or just don't want to comprehend that to fly over someone's property above 83 ft & below 400ft is not an illegal act, a crime or whatever. So long as you are NOT hovering and trying to focus on a certain subject on that property so as to assume invading their privacy.
 
I understand your position, but cannot fully agree. If the tallest object defines the limit, then above that is FAA space. Thus, you cannot add something taller without FAA permission because you are encroaching on their space.

In Causby the Supreme Court said that "The landowner owns at least as much of the space above the ground as they can occupy or use in connection with the land." One could easily construe that to mean the FAA has no say in the matter as long as you don't intrude into airspace that IS controlled. So if you live near an airport where Class E airspace extends to the ground and your property is within the Class E zone, then you might need FAA approval to erect a structure (or allow a tree to grow) higher than what's currently on the property (I don't know for sure that you do, or that if you do if it's actually enforced).

That's not to say that if you live near the airport there aren't other regulations you would need to comply with if you were building something high enough, such as a radio tower. But I can't see Causby as a limit on that. And remember that Causby was decided before airspace was classified in it's current form, so it's difficult to say how the courts would apply it now!

And don't forget, the FAA's power to regulate *most* everything that flies derives from different authority than their power to regulate airspace, and in both areas of authority their power is not absolute. They are limited by the law itself and by treaty.

I think we both agree that this is going to be a wild and bumpy ride while this makes it way thru the courts!! It'll certainly be more exciting than the Super Bowl or World Cup ever was, since it will actually matter what happens (unlike pro sports)...
 
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I've posted this before. Probable Cause is whatever the on-scene officer deems it is for whatever situation he is in. Yes, one cannot be stopped without P.C., but I can find all kinds of P.C. to contact you if I wish to do so, and every one of them will be held valid in a court of law. As far as a drone goes, all I would have to state was there were other people, in proximity, who might be injured if it went out of control. Is it a BS excuse? Absolutely. But is it PC for the contact? It would be in the eyes of the court. All I have to do is to make it a public safety issue and RAS flies right out the window. 99% of LEO's are just curious and want to look at your setup. Be polite, explain it to them, show them how everything works, and they'll happily watch you fly. The last LEO I took the time to show all my stuff to, went over to Best Buy and bought one. Turns out he was just curious when he approached me. Of course me being a retired LEO with some rank didn't hurt any. We wouldn't have ended up with Federal Guidelines and FAA intervention of idiots wouldn't continually insist on trying to have their drones sucked into a jet engine at 2,000' AGL.

Thanks for your candor, Providian. But if it's that easy for a cop to fabricate/generate/conjure up PC for any and every situation (and I believe that it is), then we are effectively no better than we were pre-Constitution, with the Red Coats who could stop/detain/search with impunity. Again, that is why it is critical for anyone who expects an interaction with LE to be equipped with and employ the use of a camera to document everything.
 
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He also did not stop me from flying. This was a discussion I had with him after the fact. I did tell him I was flying well over 100 foot and doing nothing wrong.


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I think he was just messing with you, maybe to cut down on those pesky phone calls about someone using a drone to do mind control...
 

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