Following the rules

Joined
Nov 26, 2015
Messages
46
Reaction score
11
Age
76
I was in Key West, Florida last week on our annual week in paradise and was surprised to see no less than four individuals flying their drones in the Mallory Square area during the daily sunset viewing. For those not familiar with Key West, it's a 1X4 mile island at the end of the Florida Keys and has a busy commercial airport, a Coast Guard heliport, and a Naval Air Station next door on Boca Chica Key. On most days there is a steady stream of aircraft making their final approach directly over Mallory Square so one should at least be aware that an airport is nearby. I approached a couple of these folks and asked them if they had checked the airspace restrictions ahead of time and received some answers ranging from "no" to "this area is a small sliver where you can fly". I did not ask if they were registered with the FAA as I did not want to appear too inquisitive.

Am I being a prude or should all of the responsible drone pilots out there try to educate those unaware of the rules? The attached image is a screen shot of KW from B4UFly.

 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Guillaume Tremblay
As long as they are notifying the airports and heliports, there shouldn't be a problem. Just glancing at your screen shot, if that was all class G airspace and those pilots had their 107, they could be flying there with zero notification.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jsb CA and NHABD
I was in Key West, Florida last week on our annual week in paradise and was surprised to see no less than four individuals flying their drones in the Mallory Square area during the daily sunset viewing. For those not familiar with Key West, it's a 1X4 mile island at the end of the Florida Keys and has a busy commercial airport, a Coast Guard heliport, and a Naval Air Station next door on Boca Chica Key. On most days there is a steady stream of aircraft making their final approach directly over Mallory Square so one should at least be aware that an airport is nearby. I approached a couple of these folks and asked them if they had checked the airspace restrictions ahead of time and received some answers ranging from "no" to "this area is a small sliver where you can fly". I did not ask if they were registered with the FAA as I did not want to appear too inquisitive.

Am I being a prude or should all of the responsible drone pilots out there try to educate those unaware of the rules? The attached image is a screen shot of KW from B4UFly.

B4UFly is a joke. See attached link. They are flying in Key West Navel Air Station Class D and/or Key West International Class D, except when the towers are closed. Then it would be Class E, with bottom @ 700 AGL.
As far as attempting to educate, I would leave it alone. Too many variables. If they are Part 107 they may have Authorization/Waiver, ( I doubt it). If they are Recreational and contacted the Controlling Agencies and have not been denied, then they are legal, (I doubt it). And, just from reading on here, there are people out there flying drones that claim they will punch or even shoot you, for interfering in what they perceive as their God given right to fly, legal or not.
VFRMAP - Digital Aeronautical Charts
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: NHABD and BigAl07
OK, now that I have been educated by experts, please examine the snip of the VFR chart showing the area in question. I have circled the specific spot where this took place (red circle between the group obstruction and the vortac). Also, I doubt that any of these folks had contacted anyone at any airport prior to flight but then what do I know..

 
  • Like
Reactions: ny_winemaker
OK, now that I have been educated by experts, please examine the snip of the VFR chart showing the area in question. I have circled the specific spot where this took place (red circle between the group obstruction and the vortac). Also, I doubt that any of these folks had contacted anyone at any airport prior to flight but then what do I know..

Since I now know exactly where they were, my only correction to what I said earlier would be that they are ONLY in the Key West International Class D airspace,(surface to 2500 MSL when the tower is operational), not the Key West Navel Air Station Class D also. Wow.
But, maybe they have permission/Authorization.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Since I now know exactly where they were, my only correction to what I said earlier would be that they are ONLY in the Key West International Class D airspace,(surface to 2500 MSL when the tower is operational), not the Key West Navel Air Station Class D also. Wow.
But, maybe they have permission/Authorization.

I really doubt that as they "appeared" to be hobby fliers (three Mavics and a P4P). I found this not too dated article during my search for more info and it provides a nice explanation of the Part 107 authorization process. It also illustrates that it will only get uglier.

Part 107, the Issuing of Waivers and Airspace Authorizations - Commercial UAV News
 
I really doubt that as they "appeared" to be hobby fliers (three Mavics and a P4P). I found this not too dated article during my search for more info and it provides a nice explanation of the Part 107 authorization process. It also illustrates that it will only get uglier.

Part 107, the Issuing of Waivers and Airspace Authorizations - Commercial UAV News
Oh, your not telling me anything I don't know, my friend. Ignorance, arrogance, or complacency does not go over well with the FAA. They goofed up and let the genie out of the bottle prematurely and I believe are now brainstorming on how to get the lid back on. In my humble opinion, the Part 107 Commercial Rating should have been the Part 107 Recreational Rating, and been required for all folks flying a drone that required registration, (anything over about 8 oz). Time will tell where this goes. I personally believe we are not far off from a inflight disaster, with loss of innocent lives, that should/could have been prevented.
 
Oh, your not telling me anything I don't know, my friend. Ignorance, arrogance, or complacency does not go over well with the FAA. They goofed up and let the genie out of the bottle prematurely and I believe are now brainstorming on how to get the lid back on. In my humble opinion, the Part 107 Commercial Rating should have been the Part 107 Recreational Rating, and been required for all folks flying a drone that required registration, (anything over about 8 oz). Time will tell where this goes. I personally believe we are not far off from a inflight disaster, with loss of innocent lives, that should/could have been prevented.

I agree with you completely and believe that a midair or ground fatality will happen somewhere and then the big boot of the government will come down hard on everybody. I have a commercial rotary wing and private fixed wing rating so I am not unfamiliar with airspace rules but am not current and my procedural skills are quite dusty. I'm probably going to study and test for a Part 107 to see just how much knowledge I can resurrect from my retired brain
 
I agree with you completely and believe that a midair or ground fatality will happen somewhere and then the big boot of the government will come down hard on everybody. I have a commercial rotary wing and private fixed wing rating so I am not unfamiliar with airspace rules but am not current and my procedural skills are quite dusty. I'm probably going to study and test for a Part 107 to see just how much knowledge I can resurrect from my retired brain
65 yrs old and 40 yr Comm/SEL & CFI. Also, Advanced & Instrument Ground Instructor. Took the Part 107 for fun, the week after they got going, (first week of September 2016). Depending on how many years since you have been current, meteorology terminology, & airspace classifications may be new to you. No more airport traffic areas, TCA's, ARSA's and the like. Class A,B,C,D,E, & G airspace. We'll leave the discussion on what happened to Class F, for another day! But, you know the FAA; "This page intentionally left blank!".....
Refresh on reading Area Forecast, Terminal Forecasts, METAR's, and get the airspace down if it's new to you. The actual Part 107 rules are embarrassingly simple & inadequate.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DDrake
Well, mine are quite dusty but I have never lost my interest in aviation even though I have not flown in 20 years. Do you have any recommendations regarding the approach to prepping for the exam? I've seen some example questions and they were not trivial or simple in any way, shape or form.

Thanks for the interest in my post.
 
I think increasingly we (as responsible hobby/recreational drone pilots), are going to have to get proactive in playing a part in formation of new regulations, or as said, some really harsh ones will be imposed on us at the federal and state level. I'm thinking some kind of intermediate license like a standard drivers license which requires knowledge of basic regulations and airspace restrictions plus the ability to prove your basic ability to pilot the drone. I wouldn't mind something like this provided that a testing/licensing facility was within reasonable distance, and fees were relatively low.

I noted yesterday the planned collaboration between DJI and the AMA to try to establish our own rules and regs, and to hopefully protect ourselves from knee jerk regulations imposed because of some idiot(s) with drones causing major incidents.
 
I think increasingly we (as responsible hobby/recreational drone pilots), are going to have to get proactive in playing a part in formation of new regulations, or as said, some really harsh ones will be imposed on us at the federal and state level. I'm thinking some kind of intermediate license like a standard drivers license which requires knowledge of basic regulations and airspace restrictions plus the ability to prove your basic ability to pilot the drone. I wouldn't mind something like this provided that a testing/licensing facility was within reasonable distance, and fees were relatively low.

I noted yesterday the planned collaboration between DJI and the AMA to try to establish our own rules and regs, and to hopefully protect ourselves from knee jerk regulations imposed because of some idiot(s) with drones causing major incidents.

Great points. I am a boater and continue to be amazed that you still don't need any type of certification in order to operate a recreational vessel in public spaces. I know you can reduce your insurance costs (which I hope they have) through some basic boater certification programs but those are not really that stringent. Personally, I have a Florida Boater's Certification (even though I only boat in Michigan and Canada), several ASA sailboat training classes (more stringent, more recognized), and two USCG Power Squadron courses but I did not need anything when I purchased my 22K lb., 40 foot trawler 15 years ago.

Only time will tell.
 
Well, mine are quite dusty but I have never lost my interest in aviation even though I have not flown in 20 years. Do you have any recommendations regarding the approach to prepping for the exam? I've seen some example questions and they were not trivial or simple in any way, shape or form.

Thanks for the interest in my post.
Here you go. The up-dated FAA bibles. About 2000 pages total. Not counting FAR Part 91, which is still a fun read.
Everything we used to have to buy at an FBO is now free online.
Skip, of course, the IFR, multi-engine, type stuff. I recommend buying a current sectional @ an FBO near you so you can practice reading Long/Lat again.
The most tedious studying will be the new Risk Management concepts. The FAA is very proud of themselves for that conceptual masterpiece and you will probably get a couple of questions on it. Just commit their moronic acronyms to memory.
Weather terminology, reading weather reports, and the Airspace classifications should be learned cold turkey.
Take 6-8 weeks of off & on study time and you will back on the top of your game. Enjoy; it's a lot of fun!
There are some practice tests online; let me know when you are ready, or if you have questions.
1. https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...s/aviation/media/remote_pilot_study_guide.pdf
2. https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/media/aim.pdf
3. https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/phak/media/pilot_handbook.pdf
4. https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...viation/media/risk_management_hb_change_1.pdf
5. eCFR — Code of Federal Regulations
6. https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/fli...aero_guide/media/Chart_Users_Guide_12thEd.pdf
7. VFR Raster Charts
8. https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_00-6B.pdf
9. https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC 00-6A Chap 1-3.pdf
 
Here you go. The up-dated FAA bibles. About 2000 pages total. Not counting FAR Part 91, which is still a fun read.
Everything we used to have to buy at an FBO is now free online.
Skip, of course, the IFR, multi-engine, type stuff. I recommend buying a current sectional @ an FBO near you so you can practice reading Long/Lat again.
The most tedious studying will be the new Risk Management concepts. The FAA is very proud of themselves for that conceptual masterpiece and you will probably get a couple of questions on it. Just commit their moronic acronyms to memory.
Weather terminology, reading weather reports, and the Airspace classifications should be learned cold turkey.
Take 6-8 weeks of off & on study time and you will back on the top of your game. Enjoy; it's a lot of fun!
There are some practice tests online; let me know when you are ready, or if you have questions.
1. https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...s/aviation/media/remote_pilot_study_guide.pdf
2. https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/media/aim.pdf
3. https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/phak/media/pilot_handbook.pdf
4. https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...viation/media/risk_management_hb_change_1.pdf
5. eCFR — Code of Federal Regulations
6. https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/fli...aero_guide/media/Chart_Users_Guide_12thEd.pdf
7. VFR Raster Charts
8. https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_00-6B.pdf
9. https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC 00-6A Chap 1-3.pdf

Wow, thanks a lot as I was looking for something to occupy my time until I die. I will try and stay out of the Florida heat this summer and see what I can do. Thanks again.
 
Wow, thanks a lot as I was looking for something to occupy my time until I die. I will try and stay out of the Florida heat this summer and see what I can do. Thanks again.
It's fun. The bulk of it will be like seeing an old friend again.
 
OK, here's an example of an area I would like to fly. Based on my interpretation it is OK 700" AGL and below except I would obviously not fly near the airport that is shown. My location is the anchor symbol (seaplane emergency) just north of the airport. I'm sure I'm wrong but just wanted to check. FYI, this just south of the Canadian border.

 
Yea, you've got it. Class E - bottom at 700 AGL. Glass G, (uncontrolled), below the Class E - to the surface.You will be with-in 5 miles of Drummond Island Airport, (DRM), so as per the sUAS recreational hobby rules you will want to adhere to the following:
Recreational Users | Know Before You Fly

The gray area is this statement:
"Under the Special Rule for Model Aircraft, recreational UAS must be operated in accordance with several requirements, including a community-based set of safety guidelines and within the programming of a nationwide community-based organization such as the Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA).
Operators not operating within the safety program of a community-based organization should follow the FAA’s guidance here."

It could be argued that the wording," with-in the programming" means that you must belong to the community-based organization. I have never come across a definitive ruling on that. But, if you are not operating within the safety guidelines of a community based program and click the "FAA's Guidance" Link, you will see that the FAA's guidance is actually more more vague and relaxed the the AMA's. Just follow the AMA's "Safety Guidelines" and you will be exceeding the FAA's guidance.
Don't forget the courtesy call to DRM since you will be with-in 5 miles.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I'm glad I passed my first exam on reading charts. I am aware of top 3 rules (400' or less, VLOS, and 5 mile from airports) but have not gotten into the community stuff. Unlike model airplanes, we don't make noise or need a runway so any alliance with the AMA folks would need a paradigm shift among it's more seasoned leadership who probably don't appreciate UAVs (IMHO). I personally favor the AOPA more. Since DRM is uncontrolled I'm not sure who I would contact. Do they still have UNICOM 122.8? I don't think my boat VHF operates on that frequency. Maybe the FBO (probably only one).

Unfortunately, the biggest obstacle to my flying is with VLOS as most all of my flights are Litchi missions that are less than 250', 2-3 miles in length and almost always over un-populated wilderness/water in central (Great Lakes area) Ontario, Canada. If it ever did crash my first place to look would be on Amazon. From what I have read. the Canadian rules don't differ much from ours Flying your drone safely and legally - Transport Canada

This was an interesting post on the link you just sent. FAA begins drone map release - AOPA I wonder how long that would take to make it to Drummond Island International.

FYI, I have a P3P.
 

Members online

Forum statistics

Threads
143,066
Messages
1,467,355
Members
104,934
Latest member
jody.paugh@fullerandsons.