FAA heliports

[ianwood]

Hooper heliport does not have a tower.

Whether or not it has an official ATC, Hooper is manned and operational 24/7 with a UNICOM that is centrally coordinated.

Which section of Part 336 did this pilot violate? I have reviewed the appropriate FAA publications and at 1000 feet, 1/4 mile from 4ACO (Hooper) and this operator was doing nothing wrong, as far as I can see, under section 336.

Very simple: failure to avoid manned aircraft. And if you can't see what's wrong with being at 1,000ft AGL 1/4 mile outside of one of the busiest heliports in the country, maybe you should find another hobby. LAPD have very little sympathy for anyone operating in that area.

"Use buildings as cover"-- I have an issue with that approach; you are burying your head in the sand. I say go out and fly your UAS proudly, in public, for all the world to see. There is no reason to hide if you are following the regulations.

This isn't a function of pride. It is a matter of safety. And it's not just my strategy. It's pretty common knowledge amongst professional operators who work in urban areas. It's actually in part 107 as well.

"If you have a pilot's license, use a portable VHF..." -- You don't have to be a pilot to own a portable radio that monitors ATC radio frequencies.

Yes, you don't need a pilot's license but if you have no experience communicating with air traffic, good luck figuring out what's being said on the radio.

 

[BigRotor]

Whether or not it has an official ATC, Hooper is manned and operational 24/7 with a UNICOM that is centrally coordinated.



Very simple: failure to avoid manned aircraft. And if you can't see what's wrong with being at 1,000ft AGL 1/4 mile outside of one of the busiest heliports in the country, maybe you should find another hobby. LAPD have very little sympathy for anyone operating in that area.



This isn't a function of pride. It is a matter of safety. And it's not just my strategy. It's pretty common knowledge amongst professional operators who work in urban areas. It's actually in part 107 as well.



Yes, you don't need a pilot's license but if you have no experience communicating with air traffic, good luck figuring out what's being said on the radio.

What I do consider as unsafe is someone with a rudimentary understanding of the National Airspace
System putting out false information about non-existing 'towers' on a forum designed to instruct and inform. When questioned about this nonexistent tower, your ego gets bruised and you react by degradation of the messenger. I am 'proud' of my 40+ year long safety record in aviation. I am not intimidated by you and rest assured, I will not be "leaving the hobby". I am moving on from this topic, it is now a moot point. The LAPD have been schooled that they don't have any jurisdiction in airspace matters by the recent vindication of Averl Chappell III. It is the FAA's turf, not the LAPD's.

 

[ianwood]

What I do consider as unsafe is someone with a rudimentary understanding of the National Airspace
System putting out false information about non-existing 'towers' on a forum designed to instruct and inform. When questioned about this nonexistent tower, your ego gets bruised and you react by degradation of the messenger. I am 'proud' of my 40+ year long safety record in aviation. I am not intimidated by you and rest assured, I will not be "leaving the hobby". I am moving on from this topic, it is now a moot point. The LAPD have been schooled that they don't have any jurisdiction in airspace matters by the recent vindication of Averl Chappell III. It is the FAA's turf, not the LAPD's.

Well, thank you for your thoroughly enlightening (and thoroughly self-aggrandizing) response. I am going to guess that you have little to no local knowledge nor do you have much if any experience in commercial sUAS operations. Your 40+ years of experience is barely relevant.

I don't give a monkey's if you believe what I've written or not. It's not from me. It's from the LAX FSDO, LAPD Air Support, LAFD Air Ops, and LAPD. Maybe you should try to correct them too. Good luck!

 

[snowghost]

Well manned tower or no, we all must agree it's probably a very bad idea to be flying around the LAPD's busy helipad.

 

[ianwood]

Well manned tower or no, we all must agree it's probably a very bad idea to be flying around the LAPD's busy helipad.

That's really the only message I have been trying to get across. And to be very careful anywhere in LA due to heavy heli traffic.

 

[Tim Eckel]

Well manned tower or no, we all must agree it's probably a very bad idea to be flying around the LAPD's busy helipad.

If a helicopter or any maned aircraft has to maneuver around your drone, you're in violation of part 4 of section 336 of public law 112-95. So in the case of flying a drone around any area with heavy air traffic, not just around LAPD, it would be foolish and you could actually be charged.

I'm no attorney nor do I have a pilots license. However, I can find no RULE or LAW that says I must have an Android or iOS phone in order to fly a model aircraft for hobby or recreational use. Are some trying to imply that if you have an old flip phone you can no longer fly?

Looking at the actual rules, it's quite clear that I only need to notify airports if they're within 5 miles of my flying location. At my home, the B4UFly app lists 10 heliports or seaplane bases within 5 miles. None of these are actual airports and all have next to zero traffic (I can't remember the last time I saw a helicopter). This information is nice to know, and I'm glad I was made aware of a seaplane base 1.83 miles from my home. However, the only two actual airports within 30 miles are well over 10 miles away.

I looked at a few other apps and it appears the "UAV Forecast" app for Android provides better "airport" details. It actually will list FAA TFRs and DJI NFZs. These appear to be a filtered list of the NFZs in the over-zealous (or maybe over-cautious) B4UFly app. While I know this app can't be used as gospel, it seems like a more useful tool than the B4UFly app which has ZERO authority either.

 

[sknyfats]

Looking at the actual rules, it's quite clear that I only need to notify airports if they're within 5 miles of my flying location. At my home, the B4UFly app lists 10 heliports or seaplane bases within 5 miles. None of these are actual airports and all have next to zero traffic (I can't remember the last time I saw a helicopter).

I know this is an old thread, but wanted to clear something up.

Just like every bourbon is a whiskey but not ever whiskey is a bourbon...

Every helipad is an airport, but not every airport is a helipad.

All law begins with definitions. FAA law is no different and defines an airport as:

"Airport means an area of land or water that is used or intended to be used for the landing and takeoff of aircraft, and includes its buildings and facilities, if any."

So, yes, you are required to notify places that are designated helipads.

All helipads are considered an airport. And there is no "tower" requirement. If Joe the farmer that does crop dusting has his land designated as an airport with the FAA - ya gotta notify him!

What FAA rules don't go into is if you can't find anyone to contact at said helipad. My guess is if you do your due diligence and can confirm with certainty that no flights will be inbound or outbound, than you'll probably be ok. But you better have proof you know this - from some type of authority. And preferably in writing.

But God help you if you make an assumption that the nearby helipad - say - one for a private business that is rarely used (like 3 times a year) and you decide to fly your UAS within 5 miles of it without notifying and a helo decides to come in that day & an incident occurs....

 

[Duchunter]

If you fly regularly within 5 miles of an airport I understand that you can setup an los and you don't have to call every time you fly. You have just as much right to use that airspace as anyone else.

 

[sknyfats]

If you fly regularly within 5 miles of an airport I understand that you can setup an los and you don't have to call every time you fly. You have just as much right to use that airspace as anyone else.

Yes - if you fly from regularly from a permanent location, you are encouraged to have a written agreement with all airports in the 5 mile radius.

 

[ianwood]

The FAA has distinguished between airports and helipads for drones. For example, the 333 blanket COA. They have even provided further guidance for professional drone operators with regard to different types of helipads. So while the definitions may suggest a helipad is an airport, and therefore a 5 mile radius is to be observed, there are practical examples where that isn't the case. Further to this, given the frequency of helipads and the nature of helicopter operations in and out of them, the 5 mile radius is both onerous and far beyond what would be sensible.

 

[sknyfats]

Show me where they distinguish that difference between an airport and a helipad.

I don't doubt further guidance for professional operators regarding helipads- but that doesn't change the fact that by legal definition - listed in Title 14 - an airport is "an area of land or water that is used or intended to be used for the landing and takeoff of aircraft, and includes its buildings and facilities, if any".

It doesn't differentiate between a plane nor helicopter. To further support the definition - helipads ARE listed on the B4UFly app - whiich the FAA advises (not require) you to use.

Explain you practical examples where notification is not required? An operator does not have the leisure of making a "judgement call" as to whether or not the nearby helipad should be notified. Again, should the helipad not be notified and air traffic to/from said helipad has an issue with the UAS - the UAS operator will be negligent for failure to notify.

I can show you 3 helipads near me that have a constant flow of traffic. I can then show you an airport that has very few flights per month.

Your argument is that you can disregard notifying the helipad but not disregard notifying the airport?

Nope. Doesn't work that way. The law is VERY clear and I don't understand why some of you are trying to write off a helipad simple because you happen to be near some that don't get much use. The arguments do not and will not hold up in the event of an incident.

 

[sknyfats]

I also challenge your statement about the 5 miles being onerous and far beyond what would be sensible.

Completely disagree. If anything - that rule applies strongly to helo traffic which is generally lower and shorter range - often (in the case of emergency, news media and law enforcement) only flying within that 5 mile radius!

 

[Mark The Droner]

Couple things:

1) PL 112-95 sec 334 uses the word "airport" and the word "heliport" in the same sentence. Why? If a heliport is an airport, why would the sentence be worded that way? But sec 336 uses the word "airport" while not using the word "heliport." Again - why? The implication is that the two words do not have the same meaning and that the word "heliport" actually means heliport, and so it was deliberately excluded from Sec 336.

https://www.faa.gov/uas/media/Sec_331_336_UAS.pdf

2) Airmap's mission is to map the air. The operators of that site know far more about mapping the sky than anybody in this thread. So if heliports are airports, why are heliports excluded on the airport map? Why would one have to go to the trouble to check a box marked heliport to see the heliports?

AirMap.io

This is not a loophole releasing pilots from advising heliports of a drone flight because we're still obliged to fly responsibly and not endanger the NAS. But it seems likely to me that the lack of a phone call to an underused heliport would not necessarily put a drone pilot in legal jeopardy.

 

[sknyfats]

334 is the impetus for for various govt parties/agencies to develop the guidance/rules/law regarding UAS' within a certain time frame. It's the framework/outline of which the Special Rule for Model Aircraft - sec 336 - is based on. 334 is NOT the law of the land. It is simply the force by which 336 was developed and implemented. Throughout all of the guidance put out by the FAA - sec 336 - not 334 - is what is referenced & is what should be followed.

336 is the actual rule - which states the requirement for which NO OTHER FAA rule or regulation can be applied - because operating a UAS per the 5 criteria qualifies it as a model aircraft.

Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations which contains all Federal Aviation Administration regulations has precedence and those definitions throughout. You simply cannot argue with Title 14 (except where other definitions are outlined & reference to a new definition superseding Title 14 should be applied).

As you stated - "we're all obliged to fly responsibily and not endanger the NAS" - and as such, rules were put in place. No where in those rules is there a "test" to determine which airports (which includes helipads by legal definition!) you can pick & choose to notify or not in order to legally operate under the "special rule for model aircraft". There is nothing that says "there is no need to notify an underused airport" (or heliport).

Again - it's so simple. If you do not call a helipad that is within 5 miles of your location because you felt it was "underutilized" - and an incident occurred with an aircraft taking off/landing at said helipad - you most certainly will be negligent for not making the notification.

Do you not see the potential for recklessness if you apply your same logic to an "underutilized airport" (of the conventional sense in your eyes for the sake of argument)?

Who determines what underutilized is? An airport that get's only 2 flights a day? 2 flights a month? 2 flights a year? or one that get's only 10 flights a day - compared to one that has 60 flights a day?

The easiest solution - and adherence to law - would be to have a written agreement with said airport (which includes helipads). Otherwise, operators leave themselves open to negligence if they fail to notify.

To your argument regarding AirMap - ask them. You can't use their site/data as basis for compliance with the law.

This is the last I'm commenting on this. And the reason I have been commenting is in case others come across this thread - so they are safe & legal.

This should be the final piece to put this to bed. On the FAAs' website...under their FAQ for UAS...go to the "Flying for Fun (recreational or hobby) section...question number 6: Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS) Frequently Asked Questions

They broke it down for those of you who don't understand the legal definition of an "airport" as I've tried to explain . . .

Do I have to notify all airports within five miles of where I want to fly recreationally?
Yes, you must contact any airports (including heliports and sea-based airports) and air traffic control towers within five miles of your proposed area of operations if flying under the Special Rule for Model Aircraft (Public Law 112-95, Section 336).

 

[Crack The Sky]

A week ago the


A week ago, airmap was showing a yellow circle about 1.5 miles in diameter around a hospital 2 miles from me. Fine. Now it's not showing anything other than the hospital itself. The yellow circle stops at the edge of their parking lot.

It appears to me nobody knows what the hell is going on. And that includes the FAA.

Meanwhile I read this article this morning:

NTSB says ice on wings caused 2014 Gaithersburg plane crash that killed 6

Did you know there are over 1,000 small manned aircraft crashes each year? I didn't. That's THREE A DAY.

Maybe the FAA should worry more about why there are three small manned air crashes every day, and worry less about how wide a yellow circle they want to put around a hospital.

There are "over 1,000 small manned aircraft crashes each year", simply because there are several thousand small manned aircraft movements per day. The accident rate is incredibly low, and getting better every year due to certificate action and prosecution of unlawful and unsafe pilots. Same thing will be happening soon with sUAS operators.

 

[ianwood]

I provided my example: section 333 blanket COA. Ask Brendan Schulman if he thinks a helipad is an airport as per the FAA's practical use of the two terms.

And an example of a helipad where notification is not required would be ones that are private and for emergency use only as they are essentially inactive. This may not be universal but it was guidance provided to me directly from the FAA. And I agree that by and large if you don't know, you need to assume it's active. Homework is required.

As for the 5 mile radius, unless they are performing specific operations or there are significant elevation changes, helicopters are at or near their target altitude (or are typically above 400ft AGL) well within 1 mile. Again, this may not be universally true but a 5 mile radius is generally excessive IMHO. And it's not as if you dont have to bother being aware of them outside of 5 miles. In LA, you can pretty much consider the entire city is a giant helipad.

 

[Mark The Droner]

If we left it to the FAA, simply owning a UAS would be grounds for jail time. Fortunately, the FAA must adhere to law just as we must.

..

They broke it down for those of you who don't understand the legal definition of an "airport" as I've tried to explain . . .

Do I have to notify all airports within five miles of where I want to fly recreationally?
Yes, you must contact any airports (including heliports and sea-based airports) and air traffic control towers within five miles of your proposed area of operations if flying under the Special Rule for Model Aircraft (Public Law 112-95, Section 336).

Animals and giraffes are warm-blooded.

Know what the word giraffes is above? Redundant.

If the legal definition of "airport" includes "heliport,", then why is airport and heliport used in the same sentence in PL 112-95 section 334? Why? Please answer the question.

In summary, it's clear to me (and others such as those running the airmap site) that, regarding heliports, we can happily consider the above FAA FAQ a guideline, not a law.

 

[Neggy]

Well I am going to be on record as the shortest time Mavic owner on record.

I have the return slips for Amazon printed and the Drone has not even arrived yet.

There is no place within 50 miles of me where I can fly due to heliports. I'm not calling them every time I want to use a UAV to take a picture of my dogs on the front lawn.

Where I am now, there is a private grass field a couple of miles away, and heliports that I know for a face are private and inactive showing on B4UFLY.

I am a "non current" General Aviation pilot. I fully understand the whole danger to aircraft thing, but unless you are under an airport pattern, either Right ( the most common for planes) Left (used for Rotored aircraft), or straight in based on the runway orientation, we should be able to fly under 400 feet.

As a GA Pilot, 500' is my absolute floor, and in heavily populated areas ( the yellow areas you see on the sectionals) that floor is 1000' AGL

The easiest thing for me to do is return the Mavic unopened, and buy a UAV that does not leave a data trail back to the DJI servers, servers that are subject to search warrants by the Feds.

Even inside Class C airspace, where I see the floor is 1500 feet for the approach to the big city airport, at 400' I am still maintaining at least 1100 foot separation if I was directly under the final.

My home in Florida has nothing near it in 2 directions for miles. I have 200,000 acres of open space in my back yard on the other side of the fence..... yes there is a prison a few miles up the road, but I am not one to be flying over prisons. What I do have a couple of miles down the road is a "air park" where owners have hangars at their houses. Do I have to contact every homeowner and notify them?

I can fly bleeping VFR ( and have) with 3 major airports near me down there as long as I avoid their airspace, without having to be in contact with any tower or Miami ATC. If I am going to overfly Naples , Marco,or Everglades I just give a shout out on the Unicom that I am in the area and overflying the field at XX altitude. As long as I stay under RSW's protected airspace I am golden. But I can't fly a drone at 400' AGL? I have flown circles over my house and taken pictures from 1000' under VFR conditions and no permissions needed.

Oh well I guess it is time for me to get a check ride to become current again if I want to take pictures from above.

 

[sknyfats]

You have options. If you choose to stay in the hobby/recreation category - then yes, notify all those folks or have written standing agreements with them so you don't have to call them all the time.

But with your extensive and oh so unique aviatio experience (sarcasm) - just get your license so you're not limited to the simple rules and regulations of hobbyist/recreational operators.

Blows my mind the failure of some people to understand & agree to what I think are fairly simple and common sense rules that are in place due to the massive numbers of novices operating highly capable flying devices in the airspace.

I will go on record to say I love flying drones, have no concern or worry at all about DJI having access to any of my flight logs/data, and have no problem operating my machines in accordance to the hobby/recreational guidelines. It really isn't a problem - even with numerous conventional airports & helipads within 5 miles of me (including a very large Naval Airstation!). I do it often and legal, every time.

(Really thought I unsubscribed from this thread already! Gonna ensure I am this time)

 

[TexasNightOwl]

The problem with helicopters is that they tend to fly low far beyond the 5 mile range of the helipads. So applying the 5 mile limit to them is senseless. Instead, there should be a requirement that all aircraft must stay in excess of 500 feet, with all drones under 400 feet, unless the helicopter is hovering or doing a vertical landing/takeoff. You can hear (or use device that can for deaf people) a helicopter hovering nearby.

A range of 1 mile from helipad should be adequate, and it should be mandatory that the helipad provide a phone number that either will be answered or provide recording capability for drone operators to notify of activity within that 1 mile.