Avoid exceeding legal max altitude

[ProfessorStein]

As has been mentioned, you are SUPPOSED to only fly model rockets in approved areas (though we all know that doesn't always happen... it's too easy to just take 'em down to the local school playground or sports field, when no one is there, and launch them off).

But the big difference here is that model rockets are GENERALLY much lighter than a Phantom, and their core are made of cardboard rather than plastic. I would be far less concerned about a plane striking a model rocket than I would a drone.

But, yeah, it may very well come down to drones being required to carry some sort of transponder before too long... which would be pretty ugly, since transponders are typically quite heavy.

 

[J.James]

maximum legal altitude in your area? I'm in the US and over 5 miles from an air port so don't really have them restriction or any laws to worry about being broken. But none the less to help ensure that I don't go higher then 400 feet and staying int he area below were planes are supposed to be allowed to go. I set the height limits in the naza assistant to just not let it go. any higher then 400 feet. If I'm flying some place out in the middle of no ware and its not even any thing to worry about any safely issues or any chance of encountering any air craft I set it higher if I want to go higher. Plus when I fly some place out in the middle of no ware Were any odd plane might be seen flying they are usually over the clouds and the average cloud ceiling around these parts are usually about 5000 to 7000 feet and no way Id ever be able to get that high even if I wanted to and certainly would not be able to also bring it back down in time before the battery died and it doing a swan dive to the ground.

 

[Timtro]

I take off from a mountain 1000ft above sea level and fly 400ft up so I am at 1400ft could I potentially be in the path of another aircraft flying at 1400ft?

No... because they are supposed to stay ABOVE 400ft relative (or, as Sar termed it, "AGL").

Ground level. It's always ground level. (Well... okay... not always... but in this circumstance)

Actually there is another 100 feet margin of safety above the 400 foot UAV ceiling which means Minimum Safe Altitude (MSA) is:

Over Congested Areas: an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal distance of less than 2,000 feet;
Over Populated Areas: an altitude of 500 feet AGL;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lowest_safe_altitude (for your convenience and reference)

 

[Wedeliver]

I live immediately north of a mountain called Timber Mountain. We actually live at the base of it. So if a airplane was flying over timber mountain at 500' elevation he would have to dive on my side to stay 500' agl if he flew level then I would have about 1400' from where I am to 400' above the mountain. I think we get maybe 1 plane a month that is flying lower then 10,000'. We don't have noise from aircraft, and I really like that. But a train goes by about 6:00am and if the conditions are right even at 2.5 miles away you can hear that train horn. Oh. sorry off subject.

I want to have a AMA approved RC playground. From my 34 acre property there is a northern view where the ground slops gently down and on a clear day you can see for miles. Actually I want my own aircraft so I can go to Redding, CA a 2.5 hour drive. I should have taken those flying lessons that the VA would have paid for. darn

I have flow above 7,000' and flytrex gave me a very special award for that.

 

[TheloniousMac]

ThelonoiusMac, To clarify, in Australia you are restricted to 400ft AGL in controlled airspace which is pretty well most of Australia, and you cannot fly within 3nm of a registered, certified or military airfield as noted in ERSA. The ONLY exception to this would be as a fully licensed operator who has permission from CASA.
Now the next bit, if you are flying above the ground at 400ft you would in most circumstances be ok as the minimum height for aircraft is 500ft AGL, then there are the anomalies say low level crop spraying or a low level survey aircraft which may have permission to fly at low level, or even someone making a mistake setting their altimeter..... They only have to be 100ft out.
BTW a Phantom could easily take down an aircraft, imagine a light aircraft doing 120kts (about 200kmh) and your Phantom hits the windscreen, I am sure it would go straight through it.

Absolutely wrong... If you actually read the CASA regulations they explicitly state the 400 ft ceiling limit WITHIN 3 nm of an aerodrome (permission can be sought to go higher).
Populated areas i.e.. cities, the same restricted airspace applies... Rest of this massive country is non restricted as far as UAV height restrictions.

There are quite a few people and places in the media parroting the inaccurate laws regarding UAV restrictions but if you actually read the CASA regulations it's quite clear.
Of course they don't recommend flying within 3 nm of an airport, but that's just common sense... There are however no laws restricting Remote Craft being flown within 3 nm except the 30 metres from people and buildings etc...

 

[Wedeliver]

Isn't like most of Australia the out back. a nice place for a "walk about" and probably not much flying in the air. Or has all of that country turned into Los Angeles, which is house after house after house after house..can't say that enough times.

I think less then 1% of the country is occupied and I found this interesting fact..There are around 20 million people living in Australia. Strangely, there are around 150 million sheep in Australia. Due to this, the country is the largest exporter of sheep wool and meat in the world.

37 million people live in california

anyone who makes a sheep joke deserves to be spanked!!

 

[ProfessorStein]

Isn't like most of Australia the out back. a nice place for a "walk about" and probably not much flying in the air.

Just pack a lot of spare batteries ;-)

anyone who makes a sheep joke deserves to be spanked!!

Ooop. Darn. Nevermind then.

 

[pierrelogic]

I always stay under 400 Ft. :twisted:

 

[Flying High]

ThelonoiusMac, To clarify, in Australia you are restricted to 400ft AGL in controlled airspace which is pretty well most of Australia, and you cannot fly within 3nm of a registered, certified or military airfield as noted in ERSA. The ONLY exception to this would be as a fully licensed operator who has permission from CASA.
Now the next bit, if you are flying above the ground at 400ft you would in most circumstances be ok as the minimum height for aircraft is 500ft AGL, then there are the anomalies say low level crop spraying or a low level survey aircraft which may have permission to fly at low level, or even someone making a mistake setting their altimeter..... They only have to be 100ft out.
BTW a Phantom could easily take down an aircraft, imagine a light aircraft doing 120kts (about 200kmh) and your Phantom hits the windscreen, I am sure it would go straight through it.

Absolutely wrong... If you actually read the CASA regulations they explicitly state the 400 ft ceiling limit WITHIN 3 nm of an aerodrome (permission can be sought to go higher).
Populated areas i.e.. cities, the same restricted airspace applies... Rest of this massive country is non restricted as far as UAV height restrictions.

There are quite a few people and places in the media parroting the inaccurate laws regarding UAV restrictions but if you actually read the CASA regulations it's quite clear.
Of course they don't recommend flying within 3 nm of an airport, but that's just common sense... There are however no laws restricting Remote Craft being flown within 3 nm except the 30 metres from people and buildings etc...

 

[Flying High]

TheloniousMac,
In regards to your first paragraph I have been studying the CASA regulations amongst other things solidly for the last 2 weeks, in fact at the time today when I looked at your response telling me I was absolutely wrong I was sat in a room with 4 qualified and CASA approved instructors and 6 other RPA pilots studying for my CASA approved Controllers Certificate to be able to fly RPA's up to 7kg legally in Australia, so I firmly believe I have some idea what I am talking about.
The real scary thing is that other people will read what you have written and believe it, in the eyes of the law ignorance will be no defence when your actions bring down an aircraft.
Now, rather than me getting stuck into you for spreading false and potentially dangerous information I would rather you contacted CASA and seek clarification from them, email: [email protected] they will be more than happy to clarify the CASR101 regulations for you.
When you have done this please be kind enough to post back your findings for everyones benefit.

 

[Soulnet]

TheloniousMac,
In regards to your first paragraph I have been studying the CASA regulations amongst other things solidly for the last 2 weeks, in fact at the time today when I looked at your response telling me I was absolutely wrong I was sat in a room with 4 qualified and CASA approved instructors and 6 other RPA pilots studying for my CASA approved Controllers Certificate to be able to fly RPA's up to 7kg legally in Australia, so I firmly believe I have some idea what I am talking about.
The real scary thing is that other people will read what you have written and believe it, in the eyes of the law ignorance will be no defence when your actions bring down an aircraft.
Now, rather than me getting stuck into you for spreading false and potentially dangerous information I would rather you contacted CASA and seek clarification from them, email: [email protected] they will be more than happy to clarify the CASR101 regulations for you.
When you have done this please be kind enough to post back your findings for everyones benefit.

Hi TheloniousMac! I see you're still not convinced I sent a letter to my local tower as well as i'm just outside the 3nm radius of an airport so they know where abouts i'm generally flying (i've a great area to fly just out my front door) explaining what i've read the regulations but also to let them know what i'm up to in case there are any misleading reports from other pilots that i'm in their way or above my allowed threshold.

I haven't got a reply yet but i'm hoping I will!

 

[TheloniousMac]

The CASA laws are clearly written on their site and anyone can see that they absolutely DO NOT prohibit flying under 400 ft within 3 nm of an aerodrome. Interesting that you would be spending time supposedly getting your CASA licence when the proposed new regulations will deregulate anything under 2kg even for commercial use which would cover the Phantom.
The general misinformation is just as you stated but if you actually read and understand the CASA laws and not what everyone else is spouting then you will see that you are wrong. The closest they have come to a restriction is recommending against flying within 3 nm of an aerodrome. It may be updated next year with the new regulations but as of right now... Not illegal.

 

[TheloniousMac]

TheloniousMac,
In regards to your first paragraph I have been studying the CASA regulations amongst other things solidly for the last 2 weeks, in fact at the time today when I looked at your response telling me I was absolutely wrong I was sat in a room with 4 qualified and CASA approved instructors and 6 other RPA pilots studying for my CASA approved Controllers Certificate to be able to fly RPA's up to 7kg legally in Australia, so I firmly believe I have some idea what I am talking about.
The real scary thing is that other people will read what you have written and believe it, in the eyes of the law ignorance will be no defence when your actions bring down an aircraft.
Now, rather than me getting stuck into you for spreading false and potentially dangerous information I would rather you contacted CASA and seek clarification from them, email: [email protected] they will be more than happy to clarify the CASR101 regulations for you.
When you have done this please be kind enough to post back your findings for everyones benefit.

I'm not suggesting anyone take my or your word for it. The information is right there from CASA and people should just read the actual laws for themselves and not just blindly accept any ignorance being passed off as what we can and can't do to stay within the law.

 

[Flying High]

TheloniousMac,
I spent a whole day reading and studying the regulations so I do know and understand them.
After asking some questions I agree there is some ambiguity in all this and in effect you are partially right in that technically you can fly above 400ft in uncontrolled airspace which is generally outside of most major cities, however it might not technically be illegal but you will be mixing it with other aircraft that can legally fly as low as 500ft and you would be strictly liable if you brought one down, if you read the regulations it specifically states you must not endanger another aircraft. This ambiguity is because if you fly a UAV as a hobby it comes under CASA101-1 part G which applies to model aircraft, if you fly for reward or gain therefore commercially you come under 101-1 part F and limited to 400ft in uncontrolled airspace (Class G).
Under no circumstances can you fly in controlled, restricted or prohibited airspace or within 3nm (5.6km) of an aerodrome that is listed in ERSA without written permission from CASA, I still say ask them the question.
The reason I have spent my time and a considerable amount of money for my Controller Certificate is so I can fly RPA's up to 7kg commercially for work, (we already have an Operators Certificate) the payload on my Phantom is a GoPro which is totally not suitable for what I want.
Our target clients are very high end and demand very high levels of safety and operational competency eg; trained and licensed operators and pilots, I still believe that anyone flying commercially should at least be registered or licensed and have to at least have had some training otherwise it will be mayhem as they could just go to Drones 'R' Us and start flying around without any knowledge of the regulations or safety requirements. I agree most of us that fly as a hobby have some basic knowledge and to be honest I have learnt a great deal from getting my CC which I passed today, but its the idiots out there who will spoil it for everyone.
The other plus is we were trained to fly a high end quad worth around $40k, got to actually fly a light aircraft and got a aircraft radio certificate.

 

[Soulnet]

Not sure where you got the can't fly in controlled airspace, it seems like the RPAs need permission, those as a hobby do not.

Here's the link I use;

http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?W ... =PC_100375

Model aircraft and RPA
Difference between RPAs and model aircraft
People have been flying model aircraft for many years. How are these different from the remotely piloted 'drones' we hear so much about?

From CASA's perspective, the difference between RPA and model aircraft is that RPA are used for commercial, government or research purposes and model aircraft are flown just for fun – for sport and recreation.

In other words, CASA classifies your unmanned aircraft by what you do with it.

Licensing
Model aircraft
You do not need formal piloting qualifications to operate a radio-controlled model. But … you do need to observe some rules (see below: 'What's allowed').

It is illegal to fly a model aircraft for commercial hire and reward unless you have an unmanned operator's certificate covering that type of operation.

If you want to join an association/club then there is the Model Aeronautical Association of Australia (MAAA), which has about 11,000 model aircraft enthusiast members. The MAAA offers a 'wings rating' system (bronze, gold and instructor levels).

RPA
CASA's thinking is that UAS pilots need general aviation knowledge in line with a private pilot's licence, as well as specific unmanned aircraft skills.

To fly an RPA of any size for commercial reward you need an unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) controller's certificate and an unmanned operator's certificate (UOC) for your business.

Additional ratings include a flight radio operator's licence, and experience on the type of UAS operated.

What's allowed?
RPA
Unmanned aircraft activities are approved for operations over unpopulated areas up to 400 feet AGL (above ground level) (120 metres), or higher with special approvals.
Special approvals are also required for other areas.
Operations are not permitted in controlled airspace without CASA approval and coordination with Airservices Australia
Can be operated in visual meteorological conditions (VMC) and /or instrument meteorological conditions (IMC) with appropriate approvals.
Model aircraft
You should only fly a model aircraft in visual line-of-sight, in day visual meteorological conditions (VMC). What does that mean?
no night flying
no flying in or through cloud or fog, and
you should be able to see the aircraft with your own eyes (rather than through its point-of-view camera) at all times
You must not fly a model aircraft over populous areas such as beaches, other people's backyards, heavily populated parks, or sports ovals where there is a game in progress.
In controlled airspace, which covers most Australian cities, model aircraft must not be flown higher than 400 feet (120 metres)
You should not fly closer than 5.5km from an airfield.

 

[Flying High]

Ok, lets clarify this, look at the last 2 lines of your comments;
1. In controlled airspace, WHICH COVERS MOST AUSTRALIAN CITIES.......
2. You should not fly closer than 5.5km from an airfield.
I agree that these are fairly simplistic but this is what you posted from the CASA website, the nuances are in the detail and I have been studying this and will state again, you cannot fly at all within 5.5km of an aerodrome listed in ERSA without permission from CASA.
Lets look at controlled airspace, what airspace are you talking about, class A, class C, class D or class G? The only uncontrolled airspace is class G.
The other thing is VFR (visual flight rules) can you see a Phantom at a height of 400ft, yes just about but its getting difficult so don't lose sight of it.....
Yes you are correct as a commercial operator the restrictions are more than someone flying as a hobby although I think this may change soon, watch this space!

 

[Soulnet]

Agreed! It is odd that commercial flyers in controlled airspace need to let the tower know before you fly where I as a hobby flyer can provide i'm under 400ft and not 5.5km from an airfield

 

[Flying High]

Soulnet
Even as a commercial flyer I cannot fly in controlled airspace without permission from CASA and a NOTAM issued, even in the vicinity of an aerodrome (10nm) It is advisable though not mandated that I advise the tower of what I am doing even though I am limited to 400ft AGL, within 3nm if I am granted permission the radio is a must.
I am not trying to be a smartarse but I have spent a considerable amount of money and time to be able to fly safely, legally and educate myself in what I need to know to achieve this, the main objective of CASA is not to stop people flying but to ensure it is safe for everyone.

 

[Soulnet]

Hello all again

I have just finished a conversation with Kev from CASA (he's in the 'sports' division which looks after queries such as ours). In no uncertain terms he and CASA will not publish a strict set of rules for all purposes and will only reply to specifics and where to find the answers in the regulations. He can assist with interpretations if you are unsure but he definitely did not like me republishing my email query or the reply.

So for anywhere in Australia send your email to the below department where you can get a specific answer to your own flying needs.

Sport Aviation Safety Assurance Officer
Self Administering Sport Aviation Organisations Section
Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Australia

Lastly, I also had a chat casually about the hobby and what he does and he said he does answer these sort of questions all the time. He was very open but also very, very patient with me! He said not to be afraid of them as that isn't their role.

Most importantly Kev did warn, do not publish or state what you think is the correct answer because you can also be held accountable if someone took your interpretation and used that to fly with. I cannot tell you the agitation I felt from him with regards to this point.

So i'm putting together another email to him with specifically what i'm doing and where etc... so I can get a definitive answer.

Hope this helps others out there too !

 

[TheloniousMac]

I think things will get busier in the skies in the coming years, with the new Parrot drones coming out and sold cheaply in most stores... DJI is still very limited in where you can buy them from.
I now take my Phantom outside the 3 nm radius of airports but still see a lot of low flying planes all the time which would be an issue if I didn't know what I was doing or being malicious.
Generally I keep to 90 metres altitude as that puts me above the treeline and the shots look better/larger anyway for what I'm mostly doing.
Hypothetically if I were to fly near an airport but under the treeline/hill altitude would that be frowned upon? or is the theoretical limit no flying AT ALL?
Is the theoretical NO FLY limit put in for the contingency of flyaways? Technology is only getting better.
What about the Parrot Spider which I've flown to 15 metres altitude, clearly a kids toy or any number of other foam flying toys from K-mart (the Air Hogs collection), they can go like 30 metres high.
Where is the threshold? Hopefully this will all become clearer when the new regulations are handed down.

I'm planning to stay grounded for the month of November when the G20 is in town... Americans with guns and all. Despite the restricted zone being the city and I've heard that the police will be flying their own drones around for surveillance, of course that's not going to stop someone who wants to cause mayhem.

Just for reference this is the closest reference from CASA I could find in regard to not flying near an airport.
http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_assets/main/lib100071/flying_with_control_model.pdf
Note the MUST NOT for most of the rules but then only SHOULD NOT in regard to the airports... interesting legal terminology there anyway.