Aperhinsive about the RTH

ok, well I finally tried the RTH, three times actually. the first time I flew out about 100 ft and turned the RC off, I know, not the way to do it but.... and it followed procedure and arrived home safely! the second time, I flew up to 1075 feet then went out of range and it again returned home safely! the third time was a bit scary because it was unexpected, I reach critical battery, luckily I was only about 100 or so feet away. the first two time I paid special attention to the light so I would know what they looked like (since I don't have all the LED patterns memorized) the third time, during low battery, obviously I had a different light pattern and since it wasn't the same, it took me a minute to figure out what was going on. but all went well!!

Thank to all of you for your help and advise!!!!
 
The difference is the S1 switch keeps the controller turned on so it doesn't lose its binding. When the drone returns to a position where you are ready to takeover (or you can just let it fully RTH and land if you wish), you flip the S1 switch back to GPS or ATTI and begin flying again.

If you turn the controller off, you will more than likely be unable to regain control of the drone by turning it on. Instead, you are at the mercy of where the drone is going for its RTH location. If it's wrong--you are out of luck and have a fly-away.

The smartest approach is to utilize the S1 as the failsafe and use that for RTH. I hope that helps.[/quote]

The difference is the S1 switch keeps the controller turned on so it doesn't lose its binding. When the drone returns to a position where you are ready to takeover (or you can just let it fully RTH and land if you wish), you flip the S1 switch back to GPS or ATTI and begin flying again.

I disagree.. when you say "so it doesn't lose its binding" to me, that means losing the complete ability to communicate the transmitter with the aircraft unless you go through the rebinding process.. this is simply not true. Furthermore, the controller does not have any knowledge of your home location.. all of that data is stored on the aircraft at the time home location is set. Fact is, I find absolutely nothing is wrong with turning off the transmitter in order to initiate RTH. I do it all of the time on my distance flights and it has yet to fail me.
 
My biggest point is that it is no smarter to use S1 to initiate failsafe than it is to turn off the controller. S1 to failsafe and turning off the controller are both functionally equivalent when it comes to the transmission link between the controller and the phantom. In either case, there is no control signal.

When regaining control, for the one who initiated RTH via S1, switching S1 to GPS is functionally equivalent to turning the controller on (with S1 in the GPS position). The control signal (or binding of the tx to the phantom) occurs functionally the same in either case.
 
Dumb question.. when the aircraft files past the communication point of the controller, would it not also lose its binding? Newbee here, so please be gentle..

if does lose binding, how would you re-bind it?
 
srandall25 said:
My biggest point is that it is no smarter to use S1 to initiate failsafe than it is to turn off the controller. S1 to failsafe and turning off the controller are both functionally equivalent when it comes to the transmission link between the controller and the phantom. In either case, there is no control signal.

When regaining control, for the one who initiated RTH via S1, switching S1 to GPS is functionally equivalent to turning the controller on (with S1 in the GPS position). The control signal (or binding of the tx to the phantom) occurs functionally the same in either case.

+10^9
 
srandall25 said:
In either case, there is no control signal.

How so? If you use the switch, the RF control link is maintained and the Rx continuously reports the value of the switch being in that position, until you move it. Doesn't break the connection.
 
srandall25 said:
My biggest point is that it is no smarter to use S1 to initiate failsafe than it is to turn off the controller. S1 to failsafe and turning off the controller are both functionally equivalent when it comes to the transmission link between the controller and the phantom. In either case, there is no control signal.

When regaining control, for the one who initiated RTH via S1, switching S1 to GPS is functionally equivalent to turning the controller on (with S1 in the GPS position). The control signal (or binding of the tx to the phantom) occurs functionally the same in either case.

Simply not true.

S1 initiation of RTH does not sever the RF control link.
It is the Mode Control channel - "U".
It has no bearing on Tx transmission, that is limited to the Power switch only.
 
OI Photography said:
srandall25 said:
In either case, there is no control signal.

How so? If you use the switch, the RF control link is maintained and the Rx continuously reports the value of the switch being in that position, until you move it. Doesn't break the connection.

Just wondering, how do you know this? S1 failsafe could just simply cut the TX control signal internal to the TX. Or it could signal the phantom to cut the signal from its end, either way the signal is cut and there is no more comms between the TX and the phantom.

Are you suggesting that DJI has programmed in some other mode into the phantom firmware that handles this? I seriously doubt that.

I think the TX cuts the signal internally, then when you switch S1 out of failsafe the signal picks up again and thats how the phantom knows the S1 position.

Isn't there a red LED on the phantom that shows whether there areTX comms? Checking that LED with TX off, and then TX on and S1 failsafe, would give a definitive answer.
 
tizzl10 said:
I disagree.. when you say "so it doesn't lose its binding" to me, that means losing the complete ability to communicate the transmitter with the aircraft unless you go through the rebinding process.. this is simply not true. Furthermore, the controller does not have any knowledge of your home location.. all of that data is stored on the aircraft at the time home location is set. Fact is, I find absolutely nothing is wrong with turning off the transmitter in order to initiate RTH. I do it all of the time on my distance flights and it has yet to fail me.

I think there are two things going on, here.

The first is a misunderstanding of what "binding" is. Binding is NOT just the connection. It's how that connection is bound together between the components of the system.

When you turn on your RC, and then turn on your Phantom, there's a handshake that occurs. The Phantom passes info about itself to the controller, which the controller stores as the "target", and the Phantom in turn stores info about the controller so it knows who's talking to it. That is "binding". And that binding is kept (stored) for as long as the controller and Phantom are powered on.

When you power off the controller, it not only breaks the connection, but also forgets the binding. So that when you power it back on, the RC and the Phantom have to go through the entire handshaking process again to re-initiate the binding. Sometimes this is successful, sometimes it is not.


But the second thing is a misunderstanding (or, rather, an assumption) of what's happening when you use S1 to switch over to RTH.

When S1 is thrown, the controller is actually sending a command to the Phantom to initiate RTH. My belief is that the "Lost connection" error you're seeing in the app is actually a red herring... errantly popping up because the app has detected that the Phantom is executing a RTH. But even if it wasn't... even if S1 breaks the connection (and there's no reason to believe that it does... it's not like S1 is tied into the power bus of the controller)... both the controller and the Phantom still remember the binding (since neither lost power). The Phantom continues looking for signals from that bound controller. When you flip S1 back to normal flight, the full handshake does not have to reoccur because both the controller and the Phantom have remembered who they're communicating with. And when each receives data from the appropriate counterpart, they go right on communicating as if nothing has happened.

That's the difference.
 
ProfessorStein said:
tizzl10 said:
I disagree.. when you say "so it doesn't lose its binding" to me, that means losing the complete ability to communicate the transmitter with the aircraft unless you go through the rebinding process.. this is simply not true. Furthermore, the controller does not have any knowledge of your home location.. all of that data is stored on the aircraft at the time home location is set. Fact is, I find absolutely nothing is wrong with turning off the transmitter in order to initiate RTH. I do it all of the time on my distance flights and it has yet to fail me.

I think there are two things going on, here.

The first is a misunderstanding of what "binding" is. Binding is NOT just the connection. It's how that connection is bound together between the components of the system.

When you turn on your RC, and then turn on your Phantom, there's a handshake that occurs. The Phantom passes info about itself to the controller, which the controller stores as the "target", and the Phantom in turn stores info about the controller so it knows who's talking to it. That is "binding". And that binding is kept (stored) for as long as the controller and Phantom are powered on.

When you power off the controller, it not only breaks the connection, but also forgets the binding. So that when you power it back on, the RC and the Phantom have to go through the entire handshaking process again to re-initiate the binding. Sometimes this is successful, sometimes it is not.


But the second thing is a misunderstanding (or, rather, an assumption) of what's happening when you use S1 to switch over to RTH.

When S1 is thrown, the controller is actually sending a command to the Phantom to initiate RTH. My belief is that the "Lost connection" error you're seeing in the app is actually a red herring... errantly popping up because the app has detected that the Phantom is executing a RTH. But even if it wasn't... even if S1 breaks the connection (and there's no reason to believe that it does... it's not like S1 is tied into the power bus of the controller)... both the controller and the Phantom still remember the binding (since neither lost power). The Phantom continues looking for signals from that bound controller. When you flip S1 back to normal flight, the full handshake does not have to reoccur because both the controller and the Phantom have remembered who they're communicating with. And when each receives data from the appropriate counterpart, they go right on communicating as if nothing has happened.

That's the difference.

I can see they call you professor for good reason. Brilliant explanation. And makes sense. I think now we know. Hard to dispute.

Edit: changed my double negative to a positive. lol
 
BlackTracer said:
Are you suggesting that DJI has programmed in some other mode into the phantom firmware that handles this? I seriously doubt that.

It's not another mode. It's all the same mode. DJI has "programmed in" Return to Home mode. That mode can be activated either when the Phantom loses communication with the RC, OR when a command to initiate is received. Think of RTH as a function, that can be called several different ways. It's pretty simple, and I'm absolutely sure that DJI provided for this.


One very simple test you can run is...

Test RTH by turning off the RC, wait for a bit, and then turn the RC back on. Time how long it takes for the orange RTH LEDs to turn to green. There is a delay. That delay is however long it takes for the full handshake to occur.

Now test RTH by switching S1. Wait for a bit, and then flip S1 back to normal flight. The LEDs switch to green nearly instantaneously. That's because there is no handshake that needs to occur. Because the binding still exists (and, in truth, I'm betting even the TX communication still exists).
 
ProfessorStein said:
BlackTracer said:
Are you suggesting that DJI has programmed in some other mode into the phantom firmware that handles this? I seriously doubt that.

It's not another mode. It's all the same mode. DJI has "programmed in" Return to Home mode. That mode can be activated either when the Phantom loses communication with the RC, OR when a command to initiate is received. Think of RTH as a function, that can be called several different ways. It's pretty simple, and I'm absolutely sure that DJI provided for this.


One very simple test you can run is...

Test RTH by turning off the RC, wait for a bit, and then turn the RC back on. Time how long it takes for the orange RTH LEDs to turn to green. There is a delay. That delay is however long it takes for the full handshake to occur.

Now test RTH by switching S1. Wait for a bit, and then flip S1 back to normal flight. The LEDs switch to green nearly instantaneously. That's because there is no handshake that needs to occur. Because the binding still exists (and, in truth, I'm betting even the TX communication still exists).

yes, this makes sense and i dont argue that point..
 
BlackTracer said:
ProfessorStein said:
tizzl10 said:
I disagree.. when you say "so it doesn't lose its binding" to me, that means losing the complete ability to communicate the transmitter with the aircraft unless you go through the rebinding process.. this is simply not true. Furthermore, the controller does not have any knowledge of your home location.. all of that data is stored on the aircraft at the time home location is set. Fact is, I find absolutely nothing is wrong with turning off the transmitter in order to initiate RTH. I do it all of the time on my distance flights and it has yet to fail me.

I think there are two things going on, here.

The first is a misunderstanding of what "binding" is. Binding is NOT just the connection. It's how that connection is bound together between the components of the system.

When you turn on your RC, and then turn on your Phantom, there's a handshake that occurs. The Phantom passes info about itself to the controller, which the controller stores as the "target", and the Phantom in turn stores info about the controller so it knows who's talking to it. That is "binding". And that binding is kept (stored) for as long as the controller and Phantom are powered on.

When you power off the controller, it not only breaks the connection, but also forgets the binding. So that when you power it back on, the RC and the Phantom have to go through the entire handshaking process again to re-initiate the binding. Sometimes this is successful, sometimes it is not.


But the second thing is a misunderstanding (or, rather, an assumption) of what's happening when you use S1 to switch over to RTH.

When S1 is thrown, the controller is actually sending a command to the Phantom to initiate RTH. My belief is that the "Lost connection" error you're seeing in the app is actually a red herring... errantly popping up because the app has detected that the Phantom is executing a RTH. But even if it wasn't... even if S1 breaks the connection (and there's no reason to believe that it does... it's not like S1 is tied into the power bus of the controller)... both the controller and the Phantom still remember the binding (since neither lost power). The Phantom continues looking for signals from that bound controller. When you flip S1 back to normal flight, the full handshake does not have to reoccur because both the controller and the Phantom have remembered who they're communicating with. And when each receives data from the appropriate counterpart, they go right on communicating as if nothing has happened.

That's the difference.

I don't doubt the handshake explanation... however with regard to your statement

"even if S1 breaks the connection (and there's no reason to believe that it does... it's not like S1 is tied into the power bus of the controller)... both the controller and the Phantom still remember the binding"...

how do we know that the handshake doesn't rely on the control signal? How do we know that a new handshake isn't required once the control signal is re-established regardless of method?

My reason for believing that the control signal is lost via 'S1 to fail-safe' switch is based on the literal interpretation of DJI's app stating 'Loss of Control Signal'... I'm not speculating to the contrary or assuming it's a red herring... It actually makes total sense to me that since DJI already had one algorithm that initiated an RTH according to a loss of control signal, that they would choose to implement the same algorithm by cutting the control signal via software upon command by switching S1. Is there a white paper from DJI or something that makes it clear that this handshake as you described is not required a second time when regaining control via S1 only (as opposed to turning the controller back on)? or is this speculation on your part? I'm not saying that you're wrong. You very well could be right; however, I'm a little suspicious of the fact that you could lose a control signal in both circumstances, but one method would require a new handshake and the other would not...
 
i think what we are looking at here is that both ways will initiate a RTH, and it would be good to test it both ways, manual with S1, and by turning the controller off. Suppose for what ever reason (I know, unlikely), it works with S1 but not by turning the controller off. wouldn't you want to know this in a controlled environment? and vice versa, so I think which ever way, it would be best to test both ways.
 
I would like to throw in a question here. I have the Phantom 1.1.1 and been flying for a couple months. I had a hard time trying to decide how to set up the S1 switch. I like the idea of the low position being failsafe. Mine is set to manual for a couple of reasons. One, to learn how to fly without help from the system in case it is going crazy and 2nd, When I lift off in gps mode it is slow and draggy. I flip to manual and it pops right up with no lag and I then go to gps or atti. Works well for me. I would like to have a failsafe switch but I had to make a choice. I can always turn the tx off but I don't really care for that. Is my thinking wrong. To me, turning off tx is my last ditch effort. I am on stock gain settings.
 
mtsoule said:
i think what we are looking at here is that both ways will initiate a RTH, and it would be good to test it both ways, manual with S1, and by turning the controller off. Suppose for what ever reason (I know, unlikely), it works with S1 but not by turning the controller off. wouldn't you want to know this in a controlled environment? and vice versa, so I think which ever way, it would be best to test both ways.
That's not the question. We already know it works with S1. NAZA mode has an option via the assistance software to program S1 for a failsafe option. It's designed to work that way, and it does. I've tested it. The controversial question to be answered here is whether or not it is truly more 'safe' to initiate RTH via a flip of the S1 switch vs. turning the controller off. Certain folks feel it's more safe to initiate via S1 since they feel there is an added risk an a rebinding process that presumably is required when turning true controller off and back on, but not required when leaving the controller and flipping S1. My argument is that since DJI chose to implement the failsafe S1 feature by severing the control signal via the software (as identified by the message that pops up via the app), that it is functionally equivalent to turning the controller off. Someone made the argument that basically dismisses any dependency of this binding process from the control signal. Until I see something from DJI on this or some other white paper explaining or proving this (i'm awaiting word back from a question on this to DJI) I believe certain claims are speculation and/or assumptions. Assuming that DJI's message that pops up stating 'control signal lost' (when initiating RTH via S1) is correct, it's my assumption that the binding process occurs at the time of initiating a control signal and whether or not the controller was previously turned off or not has no bearing on it, therefore there is no more or less risk in either method. I believe the break in communication and the re-establishment of communication in either method to be functionally equivalent...
 
Monte55 said:
I would like to throw in a question here. I have the Phantom 1.1.1 and been flying for a couple months. I had a hard time trying to decide how to set up the S1 switch. I like the idea of the low position being failsafe. Mine is set to manual for a couple of reasons. One, to learn how to fly without help from the system in case it is going crazy and 2nd, When I lift off in gps mode it is slow and draggy. I flip to manual and it pops right up with no lag and I then go to gps or atti. Works well for me. I would like to have a failsafe switch but I had to make a choice. I can always turn the tx off but I don't really care for that. Is my thinking wrong. To me, turning off tx is my last ditch effort. I am on stock gain settings.
I know it feels more 'safe' to never turn off the controller, and I believe if DJI chose to implement their S1 failsafe feature by not severing the control signal via software, there would be some merit to this... however, it appears (based on their decision to leave the message 'control signal lost' when initiating the S1 failsafe feature) that this is not the case. Essentially the power cycle of the controller is functionally equivalent to flipping S1 to failsafe... Your power switch can be your 4th S1 switch for failsafe and would be no different than using S1 to bottom most position for failsafe.. Just my opinion!
 
I would like to think naza rth is better ;)

If so I wish dji would program out the lost connection message.

They can do that while they are adding the h-lock, c-lock messages. Oh yea I want home position set to flash on my fpv too!
 
srandall25 said:
Monte55 said:
I would like to throw in a question here. I have the Phantom 1.1.1 and been flying for a couple months. I had a hard time trying to decide how to set up the S1 switch. I like the idea of the low position being failsafe. Mine is set to manual for a couple of reasons. One, to learn how to fly without help from the system in case it is going crazy and 2nd, When I lift off in gps mode it is slow and draggy. I flip to manual and it pops right up with no lag and I then go to gps or atti. Works well for me. I would like to have a failsafe switch but I had to make a choice. I can always turn the tx off but I don't really care for that. Is my thinking wrong. To me, turning off tx is my last ditch effort. I am on stock gain settings.
I know it feels more 'safe' to never turn off the controller, and I believe if DJI chose to implement their S1 failsafe feature by not severing the control signal via software, there would be some merit to this... however, it appears (based on their decision to leave the message 'control signal lost' when initiating the S1 failsafe feature) that this is not the case. Essentially the power cycle of the controller is functionally equivalent to flipping S1 to failsafe... Your power switch can be your 4th S1 switch for failsafe and would be no different than using S1 to bottom most position for failsafe.. Just my opinion!

This is incorrect. There are differences between the two. Maybe from your point of view the technical messages are the same, but with what matters on how we can control the quad--it is different.

When I required my first RTH, I didn't have the S1 failsafe enabled. I turned off the tx to let the phantom come home. When the Phantom got into sight I flipped the power to the TX back on, but was unable to gain control. It had to land itself. I had to turn off the Phantom and redo the startup process (TX on first, then quad).

It is safer and smarter to use RTH with the S1 switch--if you want to continue thinking it's the same either way, please be my guest. Just cross your fingers that the RTH location is correct.
 
srandall25 said:
My argument is that since DJI chose to implement the failsafe S1 feature by severing the control signal via the software (as identified by the message that pops up via the app), that it is functionally equivalent to turning the controller off. [...] I believe the break in communication and the re-establishment of communication in either method to be functionally equivalent...

Just because the app displays the same message does not mean they are the same. In the RC world if you turn off the tx to any RC device, you lose the link. If you turn it back on, most times it will not connect. My RC heli's only my signature act that way--my Phantom 1.1.1, the only time I ever turned off the TX, did the same.

I really could care less if I persuade you or the other couple on this thread to believe me or not, but for the other users reading these posts, they have to know that there is a distinct difference. I've experienced it first hand.
 

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