Real estate for rookies

[GadgetGuy]

I think I should frame this statement and put it on display in my office.
You just made a great picture of your country, of your fellows Americans, your laws and your means to enforce them.
Sorry, I don't think this is the way it works. In Somalia maybe...
I can't carry on arguing with someone like you. I should have stopped at your first answer.

Feel free to do so! Sorry, but that is the way it works here, and I live in reality, and not in the dreamland of your fictional utopia. You don't live in this country, so how could you know? More importantly, who are you to tell us how it should work? You have your legal system and we have ours, and there is a reason we left yours behind!

 

[sergekouper]

I suggest you do some googling on the term 'burden of proof' because you don't seem to understand the concept. I made no claim, YOU did. You are the one who suggest there was a real and measurable risk of disfiguring a little girl while doing real estate photography. You made that claim. You did. The burden of proof is on you to produce the data to support it. I simply asked you to do just that.



Agreed. It doesn't change the fact that the parks of the world are likely loaded with individuals flying their drones around in parks without insurance.



What more trouble? I mean that is really the point of this entire conversation. The belief is if you fly for money without a 333 you'll somehow be on the hook for more damages than you would if you had a 333. So far, I'm not seeing that. The FAA? They're not really policing this all that aggressively at this point. And when they do? They send threatening letters and that's about it. Liability? Its EXACTLY what it would be if you were flying your drone in a park without insurance which is what TONS of people do right now.



Getting each of my several pilot certificates taught me a bunch. Using them to make a living taught me even more. But none of that taught me any amount of common sense, I had plenty that to begin with. None of my pilot certs nor my flight experience taught me anything about liability exposure either. Again, you learn that elsewhere.

And having been on both sides of the fence, I would argue that an individual with common sense and a healthy knowledge of liability risk is going to way safer than someone with an sport pilot cert and no common sense nor any idea how liability works. That is my opinion only and you are completely entitled to disagree and I'm sure you will.

Lets try another and last time, I have more important things to do:

- You are the one responsible and accountable for your aicraft. It would take 3 seconds to take your" burden of proof" apart after a corporel accident.
- Since you mention the "parks of the world" come and check the UK if you can fly your drones in a park without being duly authorised. Our AMA equivalent insurance doesn't cover pilots out of the fields allocated to the clubs for practice. You break, you pay. got it?
- If I make money in the same park filming something: I break, I don't pay.(if I went by the book , which I do)
- More trouble without a 333 means, possibly jail time, and again, the big bill to pay, which if the exact same thing happens to me, my insurance will cover, and offer me legal defence.
- I agree that an individual with common sense and a healthy knowledge of liability risk is going to way safer than someone with an sport pilot cert and no common sense nor any idea how liability works. But frankly, is it the way you see your colleagues cert pilots?

 

[sergekouper]

Feel free to do so! Sorry, but that is the way it works here, and I live in reality, and not in the dreamland of your fictional utopia. You don't live in this country, so how could you know? More importantly, who are you to tell us how it should work? You have your legal system and we have ours, and there is a reason we left yours behind!

Isn' he cute?

 

[GadgetGuy]

Isn' he cute?

Still admiring my now framed post on your wall, are you?
You are welcome!
It should be a healthy reminder of how the real world works!
Now, back to your more important things to do...

 

[aburkefl]

Sounds fair enough, but how would you go about a 10 minute movie?

Personally speaking, unless you're shooting something incredibly large and/or complex, a 10-minute movie is too long. (Pssst - think "clip") If you truly need something with enormous detail, a still photo produces the 1000-word effect. When someone shoots a video and posts it here on other forums, the very first thing I look for is how long the video lasts. If it's more than a couple of minutes, I tend to move on. You don't have to shoot an hour pic of the Everglades (yes, I know, you can't fly there legally anyway!) to give people the idea.

 

[Vanjo Grale]

Sorry to see this thread devolve into a bunch of back and forth. Hasn't the 333 horse been beaten into glue already?

Anyway, back to offering actual photographic advice - while early and late "golden hour" shots are nice, I typically go at midday to avoid shadows on half the house. My videos are 1 minute tops, usually shooting the house from ground level, then going to about 200 feet and doing slow and steady 360 with the camera adusted to have the horizon right at the top of the frame. The hardest part is doing smooth video - stills are easy. Take lots of them, from low and high angles to show the property and surroundings. Once you get really comfortable, you can start doing "Point of Interest" shots with the house centered in the frame while you circle it. If there is ANYTHING nearby that you might hit, take a spotter with you so you can focus on the video. I always look for powerlines, kites, trees, whatever before lifting off, but it's hard to shoot good video while watching your drone.

 

[SebGodsmark]

Isn't it funny that the only ones talking sense in this thread are the people like myself who have permission for aerial work, or equivalent.
Everyone else is talking bollocks
It's black and white, if you want to make any sort of commercial gain then get the piece of paper that allows you to do so, if you fly for fun then carry on

 

[Bryce]

Isn't it funny that the only ones talking sense in this thread are the people like myself who have permission for aerial work, or equivalent.
Everyone else is talking bollocks
It's black and white, if you want to make any sort of commercial gain then get the piece of paper that allows you to do so, if you fly for fun then carry on

We are already allowed to do so. Also, it's not commercial gain, it's personal gain.

 

[kirk2579]

Better go learn to fly real airplanes then. As of right now, no one without a pilot certificate can legally fly a drone for money. Looks like that's going to change in a year or two but as of right now, that's how it is.

As for getting legal just shoot some real estate here and there? Ah I'm not sure how I feel about it anymore. I used to be a big proponent of doing everything by the book. But the FAA is being completely irrational in what they require right now and the simple fact is for every single operator who is following the letter of the law and doing it 100% legal, there's probably another ten who aren't the least bit legal.

So when the outlaws out number the law abiders by ten to one and no one is dying or getting hurt as a result? Well lets just say I have a much more difficult time being a stickler for getting 100% legal when the big picture of it all is considered.

...and now I will be completely slammed and shunned by the forum legal sticklers in 3.... 2.... 1....

You are 100% correct---for the US

However the OP is in Canada and they have somewhat different regulations than we do.

Your next to last line pretty much sums it up in US though!

take care and have fun flying!

 

[kirk2579]

Maybe so but it will be interesting to see what happens in this case then.

Student faces up to 12 months in prison after drone crashes into sports stadium

it will never happen, it will go away for a small fine!
they always start out big and settle small.

 

[kirk2579]

4

Fortunately not everybody fly recklessly with no consideration for safety of persons and property. As a CAA certified RP, I try to help those who don't know about how the things work beyond pushing on the sticks, but it seems to be a difficult task in some instances.

Please don't take this wrong. But it appears you are saying that only "certified folks" like your self are capable of safe an non rogue flying!

The paper work does NOT make a better or more capable operator in any way. It simply means you have met legal requirements to do certain activities--IN YOUR COUNTRY!

I put my 400 plus flights and ability to fly safely and be aware of the "rules" against yours any time.

Congratulations on getting those certs, Please don't let if make your head too large.

we are all here for the same basic reason, to fly, have fun , and maybe when possible make some money. everyone get over one selves and have fun.

Good luck and have fun flying!

 

[johan]

Lets try another and last time, I have more important things to do:

- You are the one responsible and accountable for your aicraft. It would take 3 seconds to take your" burden of proof" apart after a corporel accident.

Mmm'Kay. So do it. I've got 3 seconds, I'll wait. You made the claim. Prove it. I'm waiting...

- Since you mention the "parks of the world" come and check the UK if you can fly your drones in a park without being duly authorised. Our AMA equivalent insurance doesn't cover pilots out of the fields allocated to the clubs for practice. You break, you pay. got it?

Ah finally... You got me. I officially recant my previous statement where I said 'parks of the world' revise it to 'parks of the US'. Happy now?

- If I make money in the same park filming something: I break, I don't pay.(if I went by the book , which I do)

This is true if, and only if, you carry liability insurance. Which currently is NOT required by law. And I think you would be shocked by how many don't bother with it. Smart? Nope. But reality? Yep. They fact that you opt to do it (I'll admit I'm assuming here, it may well be required in your part of the world, but I'm going by the rules here where I live) is great and probably good business sense. But I've known many, many individuals who created and ran side businesses or 'hobby businesses' in my day and almost none of them were insured. If they were, they'd have lost much more money than they ever made. You can argue the wisdom (or lack) of that all you like and I'd probably agree with you. But the fact remains that here in the real world, that's how it is.

- More trouble without a 333 means, possibly jail time, and again, the big bill to pay, which if the exact same thing happens to me, my insurance will cover, and offer me legal defence.

Again, burden of proof time. You're making a claim that operating for commercial purposes without a 333 can equal jail time. Prove it. Show me one such case. Just one. I'm waiting.

- I agree that an individual with common sense and a healthy knowledge of liability risk is going to way safer than someone with an sport pilot cert and no common sense nor any idea how liability works. But frankly, is it the way you see your colleagues cert pilots?

Quite frankly, yes. Maybe I'm just too picky, but in my time as a recreational pilot first, and a commercial pilot later, I came to know way more pilots that I wouldn't trust my family to than those I would. I can count on one hand with fingers left over the number of guys I'd let my wife get into a plane with if I wasn't also going to be sitting in a seat with working controls in front of me. One hand with fingers left over.

Being a private (and sometimes commercial) pilot doesn't make you God. Doesn't make you smart. Doesn't even make you particularly knowledgeable in many cases. It just means you logged the required training and found a DE who thought you could stumble through a checkride in an acceptable manner on a good day. You'd be shocked at how many private pilots I've known who couldn't navigate more than 100 miles from their home airport if their lives depended on it. I could tell stories for hours about the idiotic things I've seen some of my former colleges do. Harsh? Maybe. But is how I feel. Sue me.

 

[kirk2579]

A neighbor's house just went up for sale, under duress (lost job & impending divorce). I am considering taking some photos and vids for him to put up on his listing, just as a favor... No charge. I would offer mostly for selfish reasons: I love flying & areal photography, and I want him to get maximum possible price since his home's resale price impacts my home's value.

Would I be breaking the law if I did a shoot, put the images & videos on a thumb drive?

have fun, now you have a demo for the future!

 

[kirk2579]

1. you don't have any report in hand, no data, you improvise and think it has some value. I don't buy it. get some figures first, your analyse is laughable.
2. Ignorance is not an excuse, you have to know what you're doing.
3. It is not allowed to do business with a drone unless you have a 333 exemption. Doing so you expose yourself to more trouble. for the ignorants that didn't have a clue they could hurt somebody, refer to answer 2.
4. There is no real difference indeed in terms of risk. Recreational users are not my target but illegal professionals. Why? because to be authorized to fly commercially you have to receive full tuition about many sides of aviation requirements, that make a serious difference at all levels with people like you who just consider their own little person. You learn to technically fly safely and are rewarded by getting a license from a government body. This is not nothing. So when you read about not being a big deal to make cash on the side with no insurance, clipping a roof, braking a window, or denting a car, it is quite shocking and my first reaction is to inform, and certainly not let go because the ignorants are more numerous.
I believe actually that you and at least another one here are not representing in anyway the majority, but feel for some reason they have the mission to free the world from the contraints to be conscious and responsible, and held accountable for their actions. Doesn't work this way, I don't wish you to see it for yourself, but at the end of the day I don't care, I am on the right side of the fence, you're not. This is your choice.

Thank you for your posts, I have had a ball reading them.

You are both funny and stuck on yourself! very entertaining.

FYI do you know what is needed for a "333" exemption in the US. ?
If not , it is simply a request in writing saying what you want to do with what and why etc.
Unsure how that makes one a "better" operator

 

[kirk2579]

Thank you for that. (even if I don't know what you mean 1%'ers...) That said, I'm not perfect in many ways and definitely don't outclass everyone on this forum with my skills and respect for the others around me...
However, you think you represent the majority of users, you definitely don't. Most people here are not anarchists thinking they can do whatever they want. You cannot talk in their name. Actually you're quite on your own when people read your opinions about legal business, insurance, damage to persons and property, in this very thread, not mentioning the posts (yours and mine) that have been moderated.
I can't speak for the majority either, but I have chosen to be licensed, to work legally with my drones (since this is the discussion here) and received valuable tuition to do so, as well as a government approved license and permission to operate commercially. As Lofty said, you only know once you have taken the courses. Try it, you will definitely change your mind.

I think I should frame this statement and put it on display in my office.
You just made a great picture of your country, of your fellows Americans, your laws and your means to enforce them.
Sorry, I don't think this is the way it works. In Somalia maybe...
I can't carry on arguing with someone like you. I should have stopped at your first answer.

I have learned something today, I was beginning to the think the US was no longer as free and independent as the US I grew up in.

After reading how the rest of the world has given up to total big brother I still have hope for us in the US.

For the moment the government in the US still works for us mostly, vs us for them like it seems this guy likes so much.

 

[kirk2579]

Isn' he cute?

Nope! but pretty much accurate!

 

[Huskerfan]

While you guys were comparing **** sizes I went and produced another video to help out the OP. hit the high points and fly straight!

 

[Bryce]

While you guys were comparing **** sizes I went and produced another video to help out the OP. hit the high points and fly straight!

My god.... I hope you had your 333 for that or you'll be in jail soon. How many horses died because of this lack of credentials?

Cool!

 

[SebGodsmark]

We are already allowed to do so. Also, it's not commercial gain, it's personal gain.

Thanks for reiterating my point!

 

[Bryce]

Thanks for reiterating my point!

No problem... now everyone... off to non '333' paid flights!