Photos of Violations

Civil? Ok maybe, as he could be considered a "volunteer". Civil would usually be associated with the person being employed by a government agency i.e. federal, state,municipality.

People share their "recreational" videos on this board all the time - what makes them recreational any more than him sharing them at some other forum such as one on a government site?

He flies, photographs, and shares just like people here.

The only difference is that somebody who is breaking the law in the photos may get attention paid to them.

Given "intent" could be considered here, but still not a commercial operation.
"Civil aircraft means aircraft other than public aircraft."

This is exactly why I just went and got my 107 ASAP, then there is no question, just fly as commercial.
 
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Absolutely this would be CIVIL (forget commercial as it only muddies the water) which is Part 107 all day long.

You are either flying 100% recreationally (meaning for the sake of flying for fun) or you are flying in a CIVIL manner. Civil CAN mean making money but it also encompasses Search & Rescue, Volunteer Work and so much more. (This excludes flying on a Public COA as that's a whole other topic).

If the OP were merely taking these pictures to put in his scrap book (some people here may not remember those LOL) it would be one thing. But he is taking them to "do something" with them. His INTENT of the flight is not recreational and the images he is taking are 100% not incidental to the flight. He is going out looking for the problems, intentionally flying to capture the problems, and then USING those images in one way or another.

While I fully commend his desire and efforts I think that anyone who would remotely defend this as hobby could be doing a fellow UAS operator a huge disservice. Keep in mind that your advice on the forum could be taken quite strictly by "some" so if you can't go back and provide proof of the latter you really should err on the side of caution to some degree. This has "Can Of Worms" written all over it.
All of the above is fully consistent with everything that the FAA has told us since the inception of Part 107 as well as the actual wording in the Rule. Any other interpretation is just trying to get around the law and is very likely to come back to bite the person in the butt!!
 
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This topic has been debated to exhaustion but the FAA has stated exactly how all air operations are categorized. I've quoted this several times here on the forum but for clarification I'm going to use it again:
Non-Profit Use

Ok I got some clarification. It seems some of the problem stems from our own misunderstanding of the regs and how they were intended. Part 107 does not mean strictly "Commercial Operations" even though everyone (even the FAA) associates Part 107 with Commercial Use. It's even noted as the "Commercial UAS Rules" by the FAA. Commercial Operations are but one portion of what Part 107 encompasses.

Part 107 technically "allows" for "civil" UAS operations. Part of that "civil" operation can certainly be commercial operations but doesn't exclude other flights that are not "Commercial". Therefore, if you are not in compliance with Part 101 and you're not on an Exemption or Public Use COA, you are operating as a civil UAS and Part 107 applies.

Here is a direct quote from him:

"Think of it this way: Everyone is a civil UAS operator, subject to Part 107 (Public Use excluded). Now, Congress mandated that certain operators be left alone (not subject to Part 107) if they are operating as a hobbyist and codified law to describe what a hobbyist operation must adhere to. The FAA took that law and regurgitated it into Part 101. So, if you're going to claim that you are NOT flying under Part 107, you must follow all of Part 101, or else you revert back to Part 107 regulations."


So with that guidance directly from our FAA Liaison I think it's pretty clear (at least from my stand point which may be slightly skewed) that you must fit completely inside the Hobby/Recreational (Part 101) box or you do indeed default back to Part 107 regulations.

**** End of Quotation*****
 
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This topic has been debated to exhaustion but the FAA has stated exactly how all air operations are categorized. I've quoted this several times here on the forum but for clarification I'm going to use it again:
Non-Profit Use

Ok I got some clarification. It seems some of the problem stems from our own misunderstanding of the regs and how they were intended. Part 107 does not mean strictly "Commercial Operations" even though everyone (even the FAA) associates Part 107 with Commercial Use. It's even noted as the "Commercial UAS Rules" by the FAA. Commercial Operations are but one portion of what Part 107 encompasses.

Part 107 technically "allows" for "civil" UAS operations. Part of that "civil" operation can certainly be commercial operations but doesn't exclude other flights that are not "Commercial". Therefore, if you are not in compliance with Part 101 and you're not on an Exemption or Public Use COA, you are operating as a civil UAS and Part 107 applies.

Here is a direct quote from him:

"Think of it this way: Everyone is a civil UAS operator, subject to Part 107 (Public Use excluded). Now, Congress mandated that certain operators be left alone (not subject to Part 107) if they are operating as a hobbyist and codified law to describe what a hobbyist operation must adhere to. The FAA took that law and regurgitated it into Part 101. So, if you're going to claim that you are NOT flying under Part 107, you must follow all of Part 101, or else you revert back to Part 107 regulations."


So with that guidance directly from our FAA Liaison I think it's pretty clear (at least from my stand point which may be slightly skewed) that you must fit completely inside the Hobby/Recreational (Part 101) box or you do indeed default back to Part 107 regulations.

**** End of Quotation*****

Ok, I believe you are correct in this matter. Personally I think anyone flying a UAV should learn about airspace, weather, etc. So getting your 107 is a good way to do that.
Certainly in this case highly recommended.
An interesting case.
 
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Maybe I'm not up to speed on the rules but if you're not flying for compensation, how could you be in violation of anything in this case? Would the FAA be operating by the letter of the law or the spirit of the law?
 
Maybe I'm not up to speed on the rules but if you're not flying for compensation, how could you be in violation of anything in this case? Would the FAA be operating by the letter of the law or the spirit of the law?

If you read the discussion you will see the problem. The determining factor is not compensation, it is whether or not the flight is recreational. Those are not the same criteria. Non-recreational includes anything that is not "flying for fun", as the FAA describes it. Any other purpose, paid or not, makes it not recreational.

In this case the OP has a purpose (a very laudable purpose) that is hard to define as flying for fun.
 
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So flying with a purpose and not for fun OR compensation would be a violation of which FAA regulation? I'm asking out of my own ignorance of the rule. I have just finished reading the previous threads and I'm more clear on the rules, but come on! Seems like if I'm flying to record and report some potential environmental hazard/protection issues, the FAA would be more concerned with the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law.
 
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So flying with a purpose and not for fun OR compensation would be a violation of which FAA regulation? I'm asking out of my own ignorance of the rule.

It would not count as a hobby flight under the Special Rule for Model Aircraft (codified in 14 CFR 101), and so would fall under 14 CFR 107, which requires the operator to be an FAA-certified remote pilot. That's the same requirement as flying commercially (for compensation).

So the answer to your question is that it would breach the requirement to be certified.

@BigAl07 explained it very clearly in post #44.
 
So a hobbyist who happens to find a potential environmental protection violation becomes a violator himself of an FAA rule because he is now flying as an unauthorized Civil UAS operation by reporting a leak in a pipeline for example? He has no Part 107 Cert so now he's subject to discipline?
 
So flying with a purpose and not for fun OR compensation would be a violation of which FAA regulation? I'm asking out of my own ignorance of the rule. I have just finished reading the previous threads and I'm more clear on the rules, but come on! Seems like if I'm flying to record and report some potential environmental hazard/protection issues, the FAA would be more concerned with the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law.

Many like to believe they have found a loop-hole.

If you go flying specifically to look for a lost child (SAR) it's not recreational.
If your flying for fun and spot a lost child it's recreational.

As many have said:
What is/was the PURPOSE of the flight at take-off?
 
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Maybe I'm not up to speed on the rules but if you're not flying for compensation, how could you be in violation of anything in this case? Would the FAA be operating by the letter of the law or the spirit of the law?

I can fully understand your point of view and how this can be (it IS) confusing. Some of us have been playing in this sand box a long time and it can still get confusing with the grey areas and inconsistencies we see throughout the "System".

Every UAS Operator is, by default, operating in a CIVIL (we are excluding Public Use operations as that just muddies the water) manner. Civil can be Industrial, Search & Rescue, Volunteer efforts, Education/Instruction, and does also include Commercial (Commercial does not strictly mean exchange of money). Just don't think of Part 107 as COMMERCIAL because it encompasses so much more. I believe the FAA allowed it to be loosely defined as Commercial Flights just because the vast majority of the uproar over Section 333 requirements was for those of us who wanted to indeed MAKE MONEY with our UAS. So they simply took the easy road and called it or allowed us to call it (incorrectly so) Commercial Operations.

If you do everything by the book for Part 101 (Hobby) operations then you fit into the HOBBY box. Hobby Operations were carved out of Civil Operations mandated by the US Congress in 2012. This special section/group carries protection from any new laws/rules created by the FAA (so long as the flight does NOT pose a significant safety threat to manned aircraft). The caveat here, and it's not been tried in court yet, is that if at any time your flight does not fit perfectly inside that nice neat box called HOBBY then it automatically defaults to Part 107. It's like playing the board game OPERATION. If your "instrument" touches any portion of the perimeter while you are operating you hear and feel the GRRRRRRRR and you killed em LOL!

In order to be a hobby flight you have to be following the HOBBY "guidelines" to a T. One of these is that the flight is purely recreational in nature and only pertains to YOU. If you are doing the flight to create something to promote, notate, document or anything that is not hobby and to you then you've hit the perimeter of Part 101 and should hear that GRRRRRRR sound. Welcome to Part 107 regulations.

The OP is purely doing this (and I think it's a great thing BTW) to document safety violations of a company in order to report these violations. It's not a Commercial endeavor at all but it IS a CIVIL endeavor and would resort back to Part 107 operational regulations.

IMHO the letter of the law and the spirit of the law are one and the same here. When these "guidelines" were carved out by the FAA I think they (FAA) had an idea of what might be on the horizon and carved these rules out begrudgingly and very specifically. They did what they were told to do but they did it in a way to "allow" them to have potential for regulation more than Congress wanted. Keep in mind this mandate was designed to protect the small R/C flying clubs around the nation from being affected by new rules etc. We had an amazing safety record of decades with minimal incidents and no manned aircraft taken out of the sky. This was before GYRO stabilization and GPS positioning built into the aircraft that allows for autonomous flight controls and pure Vertical Take Off and Landing (VTOL). We had to learn to fly the aircraft and if we failed in that respect it simply fell out of the sky in a matter of a few moments and in field or something. Almost all R/C flights were at an R/C airstrip usually out away from people, houses, businesses, and AIRPORTS. Now the aircraft can auto takeoff, land, fly routes, RTH and land with almost (actually in some case NONE) user intervention other than your credit card, charging the battery and hitting the TAKE OFF button on the tablet. It can also have a malfunction in the Flight Controller/Navigation system and "Fly Away" autonomously for miles and miles.

I fully expect us to see a time in the not so distant future when Congress gets involved again and w/o the big deep pockets of R/C Aircraft lobbyists, that mandate from 2012 being pulled back and new regulations imposed upon hobby flights. DRONES is such a negative word in this day and time and so many people fear them and HATE them I don't see the quiet yet LARGE lobbyist support they had in 2012 being available ever again. I've gone around and spoken to groups, classes, departments and even sat down with several law makers and and I can tell you this much, we are a minority and the majority don't want drones anywhere around. The MEDIA has single handedly put several nails in the coffin of DRONES and we need to work together to improve the "image" of our industry/hobby every chance we get.

Sorry about the RANT. :)
 
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So a hobbyist who happens to find a potential environmental protection violation becomes a violator himself of an FAA rule because he is now flying as an unauthorized Civil UAS operation by reporting a leak in a pipeline for example? He has no Part 107 Cert so now he's subject to discipline?
INTENT of the flight here.

Many like to believe they have found a loop-hole.

If you go flying specifically to look for a lost child (SAR) it's not recreational.
If your flying for fun and spot a lost child it's recreational.

As many have said:
What is/was the PURPOSE of the flight at take-off?

This ^^^^^^ is the differentiating point!!

If you HAPPEN to find the violation that's one thing... that was INCIDENTAL to the flight. If you take off looking for a violation then your INTENT was not recreational.

N017RW
and sar104 pretty much nailed it down with MUCH fewer (and better) words than I did LOL.
 
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So a hobbyist who happens to find a potential environmental protection violation becomes a violator himself of an FAA rule because he is now flying as an unauthorized Civil UAS operation by reporting a leak in a pipeline for example? He has no Part 107 Cert so now he's subject to discipline?

No - as pointed out above, if you were to find a violation during a recreational flight and used your photo or video evidence to report it then that would be fine. However, if you repeatedly go back looking for further violations then you are no longer flying recreationally - you now have a different purpose. What is so difficult to understand about this distinction?
 
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So flying with a purpose and not for fun OR compensation would be a violation of which FAA regulation? I'm asking out of my own ignorance of the rule. I have just finished reading the previous threads and I'm more clear on the rules, but come on! Seems like if I'm flying to record and report some potential environmental hazard/protection issues, the FAA would be more concerned with the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law.


Your only fault here is that you forget who/what we are talking about. The Govt doesn't allow for "grey" area much and they don't make many exceptions even for GREAT causes. Let's take Search & Rescue for instance. Most of us do SAR for FREE and in fact it costs us a lot of $$ to do this and it's out of our own pockets not to mention we are putting our equipment and our own safety at risk many times. You would think you could use UAS for Search & Rescue without any type of license requirements because, you're trying to save LIVES. NEGATIVE! It requires Part 107 (it did require Section 333 exemption and an FAA Pilot's License) to do this legally. There have been several instances of UAS not being allowed to fly in support of SAR because of the FAA regulations. Granted many, MANY times the flights were carried out anyway just not well documented but the point is the regulations are there and they aren't negotiable. You'd be shocked at the red take and signatures it takes TODAY for me to fly from the Blue Ridge Parkway in support of our local SAR team. It's gotten a lot better but it still has a ways to go.
 
Whoa lets not get to snarky about this issue sar104! It's been made clear now. Questioning why it's so difficult for me to understand the distinction just because it's clear to YOU speaks volumes about you.
PS
Thanks for YOUR explanation BigAl07
 
The point to take away I think is that the rules are there in order to keep the NAS a safe place to fly, and with technology, the bar to entry in the sport has been lowered to anyone who can open a box.
Having the rules this way are to try to get everyone to educate themselves.
I'm all for education, what this OP is doing is commendable but (not saying this particular guy) could be unsafe if flown by someone without education or experience.

I think a time will come when everyone who flys will have to be certified, unfortunate for those who have many years building model aircraft themselves etc. but the laws are usually written to protect us from the guy who is the lowest common denominator.
 
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Whoa lets not get to snarky about this issue sar104! It's been made clear now. Questioning why it's so difficult for me to understand the distinction just because it's clear to YOU speaks volumes about you.

Apologies - not trying to be snarky. My comment was driven more by the fact that this topic has been beaten to death, but still keeps coming back.
 
but still keeps coming back.
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So flying with a purpose and not for fun OR compensation would be a violation of which FAA regulation? I'm asking out of my own ignorance of the rule. I have just finished reading the previous threads and I'm more clear on the rules, but come on! Seems like if I'm flying to record and report some potential environmental hazard/protection issues, the FAA would be more concerned with the spirit of the law rather than the letter of the law.

Intent in this case if it was me would be simple- "I'm was out fling to get some cool pics of this area and didn't realize at the time that out of the 100 or so pictures I took that day, it appears to me there are a few that show something really interesting."
 
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Intent in this case if it was me would be simple- "I'm was out fling to get some cool pics of this area and didn't realize at the time that out of the 100 or so pictures I took that day, it appears to me there are a few that show something really interesting."


That only works 1X. The OP is going out searching for these closing his very own loophole.
 

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