Yeah that's right. I guess we have totally different shooting conditions to each other. Around where I live I want the full overhead sun for maximum colour saturation to make the area look good for tourists etc. Below is a link to what I am talking about. All aerial stuff shot with ND16. I guess I objected to your sweeping statement that ND filters are a waste of time. Newcomers might ditch all ND's after reading that. Whereas they can be useful at times with the "old" P3 and P4 fixed aperture X3.
Phantom 4 Pro (available in the DJI store)
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GadgetGuy
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Sorry for the confusion. This is, afterall a P4P thread. ND filters definitely have their place with a fixed aperture camera, especially when combined with a PL or GND filter. Most buyers, however, have no comprehension of how they are supposed to be used, and if they did, would probably never have bought them in the first place. The ND filter marketers would have everyone believe that every drone requires ND filters to even shoot video. The truth would put them out of business.
IMHO, your video compilation could have been vastly improved if it wasn't shot at midday. Color saturation has little to do with full overhead sun. Your colors still appear washed out and flat on YouTube. Professional video editing tools like PP CC can saturate color of any video, including those shot during golden hours. ND filters also degrade the image. Every additional element between the lens and the subject contributes to degrading the image. Less is more, unless you absolutely need it!
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The P4P+ can run 3rd party apps (as I've seen reported in several threads.) The only question is whether Litchi, etc. will run and that is TBD.
Very true. Capitalising on newcomers lack of knowledge, wouldn't be the first time this has happened.Sorry for the confusion. This is, afterall a P4P thread. They definitely have their place with a fixed aperture camera, especially when combined with a PL or GND filter. Most buyers, however, have no comprehension of how they are supposed to be used, and if they did, would probably never have bought them in the first place. The ND filter marketers would have everyone believe that every drone requires ND filters to even shoot video. The truth would put them out of business.
In fact it didn't take long, I found a clip where someone tried to fly a P4P into their garage door forward, reverse, and sideways and in all cases it braked and stopped. But they didn't note what mode the unit was in.We won't know for sure until someone intentionally tries to fly sideways into an obstacle during a test. I don't think it will take long
Where did I say anything about lens blurring? Obviously, I was talking about shutter speed blurring, too! That's the ostensible purpose of ND filters in sunlight. The P4P has a 1" sensor. You keep coming back to your personal preference for f/5.6, which gives up 2 stops on the P4P. If you still need 4 stops at f/5.6, then you must need ND64 on the P4 and the P3 fixed f/2.8 lens. The highest filter sold is ND32. You must be stacking filters! You are off on the extreme fringe of users, and are hardly representative of P4P purchasers, who will have no need for any ND filters, unless they need ND32 or higher (that's apparently you, and I already stated that exception earlier). If you are now suggesting that f/8 and f/11 on the 1" sensor of the P4P will be unusable because of diffraction, that's news to me and everyone buying it!
Where did you say anything about lens blurring -- how about this "Diffraction limiting resolution at less than f/11, especially on video frames that are designed to be smeary and motion blurred" What, exactly, was the nonsense about 'smearing'.
And, I did not say f/8 would be unusable, nor f/11 -- you're making that crap up! It is a fact that diffraction begins to kick in at about f/4 but is typically not very noticeable until about f/7.1. When shooting stills from the ground as I do with my Nikon D800E, I tend to shoot around f/6.3 to f/8 depending on the proximity of nearby objects and how much of the scene and detail I want in focus. I will sometimes go up to f/16 and even higher when max DOF is needed but doing so very noticeably effects resolution due to diffraction. For a drone, shooting stills or video from a perspective 50 feet or more away from the closest object there is seldom much need to operate at high f/# to get the desired DOF as you don't have things all that close to you. In this regard drone pics and video are a different beast than similar images captured from a near ground perspective -- this is an inescapable fact of trigonometry and optics.
When you want a limited DOF you need to open the aperture and be quite close. Cameras with smaller sensors tend to have greater DOF anyway so there is once again less need for stopping down. Running with an aperture in the f/4-f/6.3 range on a drone gets you all the DOF you could want with very little diffraction limiting, BUT, to maintain the ballpark 2X shutter speed versus frame rate requires limiting the light.
There is no way around physics!
Brian
I will be getting ND filters (and have some high stop ND gel sheets if required), great for long exposure daytime shots
GadgetGuy
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I was quoting and disputing your original post, and now you are arguing with yourself, not me! "I try to keep the aperture in the f/4-f/6.3 range to avoid diffraction limiting resolution". Your words, not mine!
I don't need a lecture from you on physics, nor on photography. Using analogies from full frame DSLR's that you admit are not relevant here is not helpful to the subject at hand. This is the P4P thread. The P4P requires no ND filters unless you are already using ND32 on a P3P or P4. Your personal choice to limit your aperture to f/5.6 on the P4P so you can justify using ND filters to avoid using f/8 and f/11 is yours alone. Everyone else will, instead, be using f/8 and f/11, as needed, to get their shutter speed to twice the frame rate, without using ND filters. It has nothing to do with wanting more DOF! I was quoting and disputing your original post, and now you are arguing with yourself, not me! "I try to keep the aperture in the f/4-f/6.3 range to avoid diffraction limiting resolution". Your words, not mine!
The P4P has a 1 inch sensor -- much larger than earlier models of Phantoms and in the same league as DSLR's and M43 cameras -- check the specs!
Repeating my statement about trying to keep the aperture in the f/4-f/6.3 range to avoid diffraction limiting doesn't change anything -- I try to keep the aperture in the f/4-f/6.3 range because I want the sharpest video possible and do not want to add blurring when I don't have to. When I shoot from aground perspective, with an even larger DSLR sensor, you are forced to shoot with a somewhat higher f/# to account for the fact that you tend to have close objects and thus need a greater DOF AND larger sensors tend to have shallower DOF at a given f/#. A smartphone with a fixed f/2.8 lens can have a pretty decent FOV at f/2.8, but a DSLR with a larger sensor will have a shallow DOF at f/2.8.
So, putting it all together, a drone tends to have less nearby objects except when that's specifically the goal and can safely get away with a smaller f/#. The sensor on these new drones is much larger than earlier Phantoms but smaller than a full frame DSLR. In my extensive experience I get maximum detail from my FF Nikon D800E when shooting at about f/6.3 to f/7.1. Stopping down increases DOF but increases blurring due to diffraction -- a fact that is not arguable! And, this is something that can easily be tested: setup a tripod and shoot the exact same scene at differing f/# in RAW and then compare file size. The images with the greatest detail will tend to be the ones with the largest file sizes. So, if in a given situation f/7.1 produces the greatest file size and most detail you could increase the DOF a bit by increasing the f/# to, say, f/11 but doing so would actually reduce detail due to diffraction. Sorry, its the law!
Brian
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I have no idea why you persist in rejustifying your personal choices. Do as you wish. The P4P users that care about video shutter speed will be using f/8 and f/11, as necessary, on the fly to get the results they want, without needing to resort to using unnecessary ND filters. We can both agree that most lenses are sharpest at their middle aperture. For the few times in mid video that f/8 or f/11 may be needed for maintaining the proper shutterspeed, making that change in the air from the remote, rather than landing and changing ND filters is a no brainer. You do what you want. The rest of us will, too!
What's a HAVE hood? I've tried a bunch of different things and have had zero luck. Again. If their tablet works in direct sunlight, I'm all over it.
-slinger
Sorry, should have posted the link as well. Below is a clip where the operator tests collision avoidance on the P4Pro front, back, and sideways. Skip to 0:55 in the video.
Also note in the comments section, when the author was asked:
"I thought side detection only worked in tripod mode or beginner mode . did you find otherwise ?"
and he answered:
"No, the side (IR) Avoidance works all the time, (given you are in P-Mode), in Beginner mode the Horizontal FOV of the sensors is just a bit higher. "
For daytime shooting an ND8 probably makes the most sense, you'll still have to stop down to F4-5.6 in bright conditions to hit 180 deg shutter. If you move into the shadows somewhere or clouds roll in you'll still be able to open her up 2 stops without touching ISO. You'll also have 2 stops available for faster shutter speeds when taking stills (1/250 sec) at F2.8.
I'd stay away from using F11 when possible, diffraction will definitely be a factor based on the pixel size of the 20Mp sensor... especially for landscapes.
I'd stay away from using F11 when possible, diffraction will definitely be a factor based on the pixel size of the 20Mp sensor... especially for landscapes.
And, for that matter, I'd love to know if the obstacle avoidance can see tower guy wires (which probably fall under the same general size as power lines). That would make tower photography a lot less stressful. Even though I fly with a spotter, it would be nice to know the bird will do its best to avoid flying into a guy wire if I make a bone head mistake!
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