Mountain or gorge flying and 400 ft. ceiling question

[Meta4]

I was always wondering what happens if your home point is set and you fly over a cliff and drop down say 300 feet. What happens if RTH kicks in? Will it crash into the cliff or will it climb back up to the original home point and then the additional feet set in RTH?

Understanding what RTH does and how it does it is one of the most important things to learn.
I'd suggest studying the three pages on RTH in the manual and doing some practice out in a large open area because the day you want to use RTH is the worst time to start learning RTH.

Unless you have configured the new retracing feature, when RTH is initiated, the Phantom climbs to the set RTH height (and all heights are relative to Home) and then flies directly home.
Whether your Phantom's current height is + or - doesn't make any difference.
If your RTH height is set at 120 feet above home, that's the height it will climb to before returning.

 

[F3honda4me]

400' elevation limit is meant as 400' ABOVE GROUND LEVEL (AGL). Above ground means exactly that, the elevation of the drone to the ground at any point during its flight. This has nothing to do with takeoff elevation (home point) unless you fly in a very large totally flat area.

There are some interesting special cases to that (maybe open for interpretation or discussion). Let's say you fly over the top of a mountain that has a vertical rock wall on the other side that is let's say 2000' tall. As you fly over, at that point the drone will be over 2000' above ground level. Is that a problem? Well, that is where the discussion may come in: The FAA setup this rule to match the manned airplane flight restrictions which I believe do not allow a plane to fly lower than 500' above ground or CLOSER THAN 500' to a mountain side (in our example the vertical wall). In order to avoid collisions, the drone must simply stay within a 400' distance of that wall as long as it is over 400' above ground level.

I just recently flew a mountain video mission that took the P3P over 1630' above the home point, yet the flight path stayed within FAA recommendations throughout the flight path.

Common misconception... there is no law or rule about flying hobby drones above 400 feet. It is a suggestion. Not a rule or restriction.

 

[John Locke]

Common misconception... there is no law or rule about flying hobby drones above 400 feet. It is a suggestion. Not a rule or restriction.

Gee, it sounds like you're OK with flying at 800' AGL, since in your mind 400' is "not a rule or restriction" for the hobbiest. If I'm mistaken on that, what is the max AGL number you're OK with as your limit?

 

[F3honda4me]

Gee, it sounds like you're OK with flying at 800' AGL, since in your mind 400' is "not a rule or restriction" for the hobbiest. If I'm mistaken on that, what is the max AGL number you're OK with as your limit?

To each their own. And it's not "in my mind". It's fact. There is no rule or regulation to 400' for hobbyists. But people commonly make the mistake that there is. If you think I'm wrong then please link the statute or code from the FAA.

 

[Barking Deer]

Hey, if it really is freezing and you want a good read about photography with a drone, check out The Photographer's Guide to Drones by Colin Smith. Available on Amazon.

 

[F3honda4me]

Just to note:

Update - UAS Registration Frequently Asked Questions | AMA Government Relations Blog


Q: Am I permitted to fly above 400 feet? What if I had to check a box saying otherwise on the federal registration website?

A: Yes. AMA members who abide by the AMA Safety Code, which permits flights above 400 feet under appropriate circumstances, and are protected by the Special Rule for Model Aircraft under the 2012 FAA Modernization and Reform Act. Checking the box on the federal registration webpage signifies an understanding of the 400 foot guideline. This is an important safety principle that all UAS operators need to be aware of, and is the same guideline established in AC 91-57 published in 1981. However, the placement of this guideline on the FAA website is intended as an educational piece and more specifically intended for those operating outside of AMA’s safey program. We have been in discussions with the FAA about this point and the agency has indicted that it will be updating its website in the next week to make clear that this altitude guideline is not intended to supplant the guidance and safety procedures established in AMA’s safety program.

 

[Barking Deer]

To each their own. And it's not "in my mind". It's fact. There is no rule or regulation to 400' for hobbyists. But people commonly make the mistake that there is. If you think I'm wrong then please link the statute or code from the FAA.

Hey, take it easy. We are just trying to stay out of each other's way. Planes can, and do, fly as low as 500 AGL. Helicopters can fly lower. No one wants you to crash into another aircraft. It is like the right of way rules in boating or driving a car. No matter who has the right of way, just yield to a larger craft, a jerk who doesn't know the rules, a craft that is less maneuverable, or if you have the last clear chance to avoid a collision. As a practical matter the FAA isn't going to bother you if you occasionally stray into controlled airspace or above 400' but do it often, in a way that endangers the safety of the National Airspace, or fly over a no fly zone and don't be surprised if they come down on you like a ton of bricks.

 

[Barking Deer]

The 400 metres only starts at take off I believe

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I think you mean 400 feet.

 

[F3honda4me]

Hey, take it easy. We are just trying to stay out of each other's way. Planes can, and do, fly as low as 500 AGL. Helicopters can fly lower. No one wants you to crash into another aircraft. It is like the right of way rules in boating or driving a car. No matter who has the right of way, just yield to a larger craft, a jerk who doesn't know the rules, a craft that is less maneuverable, or if you have the last clear chance to avoid a collision. As a practical matter the FAA isn't going to bother you if you occasionally stray into controlled airspace or above 400' but do it often, in a way that endangers the safety of the National Airspace, or fly over a no fly zone and don't be surprised if they come down on you like a ton of bricks.

The FAA can't come after a hobbyist for going over 400 feet in and of itself. There is simply no law against it. However if a hobbyist endangers an aircraft by flying in some reckless manner yes they'll come down on you since there are laws for that. Especially if one is foolish enough to go into controlled airspace! That we agree on!

 

[John Locke]

The FAA can't come after a hobbyist for going over 400 feet in and of itself. There is simply no law against it. However if a hobbyist endangers an aircraft by flying in some reckless manner yes they'll come down on you since there are laws for that. Especially if one is foolish enough to go into controlled airspace! That we agree on!

OK, so it's not illegal to go above 400'AGL as a hobbyist and you cannot be held liable for that, but if you endanger a manned craft by operating in a reckless manner the FAA will come after you for that with liability. It think most people would agree that wandering above 400' AGL could be considered reckless, because it's certainly not safe, and if you were to have the unfortunate situation with a manned aircraft at 500' AGL, you would clearly be considered reckless, and ruin things for the drone community in general. Very nice. So you're passionate about telling people they're safe from the FAA above 400'AGL as a hobbyist, but they aren't if they're reckless. Good luck pleading at your hearing that you thought you were being safe flying above 400' AGL when you have pledged to do otherwise with your FAA hobbyist registration.

IMO you are not being very loyal to the drone community when your start implying is OK to breach the 400' guideline to newbies or other ignorant wood-bee drone pilots. It's not OK with the community because it put all of us at risk.

If there is no rule against flying above 400' AGL, I wonder what this pledge is for when you register your drone as a hobbyist.

 

[F3honda4me]

OK, so it's not illegal to go above 400'AGL as a hobbyist and you cannot be held liable for that, but if you endanger a manned craft by operating in a reckless manner the FAA will come after you for that with liability. It think most people would agree that wandering above 400' AGL could be considered reckless, because it's certainly not safe, and if you were to have the unfortunate situation with a manned aircraft at 500' AGL, you would clearly be considered reckless, and ruin things for the drone community in general. Very nice. So you're passionate about telling people they're safe from the FAA above 400'AGL as a hobbyist, but they aren't if they're reckless. Good luck pleading at your hearing that you thought you were being safe flying above 400' AGL when you have pledged to do otherwise with your FAA hobbyist registration.

IMO you are not being very loyal to the drone community when your start implying is OK to breach the 400' guideline to newbies or other ignorant wood-bee drone pilots. It's not OK with the community because it put all of us at risk.

If there is no rule against flying above 400' AGL, I wonder what this pledge is for when you register your drone as a hobbyist.
View attachment 71257

Notice how the pledge says guideline? Not law. They can make you pledge to "intend" to follow it but it's not lawfully binding. Did you read what I posted from the AMA?

As for the rest, off the soapbox please. Every situation is different. You can't apply a blanket rule to everyone about the 400' guideline and proclaim everyone who flies above it is being reckless. I'm just telling you what the law says, regardless of what some unconstitutional bureaucracy tries to make you believe otherwise.

That said you and I obviously see things differently. No point beating a dead horse after this.

 

[Phantom-Paul]

Now if you live in Australia CASA regulations say that a hobbyist cannot fly above 400 feet (120m) unless your in an approved model flying area or hold the appropriate Remote pilot certificate and follow the correct protocols/procedures for commercial flight.

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[mmpsteve]

My original question was born out of my ignorance, and has been fully answered now, and I thank all involved. As a second question; I plan on flying in an area 60 miles or so north of the Gulf of Mexico, in Alabama. Even though I'm quite a ways from any military base, we routinely see military coptors, jets, and cargo planes flying what we believe to be low altitude training missions; I'm talking really low! The mature pine trees are probably 100 feet tall, and it seems these military craft, especially the coptors, are only 200 feet up or so, and appear very quickly out of nowhere. How best to stay out of their way under these conditions? Is there someone I can call when I'm going to fly? I seriously doubt they're going to give me details about their training missions. Any thoughts on this?

 

[ricphoto]

First thing to do is find out what kind of airspace you're intending to fly in...try: SkyVector: Flight Planning / Aeronautical Charts

That'll give you an idea of who you'll have to call to get permissions, check conditions and if it's a regular training area or route etc.

 

[John Locke]

My original question was born out of my ignorance, and has been fully answered now, and I thank all involved. As a second question; I plan on flying in an area 60 miles or so north of the Gulf of Mexico, in Alabama. Even though I'm quite a ways from any military base, we routinely see military coptors, jets, and cargo planes flying what we believe to be low altitude training missions; I'm talking really low! The mature pine trees are probably 100 feet tall, and it seems these military craft, especially the coptors, are only 200 feet up or so, and appear very quickly out of nowhere. How best to stay out of their way under these conditions? Is there someone I can call when I'm going to fly? I seriously doubt they're going to give me details about their training missions. Any thoughts on this?

You might try calling the local base these craft are flying from and ask if the pilots have minimum flight altitude instructions. Let them know your concern. These craft may be at 500'AGL and just look like they are 200' up because of their size and noise level. If you could get confirmation from the base they rarely fly below 500' (except takeoff and landing), this might make things more comfortable for you. In any case, most the time you can hear those craft coming from miles away. When you hear them you could simply descend to 150' AGL or lower, based on the surrounding obstacles, until they leave your flight theater. It might prove to be some interesting video.

 

[Limp Gimble]

Let's say you fly off a 700 ft cliff, there is also a part that measures the distance you have from the object, in this case the cliff you are allowed to fly legally to allow the descent to regain the 400 ft altitude.


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[GrammatonxXXxCleric]

Taking off from a vista view point 720 ft above sea level I flew 250ft. above that out into gorge. At about 1 min mark. Around 1,000 ft. up over center of the river. And yes, the winds were higher up there...

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[Raptorman0909]

Let's say you fly off a 700 ft cliff, there is also a part that measures the distance you have from the object, in this case the cliff you are allowed to fly legally to allow the descent to regain the 400 ft altitude.


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Can you try again and explain this -- I'm confused at what you're saying. If you fly out over a cliff that is 700 feet high then the drone is going to be at least 700 feet AGL. What does the descending part mean? If you mean that once over the cliff you descend to 400 feet above the ground then how do you get the drone back without climbing back to over 700 feet? Confused by your statement...


Brian

 

[Limp Gimble]

https://www.faa.gov/uas/media/Part_107_Summary.pdf

Good reading material and it will answer your question.


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[JohnnyB]

Can you try again and explain this -- I'm confused at what you're saying. If you fly out over a cliff that is 700 feet high then the drone is going to be at least 700 feet AGL. What does the descending part mean? If you mean that once over the cliff you descend to 400 feet above the ground then how do you get the drone back without climbing back to over 700 feet? Confused by your statement...


Brian

A simple answer is your birds altitude will always stay relevant to your original takeoff location. If you takeoff and go up 10 feet, fly straight out over a 1000 foot cliff, it will still say 10 feet in the go app. If you fly below your takeoff altitude, your altitude reading in your go app will be in the minus. Nothing on the bird or app will give you a new AGL reading unless you do 2 things...
1- fly to the bottom, land, and see what altitude you are in the go app then do the math. Example, If you fly over a cliff, and fly too the bottom and the app says -700', (if it goes that far) to be 400' AGL then, you would have to fly to -300'. But you have to fly to the bottom to get this measurement. ALWAYS relevant to takeoff location.
2 - Fly to the bottom, land, and set new home point, starting a new 0' altitude. I personally would keep my home point close by.

It doesn't matter if it tells you what you are above sea level, or mean sea level, that doesn't tell you where the ground level is as far as the go app is concerned. Even if it did, I wouldn't trust it. Things change. The only "true" way to know and be safe and not crash your bird, is to fly and measure it yourself. Even setting up a litchi mission I wouldn't 100% trust Google earth for all the info needed without flying out for a few measurements myself. (New buildings are built.. etc.)
And, I believe in the manual it says the downward facing sensors only work from 50' AGL down. Maybe less, but close to that.



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