Flying at very low altitudes near airports

[BigAl07]

As far as "five miles," I clearly stated in my second post that I simplified "controlled airspace" by substituting "five miles", as most understand the generic five mile rule, which generally implies controlled airspace to-the-surface to the layperson. To debate that point further is merely being pedantic.

On the recreational issue, it DOES make a difference, because in the above scenario one person stated that the "tower" told him he does not need to call in if flying below 150'. Someone else in the tower may have another opinion. If the pilot has an incident within five miles, but didn't call in because "someone" in the tower once told him he didn't have to, he would potentially be in violation of the notification rule.

And for authorization versus waiver, the FAA informs us, "If you can comply with all of part 107 (without needing a waiver), but need to operate within certain controlled airspace (Class B, C, D, or E surface area), then only request airspace authorization, per section 107.41.” So, are you saying you personally have successfully used a waiver to obtain permission to fly in controlled airspace for long durations like a week, month, year?

You're trying to split hairs and it's pointless to try and convince you otherwise.

In regards to "So, are you saying you personally have successfully used a waiver to obtain permission to fly in controlled airspace for long durations like a week, month, year?"
No I personally have not because I've not requested such. I have professional colleagues who have and more are approved every single day. Spend some time and do some reading and you'll see Airspace Waivers are a REAL thing.

 

[sar104]

If you're a 107 operator (with a license) you do not, have to contact a class G airport.

Agreed. You don't need anything in Class G. I was pointing out that for other classes you need to go through the portal, not contact the airport, since I thought that you were saying that you did that instead.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Agreed. You don't need anything in Class G. I was pointing out that for other classes you need to go through the portal, not contact the airport, since I thought that you were saying that you did that instead.

And agree - for other classes of airports you go through the portal. Point here there that most airports in class G airspace have phone numbers listed on the FAA aircraft directory that are more than likely unmanned. B4UFLY shows a class G airport in my area that's been inop for years!

 

[sar104]

As far as "five miles," I clearly stated in my second post that I simplified "controlled airspace" by substituting "five miles", as most understand the generic five mile rule, which generally implies controlled airspace to-the-surface to the layperson. To debate that point further is merely being pedantic.

On the recreational issue, it DOES make a difference, because in the above scenario one person stated that the "tower" told him he does not need to call in if flying below 150'. Someone else in the tower may have another opinion. If the pilot has an incident within five miles, but didn't call in because "someone" in the tower once told him he didn't have to, he would potentially be in violation of the notification rule.

And for authorization versus waiver, the FAA informs us, "If you can comply with all of part 107 (without needing a waiver), but need to operate within certain controlled airspace (Class B, C, D, or E surface area), then only request airspace authorization, per section 107.41.” So, are you saying you personally have successfully used a waiver to obtain permission to fly in controlled airspace for long durations like a week, month, year?

What the 5 mile rule implies to the layman is irrelevant to Part 107 pilots. There's a difference between a simplification and an incorrect statement.

I think that your specific concern of communication with the tower is valid. I would want the agreement documented to avoid that issue.

On 107.41, I'll refer you to the instructions, which state, for example:

"If applying for airspace authorization or a waiver of section 107.41, the responsible person must supply ATC with the contact information of at least one person operating in controlled airspace under the airspace authorization/waiver."

107.41 is one of the waivable sections of Part 107:

Waivable sections of part 107
Operation from a moving vehicle or aircraft (§ 107.25)*
Daylight operation (§ 107.29)
Visual line of sight aircraft operation (§ 107.31)*
Visual observer (§ 107.33)
Operation of multiple small unmanned aircraft systems (§ 107.35)
Yielding the right of way (§ 107.37(a))
Operation over people (§ 107.39)
Operation in certain airspace (§ 107.41)
Operating limitations for small unmanned aircraft (§ 107.51)

 

[sar104]

And agree - for other classes of airports you go through the portal. Point here there that most airports in class G airspace have phone numbers listed on the FAA aircraft directory that are more than likely unmanned. B4UFLY shows a class G airport in my area that's been inop for years!

Right - but that's only an issue for recreational flying - yes? For Class G airports you don't need to call anyone under Part 107.

 

[maxheadspace]

You might want to get a refresher course in Part 107 and delve into the more recent terminology (aka Airspace Waiver).

The standing terminology from FAA:

Select Regulation(s) and/or Authorization: You must select at least one regulation subject to waiver or airspace authorization. Section 107.41 is subject to ATC authorization. If you can comply with all of part 107 (without needing a waiver), but need to operate within certain controlled airspace (Class B, C, D, or E surface area), then only request airspace authorization, per section 107.41.

Can you point to regulation or FAA notice that modifies this? I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but if it does I would like the cite to be able to appropriately apply this adjustment of the original FAA guidance.

 

[sar104]

The standing terminology from FAA:

Select Regulation(s) and/or Authorization: You must select at least one regulation subject to waiver or airspace authorization. Section 107.41 is subject to ATC authorization. If you can comply with all of part 107 (without needing a waiver), but need to operate within certain controlled airspace (Class B, C, D, or E surface area), then only request airspace authorization, per section 107.41.

Yes - you correctly identified that you can request an airspace authorization but you missed the section below that in the form where you can also request a waiver to 107.41.

 

[Crack The Sky]

If you're a 107 operator (with a license) you do not, have to contact a class G airport.

.
You are wrong. If you are conducting a commercial flight with a valid Part 107 Certificate you do not have to contact an airport that is in Class G. If the flight is for other than a commercial operation, (recreational), you do need to contact the airport in Class G. It is the intent of the flight, not the fact that you happen to hold a Part 107 Cert.

 

[maxheadspace]

Yes - you correctly identified that you can request an airspace authorization but you missed the section below that in the form where you can also request a waiver to 107.41.

View attachment 80224

I did not miss that. The instructions state that flying in the subject controlled airspace is in the realm of the ATC. It also states in the instructions for flying in controlled airspace to ONLY use the authorization request. Hence my question, have you personally received authorization via a waiver to fly for extended periods of time, like a week, month, year...

 

[sar104]

I did not miss that. The instructions state that flying in the subject controlled airspace is in the realm of the ATC. It also states in the instructions for flying in controlled airspace to ONLY use the authorization request. Hence my question, have you personally received authorization via a waiver to fly for extended periods of time, like a week, month, year...

OK - I can't help you any further. If the actual online request form, with a clear option to request a waiver for airspace, as opposed to authorization, does not answer your question then I'm at a loss as to what will convince you.

I have not requested either airspace waivers or authorizations, since I have not yet had the need to fly in other than Class G, but there have been a number of posts here from Part 107 pilots who have obtained extended waivers. You will probably find them if you are interested enough to search.

 

[sar104]

.
You are wrong. If you are conducting a commercial flight with a valid Part 107 Certificate you do not have to contact an airport that is in Class G. If the flight is for other than a commercial operation, (recreational), you do need to contact the airport in Class G. It is the intent of the flight, not the fact that you happen to hold a Part 107 Cert.

That's not really correct either. If you hold Part 107 certification then you can fly purely under Part 107, if you so choose, even if the flight would otherwise qualify under the Special Rule (Part 101). The intent of the flight only matters if you are flying under Part 101. Part 107 covers all flight purposes.

 

[maxheadspace]

In regards to "So, are you saying you personally have successfully used a waiver to obtain permission to fly in controlled airspace for long durations like a week, month, year?"
No I personally have not because I've not requested such. I have professional colleagues who have and more are approved every single day. Spend some time and do some reading and you'll see Airspace Waivers are a REAL thing.

It was kind of a rhetorical question. Since Part 107 was instituted on 29 August 2016, no waiver has been granted by the FAA for Part 107.41. Waivers are public record. And I feel you are argumentative because someone doesn't agree with your thinking. Part 107.41 is included in the waiver-able items list, so in theory it could be waived. But it has never been waved. Last Fall I attended an education session with an FAA FSDO and he specifically stated they did not want sUAS pilots using the waiver process for controlled airspace authorization because waivers are very manpower intensive, while authorizations are relatively simple. The FAA was looking into a more automated authorization system that would turn around requests quickly based on geo coordinates, but obviously not there yet. I look forward to that day.

So, spend some time and do some reading. You'll see Airspace Waivers are theory.

 

[maxheadspace]

but there have been a number of posts here from Part 107 pilots who have obtained extended waivers.

I just answered this in more detail with BigAl07, but briefly, according to the FAA waiver database there have been no waivers granted for Part 107.41. I think there are a lot of people flying who still confuse waivers with authorizations. Clearly you understand the difference, but I've had people tell me they have a waiver to fly in controlled airspace, but when I drill down in to it I find they actually received an authorization. I'm not trying to argue the point, I was hoping you had information that would point to a source I could use in my own applications.

 

[sar104]

I just answered this in more detail with BigAl07, but briefly, according to the FAA waiver database there have been no waivers granted for Part 107.41. I think there are a lot of people flying who still confuse waivers with authorizations. Clearly you understand the difference, but I've had people tell me they have a waiver to fly in controlled airspace, but when I drill down in to it I find they actually received an authorization. I'm not trying to argue the point, I was hoping you had information that would point to a source I could use in my own applications.

OK - well so we are not disagreeing that 107.41 is explicitly stated as waivable. In terms of whether it has ever been waived, your reading of the "waivers granted" list seems to be correct. I would be surprised if everyone who has mentioned receiving airspace waivers has been mistaken, but I guess it is possible. Alternatively, I wonder if airspace waivers are not being recorded in the database with other waivers. Either way I do not have any definitive information on waiver results beyond that. Perhaps we could get some information from someone here who has used that approach.

 

[sar104]

I just answered this in more detail with BigAl07, but briefly, according to the FAA waiver database there have been no waivers granted for Part 107.41. I think there are a lot of people flying who still confuse waivers with authorizations. Clearly you understand the difference, but I've had people tell me they have a waiver to fly in controlled airspace, but when I drill down in to it I find they actually received an authorization. I'm not trying to argue the point, I was hoping you had information that would point to a source I could use in my own applications.

It also appears that there may be a problem with that database. I see no waivers at all since January, which seems unlikely to be correct.

 

[maxheadspace]

It also appears that there may be a problem with that database. I see no waivers at all since January, which seems unlikely to be correct.

Likely a lag. It syncs with the number of waivers I've heard in other venues, which I think is currently around 330. So maybe there's been a Part 107.41 waiver in the last two months! I'll keep watching.

 

[JMFinch]

Yes - but don't forget that the FAA has clarified how it requires Part 107 pilots to obtain authorization - that is via the online portal, not by calling local ATC or airports.

Unmanned Aircraft Systems (UAS) Frequently Asked Questions

Can I contact my local air traffic control tower or facility directly to request airspace permission?
No. All airspace permission requests must be made through the online portal.

Those of us with our 333s and a COA to operate in the airspace have an advantage over 107 pilots who must wait on approval through the portal or fly illegally. I only wish customers knew the difference. ;-)

 

[BigAl07]

The "Dept" that maintains that database is currently reassigned. Waivers (airspace and otherwise) are still being issued daily but the database is severely behind just like it was with our Section 333 Exemptions were.

I can tell you 100% there has been some type of waiver in the last 2 months because my 107.29 was in March.

I won't provide the name of the recipient but in my Public Safety group one of our group just got his 107.41 on March 22, 2017.

"Hey Everyone. My agency just received a Part 107.41 waiver to fly in class D and E-SRF airspace, within 2 miles of our local airport, for two years."

 

[BigAl07]

So, spend some time and do some reading. You'll see Airspace Waivers are theory.

This is directly from the FAA's UAShelp line:

"....Thank you for your inquiry. Airspace Waivers should be requested for reoccurring operations and will be conducted over an extended length of time (6 months-2 years). Airspace Authorizations should be requested for a single or limited number of operations conducted over a short period of time (less than 6 months). Please note, airspace waivers will most likely require more processing time than short-term airspace authorizations..."

 

[FLYBOYJ]

.
You are wrong. If you are conducting a commercial flight with a valid Part 107 Certificate you do not have to contact an airport that is in Class G. If the flight is for other than a commercial operation, (recreational), you do need to contact the airport in Class G. It is the intent of the flight, not the fact that you happen to hold a Part 107 Cert.

Define "Commercial flight" under Part 107. Do a word search for "commercial operation" in FAR 107, there's nothing there defining it. Under applicability 107 states:

§107.1 Applicability.

(a) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, this part applies to the registration, airman certification, and operation of civil small unmanned aircraft systems within the United States.

(b) This part does not apply to the following:

(1) Air carrier operations;

(2) Any aircraft subject to the provisions of part 101 of this chapter; or

(3) Any operation that a remote pilot in command elects to conduct pursuant to an exemption issued under section 333 of Public Law 112-95, unless otherwise specified in the exemption.

It's just a matter of you saying you're operating a "commercial" flight. I could be gathering landscape photos for a portfolio that I intend to sell and that could be considered "commercial".

Here's the "official" DOT/FAA definition of commercial operations;

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/rules/?id=8800.3100&format=pdf

"or any services performed incidental"

Right - but that's only an issue for recreational flying - yes? For Class G airports you don't need to call anyone under Part 107.

Exactly.