Dual Battery Mod

[Gimpster]

I know it can be disabled in the app for usage, but can one physically remove the VPS or will it just cause errors/drama? I thought about making/printing a battery bracket to replace mine since I really can't imagine flying indoors with this. I have mine disabled all the time since I got the P3A.

If I don't need the weight/bulk, why have it.

I fly single LiHV 4000s, 5200s and 6600s (Hobbyking), mounted under VPS with Dual Lock. I get about the same results as yours with dual (up to 35-36 minutes). I honestly think running these as duals is killing the bird. Running them with singles is already pushing to the limits. And you're getting almost no extra time... In warm weather, people have reported up to 40 minutes with single 5200. This is all to 10%.
Just my opinion.

 

[Ed209]

Sounds good to me. In fact I realized I haven't updated my battery inventories in a while so I ordered a couple of MS 5200 and the next step up 6xxx, a couple of those as candidates to split and try as extended flight single mode. My load bypass circuit now makes this possible. Before I thought of doing that, any time a larger primary battery were used in place of the standard battery, only 4,480 mah of it could be used. So there are new, single battery power to weight ratios to try.

One thing I have learned is that the P3 is really weight sensitive. Just taking 120 g's off the copter got me 22 minutes, a quiet bird that literally loafs in the air. It moves like a 911 (turbo - no lag or over steer) and is like a rock. Now I am adding batteries and heavy gauge wire harness and gaining incremental time in the sky, but I am losing stuff too. I guess I am going to view this copter as having two modes, a sport mode, and a extended flight mode....

I also need to build a true ultra-light P3 without the fancy feet (and cool Indian name) and really see what this P3 can do with one, standard battery. It might surprise us all. Btw, there is no turning back once you start making custom copters. Fair warning...

Man, we're on the same page. Was thinking of doing a leg-less P3 as well. it would have to be hand caught or fabricate a skid plate/bracket to protect the camera. Or a clear plastic/acrylic bubble to surround the whole gimbal assembly so landing it on grass would be doable. Man we need to setup a Google hangout/Skype conference and have a meeting of the minds. Would be freaking awesome to get this thing as light as possible and then work from the lightest possible platform. My interests are strictly flight time/distance with modded batteries. I'm doing 40min right now on a P3. If I could drop 100+ grams the results I think would be amazing.

 

[dirtybum]

I dont think (4) thin pegs just longer than the gimble would be much weight but very needed in an autoland sitch. But then again gimbles are getting cheaper every day[emoji41]

 

[Gimpster]

If it were me (I'm not much into distance.. yet), I would just dump the heavy AND un-aerodynamic gimbal+cam all together and run some lightweight 600-700 line cam and work on aero dynamic efficiencies you already pointed out.

At that point you're kinda in MVodhanel territory and might as well build a whole custom quad.

Man, we're on the same page. Was thinking of doing a leg-less P3 as well. it would have to be hand caught or fabricate a skid plate/bracket to protect the camera. Or a clear plastic/acrylic bubble to surround the whole gimbal assembly so landing it on grass would be doable. Man we need to setup a Google hangout/Skype conference and have a meeting of the minds. Would be freaking awesome to get this thing as light as possible and then work from the lightest possible platform. My interests are strictly flight time/distance with modded batteries. I'm doing 40min right now on a P3. If I could drop 100+ grams the results I think would be amazing.

 

[MVodhanel]

Man, we're on the same page. Was thinking of doing a leg-less P3 as well. it would have to be hand caught or fabricate a skid plate/bracket to protect the camera. Or a clear plastic/acrylic bubble to surround the whole gimbal assembly so landing it on grass would be doable. Man we need to setup a Google hangout/Skype conference and have a meeting of the minds. Would be freaking awesome to get this thing as light as possible and then work from the lightest possible platform. My interests are strictly flight time/distance with modded batteries. I'm doing 40min right now on a P3. If I could drop 100+ grams the results I think would be amazing.

40 minutes sounds amazing to me. I don't know about losing the legs - I think the antennas need to be vertical. Assuming this is true would need four features with that kind of separation anyway to maintain proper signal. Can certainly minimize them...

 

[MVodhanel]

I know it can be disabled in the app for usage, but can one physically remove the VPS or will it just cause errors/drama? I thought about making/printing a battery bracket to replace mine since I really can't imagine flying indoors with this. I have mine disabled all the time since I got the P3A.

If I don't need the weight/bulk, why have it.

Yeah, I had the same idea, originally, but all the radios are in that VPS unit. I didn't see any clean way to extract just the sonar part. OTOH, it does work really well, I would hate not to have it. What is optional are the LEDs, for sure. I flew tests for quite a while without them soldered in, and the system did not care. There may be a power benefit as well.

 

[MVodhanel]

LB safety issue (load bypass)

I have noticed that when using a circuit to assist the P3 battery manager carry the amperage load from the primary battery, the percentage based flight time system is defeated. Only the voltage based system appears to be in place. This means anything that relies on the percentage system, like return-to-home on critically low battery does not function anymore. Instead, as I have observed, the drone will auto land at around 3.33 volts. Of course, this is the desired result, but be aware of the related behavior. More importantly, be responsible. I do consider this advanced. It could be a double edge sword as far as safety goes. Make sure you really understand it if you decide to use it. I will continue to post more examples as I find them. I do consider this highly experimental.

SELF-RESPONSIBILITY

The information I am providing here is intended to help the community make informed decisions and are based on my personal observations, and are simply opinions of my own.

 

[Ed209]

40 minutes sounds amazing to me. I don't know about losing the legs - I think the antennas need to be vertical. Assuming this is true would need four features with that kind of separation anyway to maintain proper signal. Can certainly minimize them...

Yes I know the antennas need to be vertical still. I was thinking run the wires through clear flexible tubing. The kind for rc car antennas. They could flex when landing and would be minimal drag. Or just use a more rigid small diameter tube for legs and you can land on them.

 

[MVodhanel]

Yes I know the antennas need to be vertical still. I was thinking run the wires through clear flexible tubing. The kind for rc car antennas. They could flex when landing and would be minimal drag. Or just use a more rigid small diameter tube for legs and you can land on them.

I get the feeling you want speed, horizontal speed. If I am right, you are on the right track with a light P3. That is why I want to build another and stick more closely to the ultra-light theme. Lite Foot got heavier as I added features, but I was flying a true ultra-light at the beginning. I felt like I had something that should have been entered in some sort of a competition. The P3 control is second to none, too. It is extremely responsive. Take pictures of the event? Ha! I am the event…. Yeah, there’s the problem… I’m supposed to be taking pictures of my daughter on her pony... I would have ended up in trouble.

So I needed to dumb mine down. But that P3 can be real fast. The antennas are what(?) about an inch or so in length. I suppose if you didn’t care about exposing the camera you could try various different ways to minimize drag as you suggest. Lengthen the antenna cables and put each vertical tube on the end of each arm and see if the signal is bothered by the motor. That would be real flat.

Were you thinking of losing the gimbal? Did I miss that part? Video footage not important? I see some big design changes here if true and big weight savings. And super charged P3… Get out of the way!..

The weight thing is a very complicated thing, and if you start talking about a P3 that is lighter than stock, you can also consider reducing the battery capacity (and weight) as well. This may not even mean a reduction of flight time. Imagine that. Reducing the copter’s weight and not needing such a large battery (further reducing the weight), and because it is so light, the copter just makes a soft whoosh sound, and moves faster than anything in its class.

 

[Ed209]

I get the feeling you want speed, horizontal speed. If I am right, you are on the right track with a light P3. That is why I want to build another and stick more closely to the ultra-light theme. Lite Foot got heavier as I added features, but I was flying a true ultra-light at the beginning. I felt like I had something that should have been entered in some sort of a competition. The P3 control is second to none, too. It is extremely responsive. Take pictures of the event? Ha! I am the event…. Yeah, there’s the problem… I’m supposed to be taking pictures of my daughter on her pony... I would have ended up in trouble.

So I needed to dumb mine down. But that P3 can be real fast. The antennas are what(?) about an inch or so in length. I suppose if you didn’t care about exposing the camera you could try various different ways to minimize drag as you suggest. Lengthen the antenna cables and put each vertical tube on the end of each arm and see if the signal is bothered by the motor. That would be real flat.

Were you thinking of losing the gimbal? Did I miss that part? Video footage not important? I see some big design changes here if true and big weight savings. And super charged P3… Get out of the way!..

The weight thing is a very complicated thing, and if you start talking about a P3 that is lighter than stock, you can also consider reducing the battery capacity (and weight) as well. This may not even mean a reduction of flight time. Imagine that. Reducing the copter’s weight and not needing such a large battery (further reducing the weight), and because it is so light, the copter just makes a soft whoosh sound, and moves faster than anything in its class.

I want efficiency. If speed is a byproduct, I'll take it. My ultimate goal is more efficiency and +40min flight times. I can already do 40min with the P3 platform. You're right about being able to use a smaller battery and get more flight time. Just look at the flight time differences between a Standard and the Pro/Adv. Just a little lighter and a few more min flight time.

You wanna talk about smooth, light and swift...Check out this kids drone. Super efficient. Big props, low rpm... He has an awesome design.

 

[MVodhanel]

I want efficiency. If speed is a byproduct, I'll take it. My ultimate goal is more efficiency and +40min flight times. I can already do 40min with the P3 platform. You're right about being able to use a smaller battery and get more flight time. Just look at the flight time differences between a Standard and the Pro/Adv. Just a little lighter and a few more min flight time.

You wanna talk about smooth, light and swift...Check out this kids drone. Super efficient. Big props, low rpm... He has an awesome design.

I see. I understand the form factor you have in mind now. Really interesting drone, btw.

Yeah, the more I think about it a shaved down ultra-light P3.... If the camera could be separated from the motorized gimbal.... The design advantage (ability to compress the shape, etc...) and the gimbal motor load (& energy) being removed from the system plus the weight of the components which are substantial, this idea might have merit. I'm just thinking out loud here. But I believe we are talking about a P3 losing a few hundred grams of weight. This could trigger further reductions in battery.

I would consider losing the gimbal on such a P3 setup only because of the innate P3 stability and the fact the the P3 seems to get more stable as it gets lighter. It obviously wouldn't be a serious camera platform.

 

[sacooke]

I received my horizon 5200 battery mod and did my first flight. I did not go for distance (admittedly scared) but focused on battery life. I flew within a 3000 ft radius. The result is 27 minutes to 10%.

I noticed a considerable difference in the handling. It was a lot more aggressive in stick response as if compensating for the extra weight. Easily adjusted to it. I am happy overall and the new battery tray is easy and streamlined. Awesome investment! DirtyBum thank you for the initial link!

 

[hebs]

I fly single LiHV 4000s, 5200s and 6600s (Hobbyking), mounted under VPS with Dual Lock. I get about the same results as yours with dual (up to 35-36 minutes). I honestly think running these as duals is killing the bird. Running them with singles is already pushing to the limits. And you're getting almost no extra time... In warm weather, people have reported up to 40 minutes with single 5200. This is all to 10%.
Just my opinion.

It's a fair opinion and I know that I'm pushing the bird hard (pushing the limits). However, my conditions are different to some others and shouldn't really be compared as like for like tests. Most of my tests were at 10-11 deg C at 161m mean height above sea level (ground level).

When I test a single 5200, I get 32:12. With 2x 5200s I get 37:47. That is a clear difference of 5 minutes. I'll probably stop pushing when I break the 40min barrier (or the bird - but then I have the fun of fixing it!).

Warmer and lower will get better results. I'm searching for the optimum combination for maximum flight time (acknowledging the extra stress on the bird), and that can only be found once we know what the limits are. I know what the dead weight limit is but I still get an increase in flight time with bigger batteries and have not yet seen a significantly diminished return (the graph line is still smooth). I'd love to see the results of someone with duel 5200s in a warmer test! I reckon that 43-45 minutes is possible. Opinions are genuinely appreciated but until someone pushes the limits, they are only opinions. That is not meant as a slight so please don't take it that way. I will share my results for the benefit of me and others.

Duel 6600s next!


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[FredzMaxxUAV]

I received my horizon 5200 battery mod and did my first flight. I did not go for distance (admittedly scared) but focused on battery life. I flew within a 3000 ft radius. The result is 27 minutes to 10%.

I noticed a considerable difference in the handling. It was a lot more aggressive in stick response as if compensating for the extra weight. Easily adjusted to it. I am happy overall and the new battery tray is easy and streamlined. Awesome investment! DirtyBum thank you for the initial link!

27 mins with a 5200 is not great...
Try the 5200 un-split under the VPS. It gives 2-5 mins more, for some unknown reason.
That said with a split 5200 I get about 29-30 to 10%.

 

[Ed209]

HealthyDrones.com - Innovative flight data analysis that matters
39:45 to 1% with single 5200 under the VPS on a 52degree cold wind night.

I've messed around with enough splits to know that there is something different.

 

[dirtybum]

I received my horizon 5200 battery mod and did my first flight. I did not go for distance (admittedly scared) but focused on battery life. I flew within a 3000 ft radius. The result is 27 minutes to 10%.

I noticed a considerable difference in the handling. It was a lot more aggressive in stick response as if compensating for the extra weight. Easily adjusted to it. I am happy overall and the new battery tray is easy and streamlined. Awesome investment! DirtyBum thank you for the initial link!

27 mins with a 5200 is not great...
Try the 5200 un-split under the VPS. It gives 2-5 mins more, for some unknown reason.
That said with a split 5200 I get about 29-30 to 10%.

HealthyDrones.com - Innovative flight data analysis that matters
39:45 to 1% with single 5200 under the VPS on a 52degree cold wind night.

I've messed around with enough splits to know that there is something different.

While it's known now that one block battery performs better for most of us than the splits, you got to keep in mind that the benefits for some of these flyers to buy that particular mod is the plug-and-play system of it! Being able to charge everything up at once is real attractive to somebody just getting into the battery mod arena. We take it for granted because we've tried so many different things and are very experienced with lots of battery mods. But the average buyer just wants to plug something in and give it a shot, without making a huge investment on extra chargers etc.

Sacooke, I think that's a decent start and from my experience a few charge cycle should ring a little more out of those, at least it did with mine. Where I'm averaging on the P3P/a 32 minutes. Yes there's better batteries out there but that's a good starter one. I encourage you to also share those results over here for others to see. Thanks for sharing
Plug n play battery mod

 

[sacooke]

Ha! That's exactly where I thought I was. Hmm. Copied and pasted post. Also thank you for putting into words perfectly my plug and play mindset. Dispite the fact that I now also own the skyrc d100 for the fpvcustoms battery mod, I think baby steps are better for me and I would rather sit back, read, and learn from the more experienced. I am enjoying it so far!

 

[hebs]

I know that you all told me that I was pushing the bird...... well.... I found the limit!

It can't cope with twin 6600s and DJI battery. The motors reached their limit at about 7 minutes and I had to quickly land - fortunately I was only hover testing at 5m so I landed it ok into some long grass - a bit messy but ok.

The motors were very hot (not enough to melt the plastic, but not far off I think).

The symptoms of a struggling bird were a warning "maximum motor speed", and a slow spinning gentle descent. Slow enough for me to just about be able to control it.

I let the motors cool and tested again with just the standard battery and it all seems ok. I may just replace the motors to be sure, but now we know the limits.

I noticed that MVodhanel used lubricant in his motors - can anyone recommend such a lubricant?


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[dirtybum]

Thats Dope hebs! Thanks for the research!

 

[MVodhanel]

I know that you all told me that I was pushing the bird...... well.... I found the limit!

It can't cope with twin 6600s and DJI battery. The motors reached their limit at about 7 minutes and I had to quickly land - fortunately I was only hover testing at 5m so I landed it ok into some long grass - a bit messy but ok.

The motors were very hot (not enough to melt the plastic, but not far off I think).

The symptoms of a struggling bird were a warning "maximum motor speed", and a slow spinning gentle descent. Slow enough for me to just about be able to control it.

I let the motors cool and tested again with just the standard battery and it all seems ok. I may just replace the motors to be sure, but now we know the limits.

I noticed that MVodhanel used lubricant in his motors - can anyone recommend such a lubricant?


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Liberty makes a good one - available on Amazon.

I'm experimenting with those batteries myself. Absolutely lubricate those motors with the big loads. I'm between a rock and a hard place on the other important thing. The battery manager isn't designed to handle all those amps. hence my load bypass circuit. But the last thing I want to appear to be doing is make such a suggestion (hint hint). That would be very stupid of me and might make me appear liable. So absolutely do not do anything I say (hint hint).

There is a special place in China where the names of pioneers are etched in mush in a spot where the top DJI corporate execs like to urinate. Just think, you could aspire to be....