Drone Police - they're getting deployed
- Thread starter Mike Slater
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I originally thought that all you needed was to mark your reg ID on the model and have ID as well, but a quick look at the FAA FAQs on registration and you find Q41 which indicates you need to carry a copy of the reg card from the FAA as well (either printed out or in electronic form):
"Q41. How do I prove I am registered?
"A. A certificate of registration will be available to download and will be sent to your email address at the time of registration. When operating your UAS you must be able to present the certificate in either print or electronic format if asked for proof of registration." - UAS Registration Q&A
If you haven't read thru these FAQs you may want to take a moment to review them. Of particular interest is Q43:
"Q43. If I let someone borrow my drone do I have to give them the Certificate of Registration?
"A. Yes, anyone who operates your drone must have the Certificate of Aircraft Registration in their possession. You can give them a paper copy, email it to them, or they can show it electronically from the registration website."
So when you are letting that cop fly your drone, hand him the cert first before you hand him the radio! Just one of those technicalities that can cause headaches for both you and your buddy if you weren't aware of it and someone decided to make an issue of it...
You can pick up laminates at any office store like Staples, or even your local Walmart. They're not hard to find. I tend to buy them off Amazon or eBay because it's cheaper. I assume you were asking about laminates, rather than checklists?
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I hope both you guys are aware that one of the tests for insanity is whether the person can distinguish orders of magnitude and assign appropriate importance to information they may come across.
An example of this would the the ability to distinguish the difference between a personal opinion and an authoritative statement (such as legal advice from a lawyer), and to assign relative importance to the information contained within.
I've yet to see ANYTHING other than personal opinions in this thread! And I've found many of them quite useful.
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N017RW
Premium Pilot
Insanity tests... here!!!
LOL!!!
Great now we got posters playing Psychiatrists too.
LOL!!!
Great now we got posters playing Psychiatrists too.
You discount that there could in fact be some professionals here who know what they're talking about...who also happen to like the hobby
If that's all you have to contribute....what's the point?
If that's all you have to contribute....what's the point?
dirkclod
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I realize you are posting the information, but I have a question....
Even though all the news media reports "drones are being required to be registered" in truth it is those flying them being registered, isn't it?
I have my name and address plus my FAA number. Doesn't that mean "I am registered to fly?" Technically?
I would not think these registrations would be transferable. Particularly if I loan my quad copter and registration info to another to fly, and they do something stupid that causes harm, it will come back to the registered owner, not the actual operator....?
Is it smart to provide your information to another so they can fly your machine?
Depends on the state and nature of the stop. If stopped at a safety checkpoint, insurance and DL must be shown in IL. Your DL is a contract in most states giving you the privilege (not an inherit right) to drive. That's the way the laws are written. If you get stopped without cause, yeah - you can refuse. However not a wise choice as cause is any moving or non-moving violation. "I thought you were not wearing a seatbelt" is cause to stop you (as shown by case law as a reasonable and legal stop).
This process (of registration) is very silly and likely will not hold up after the first court challenge. Yes, the person is being registered, not the equipment. Yes, this is transferable - their QA had a question about letting someone else fly, and the answer was 'if they have your certificate". The FAA required 13 YO's to register, despite not having the means to do so (requires a credit card). Also, there is no state that allows a 13YO to enter a contract so any enforcement options are off the table. Congress specifically passed a law that states the FAA can not regulate model aircraft for hobby purposes, yet that is what they did (sort of, the regulated the person, not the UAS). Regardless, I registered and have a PDF of the cert on my phone I fly with. I would bet the first ones fined against this rule of registration are going to be huge knuckleheads doing very stupid stuff that is also against state or local laws. I doubt they are going to bother backyard or park flyers. The FAA requirement is civil, so local LEOs are really overstepping if they attempt at interpretations of enforcement and try to do such things.
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I can see having the number on the aircraft so it is involved in something and found at the scene, they can trace it back to the owner. They can't really prove that the owner was the one flying it, but if it has my registration number on it, I'll be the one having a hard time explaining why I don't know how it ended up where it was.
As for the certificate, I'm not 100% sure what that buys. The LEO can see the label on the craft, and I guess they can cross reference the certificate with the number and make sure it matches. But if someone else is flying it, what does that certificate do? Only thing I can think of is it has the safety guidelines on there. That way if someone causes trouble you can claim you gave them the safety guidelines.
I have let a friend fly it for a few minutes and my daughter. But there is no way I'm going to hand it off to someone and just assume they will behave. Safety concerns aside, I'm not prepared to loan someone a $700 (well, now $500) device and hope they know what they are doing!
As for the certificate, I'm not 100% sure what that buys. The LEO can see the label on the craft, and I guess they can cross reference the certificate with the number and make sure it matches. But if someone else is flying it, what does that certificate do? Only thing I can think of is it has the safety guidelines on there. That way if someone causes trouble you can claim you gave them the safety guidelines.
I have let a friend fly it for a few minutes and my daughter. But there is no way I'm going to hand it off to someone and just assume they will behave. Safety concerns aside, I'm not prepared to loan someone a $700 (well, now $500) device and hope they know what they are doing!
OK, for those who need a reality check, here is a pop quiz: Which is the posting quoted above, A. a personal opinion, or B. an authoritative statement? ... ... ... ... Bzzzz, wrong! The answer is actually A. a personal opinion! Thanks for playing, better luck next time.
Actually, the FAA is on firmer legal ground than you might think, IMHO.
The 2012 law with the model aircraft rules include as a condition that the person is a member of a national organization, so anyone not a member of the AMA or similar model aircraft organization actually falls outside that carve-out, similar to commercial operators. And the FAA certainly has the authority to regulate them.
As I mentioned previously, this is here to stay and will likely just mature over time, such as AMA members using their AMA numbers for registration and not having to renew as long as they are an AMA member (again, IMHO).
Registration is not a contract it is more akin to an over the counter retail sale, and 13 year olds can buy Visa and Mastercard debit cards from the local grocers with which to complete the registration process, so age really isn't a barrier (now that the FAA is allowing debit cards).
And I agree that letting someone else fly our UAV with your registration number on it is asking for trouble. I wouldn't do it unless I'm present during the flight. Otherwise if they want to borrow it, then they attach their own reg number to it until it's returned.
But it's real interesting to note that the FAA is more concerned with the number than the actual pilot operating the model! One could extrapolate that they do ACTUALLY view this as a UAV registration system, rather than the pilot registration system it's been implemented as.
And here's ANOTHER pop quiz: Which is my reply to the posting quoted above, A. a personal opinion, or B. an authoritative statement? ... ... ... ... Bzzzz, wrong AGAIN! The answer is actually A. a personal opinion! Thanks for playing, better luck next time, but you'll need to up your game if you ever want to win!
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" There are certain exceptions to this as you agree to certain things in order to obtain the ability to operate a motor vehicle."
Stopping people and not being correct about the reason for the stop would be a problem. If it can be shown (pattern) that the officer kept pulling people over by mistake, one could argue that they are in violation of someone's right to free movement.
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Which is interestingly weird since the FAA did not register your drone, only you. To use a car analogy, it would be like the state requiring you to give a copy of your driver's license to anyone who borrows your car. Not the vehicle registration (which would make sense) but your driver's license.
I'd really hate to be an FAA lawyer these days ....
It's almost as if when you sign up on the FAA registration site, they aren't actually registering YOU, but granting you the authorization to register UAVs yourself with a unique number.
And the certificate of registration becomes the paper trail for this registration, which would make sense to need it available when that model files regardless of who the pilot is.
Actually the car analogy works now, with the registration number being the license plate and the cert being the registration papers that you would normally keep in the glove box. You can let anyone you want drive the car, even if they DON'T have a driver's license (though the wisdom of that is debatable, you could), but the car's registration needs to be available to that driver if ever needed (and remember, your name is on it like the FAA cert).
The car's registration is separate than the driver's, always has been. That's pretty much what seems to be happening here, you have but one license plate for all your vehicles and the paperwork has to accompany it when in operation.
BTW- it's kind of weird to realize I trust someone more to drive my car, than to fly my Phantom!
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N017RW
Premium Pilot
Works well.
HAMs have been registered/regulated this way for decades.
HAMs have been registered/regulated this way for decades.
I believe the text actually says you have to follow the rules promulgated by the AMA or a similar organization, not that you have to be a member of AMA or another organization. Note that AMA's rules are posted publicly and can be followed just as well by a nonmember.
In the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution we find that everyone is entitled to "equal protection of the laws" which I think would prevent the federal government including the FAA from discriminating against those who did not pay to join a private organization. But I'm not a lawyer, and even if I were a lawyer, I would just be someone with legal training advocating for a position. Nothing authoritative is said until a case comes before a judge, and the judge makes a ruling.
The actual law from Sec 336(a) says:
"(2) the aircraft is operated in accordance with a community-based set of safety guidelines and within the programming of a nationwide community-based organization;"
The key being the term "and within the programming of a nationwide community-based organization;" which could only be done if one is a member of such an organization. While it doesn't say outright that that you MUST join an organization, it would be difficult to be "within the programming" AND to be able to prove it without a membership.
If needing to join a private organization were considered discrimination then we wouldn't have any lawyers! Lawyers have to be a member of the Bar to operate most everywhere in the US, and can't even claim to be a lawyer without membership.
I'd do another pop quiz, but I think we are past that point by now and that everyone knows that both the post I quoted and my reply are simply personal opinions...
I agree the owner is being registered rather than the aircraft. We are not "pilots" (except for those who are) so what do we call ourselves? But I can allow my unregistered son to fly my quad. This is different from a car in traffic, where my son who does not have a license cannot drive on public roads, period, even if I own the car and am in it with him. So it's not exactly like any other licensing situation I can think of.
And if you don't have your registration handy when a cop pulls over your car, the cop can just call his dispatcher and check that information and more. Hopefully they could do the same in case we're operating without a copy of our certificate.
I think your facts are off in at least one instance.
I don't think a lawyer has to be a member of the bar association any more than a doctor has to be a member of the American Medical Association. However they do need to pass licensing exams (which cost money) and fulfill requirements such as continuing education.
If the flying must be within the programming of the AMA, I have a hard time believing that flying by yourself in your backyard would qualify, even if you're a member of AMA. You would have to be at an AMA event. In fact if AMA let non-members participate in its events (I don't know if they do) then a non-member participating in such an event, and following the rules, would be "within the programming". It would be constitutional to restrict flying for everyone just to events like AMA meets, because it treats everyone equally before the law. Fortunately for all of us, it seems they are not requiring that in practice.
If the law is that you have to join the organization to fly, they'd just say it. The reason they have to dance around it, with this complicated language everyone is spending time parsing, is because it would be unconstitutional to require membership. And indeed it leaves what some would consider "loopholes" and others would see as their constitutional rights.
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