Bitrate calculations and implications for best quality

[marcinsow]

I would always do the down-convert as the very last step which means, edit in the highest and best quality, then export/down-convert. To enhance the ability to edit, I first do all the grading on the original footage in Davinci Resolve (14 - latest version) and export the graded "raw" footage to "MFX OP1A formatted "DNxHR 444 10 bit" or "DNxHR HQX 10 bit", both formats that edit well and are high quality. I use that material for actual editing in Premiere PRO and then final export using the Adobe Media Converter driven by PPro. I usually produce a high quality H265 (100mb - 10bit color and a Key Frame distance of 8) for my own consumption viewed on an LG 4K OLED TV. Using the interim format conversion and a reduced Key Frame distance to 8 almost completely eliminates the annoying "B-frame pulsing" produced by the lazy DJI compression engine. Note that in addition, I actually record using (Landscape) +1 sharpness and 0-0 for the rest in DCinelike at 24fps. The completed results are stunningly improved because the increased detail acts like a "kick-in-the-but" to the "lazy" DJI encoder and recording at 24fps allows it to squeeze all/most of that extra information into the compressed format. If it is too sharp in post production, reducing the sharpness a little in PPro works much better then trying to recover sharpness on washed out smudgy recordings.

Attached is a frame-grab from P3P video (UHD/24fps - Landscape mode DCinelike processed as described above).

Wow, that's impressive! I think I did not achieve it in P4P... so must definitely change my approach. Especially surprised that you say +1,0,0 is better than -2,-2,-2 and processing after in software. If I could ask a few more details - looks like you have all the answers I need and was searching for!

1. In P4P D-Log only records in ISO 500 - I understand you recommend ISO 100 D-Cinelike anyway.
2. I understand you suggest doing 4K project with 4K footage, and at the last step export as 1080p (if that's what we need). Doing 1080p project with 4K footage will mean some loss?
3. After you export from DaVinci to Premiere, do you still apply some further color grading in Premiere or that's the part you don't touch anymore there?
4. I use FCPX but I hope it's good enough to make above mentioned steps. Only worried about key frame distance - looks like never heard of that setting

Thanks for all the input! I think it makes it a really great thread about footage quality!

Best from Poland,
Marcin

 

[LSDMT]

this is a SUPER cool and useful thread. thanks to all involved.

[emoji109] [emoji120] [emoji109]

 

[Tomas Wangen]

Thanks for the correction. I'm glad to know that. Now hopefully they'll introduce H.265 support for free so I don't have to transcode outside of Resolve. I'd still generate optimized media anyway, but I'd rather do it all in Resolve.

With the introduction in Davinci Resolve 14 (currently in beta 6), they dropped the price by 70% to a very reasonable $299 now, so I decided to jump to that.

It allows for a much easier workflow by removing the necessity for manual conversion before import. h264 can be edited as-is and h265 can - in theory - but really calls for full-resolution proxies for efficient editing. I use DNxHR LB for these with good-enough quality and very reasonable size. Final rendering using the original h265 files certainly does not hurt quality-wise. Another plus compared to the free one, was inclusion of temporal and spatial noise-reduction which really saves those low-light shots as demonstrated in example below.

I have also switched to dCinelike due to highlight banding issues in dLog (sometimes, but not always, a issue).

I render directly to h264 for delivery to youtube or similar services, and the same with a higher bitrate for playback on my 4k tv.

A previously posted sample of this Davinci-only workflow can be seen here (h265/30fps/4k/dCinelike/ -1,0,0):

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

(note: this rendering is 4k, but would have even better per-pixel quality at 1080p as it even in 4k has close to no noise and excellent detail)

 

[Roamer105]

Wow, that's impressive! I think I did not achieve it in P4P... so must definitely change my approach. Especially surprised that you say +1,0,0 is better than -2,-2,-2 and processing after in software. If I could ask a few more details - looks like you have all the answers I need and was searching for!

1. In P4P D-Log only records in ISO 500 - I understand you recommend ISO 100 D-Cinelike anyway.
2. I understand you suggest doing 4K project with 4K footage, and at the last step export as 1080p (if that's what we need). Doing 1080p project with 4K footage will mean some loss?
3. After you export from DaVinci to Premiere, do you still apply some further color grading in Premiere or that's the part you don't touch anymore there?
4. I use FCPX but I hope it's good enough to make above mentioned steps. Only worried about key frame distance - looks like never heard of that setting

Thanks for all the input! I think it makes it a really great thread about footage quality!

Best from Poland,
Marcin

To
1: Yes, I would stick with DCinelike and ISO 100
2: I think you get better results if you process everything at highest resolution and quality and as the final step produce your down converted resolution.
3: Not really with the exception of softening the image slightly if necessary and adding the lens correction which is not available in Davinci.
4: Regarding key frame distance - the DJI encoder uses a long-gap encoding technique which will generate a large number of B-frames (recording only incremental changes, not the full frame) before starting with a new I-Frame (full frame). The reason for this is mainly to allow encoding higher frame-rates (lots more data) to be fitted into the 60Mb/sec or 100Mb/sec respectively. The resulting "pulsation" can be really problematic.

In general you need to keep in mind that in post production you can not recover information that has never been recorded (that only works in movies ). but you always can discard information. So, in my mind it is better to record more information and potentially discard it later than try to do the opposite. That is why I do not choose to reduce sharpness, contrast or saturation while recording in fact, I chose "landscape" mode which is +1 on sharpness.

 

[Roamer105]

It is really hard to believe that one can not purchase Resolve online with download - the only way seems to require some physical mailing. $299 definitively makes it very attractive. I may just have to wait for the mailman - to deliver "bits" and a "license".

 

[Dronefriend]

Interesting take on the sharpness there Roamer. Maybe this is partly the reason I find my low light shots so smudgy (but shots with good lightning excellent). I use -2 sharpness.

To Thomas: Great video you posted there with the bridges. Absolutely beautiful. To my knowledge the banding highlights in D log is only evident when shooting h265, is it not? And the pulsing as well.

I recently switched to the mode Truecolor from Cinelike. I found it that I often underexpose when shooting Cinelike since it tends to lift shadows up. Which can result in incorrect exposure and noisy shadows (when shooting low light). What seems to be correct is actually underexposed but lifted, and is seen in post.
And Cinelike raises highlights as well, so using correct exposure would result in even more blown highlights.

Truecolor only adds a touch of lift to the blacks but leaves highlights untouched. I found it interesting to try.

Will definitely try and shoot 0/0/0 to see if it helps with the mushiness.

 

[Tomas Wangen]

It is really hard to believe that one can not purchase Resolve online with download - the only way seems to require some physical mailing. $299 definitively makes it very attractive. I may just have to wait for the mailman - to deliver "bits" and a "license".

With the final release of Resolve 14 they are supposed to move to a normal serial-based license model which should allow for download only.

The advantage with the dongle-model they currently have, is the easy move between computers (for instance you can bring it with your laptop on travel) and combined with the perpetual license that is also a advantage moving forward to future versions.

So waiting a few days for the mailman will be worth it

 

[Tomas Wangen]

Great video you posted there with the bridges. Absolutely beautiful. To my knowledge the banding highlights in D log is only evident when shooting h265, is it not? And the pulsing as well.

I recently switched to the mode Truecolor from Cinelike. I found it that I often underexpose when shooting Cinelike since it tends to lift shadows up. Which can result in incorrect exposure and noisy shadows (when shooting low light). What seems to be correct is actually underexposed but lifted, and is seen in post.
And Cinelike raises highlights as well, so using correct exposure would result in even more blown highlights.

Truecolor only adds a touch of lift to the blacks but leaves highlights untouched. I found it interesting to try.

Thanks!

The banding is due to the reduced shades available in highlights (as they are relocated to shadows) causing banding in for instance a clear sky regardless of codec. I had to throw away some footage due to this, and therefore went back to dCinelike to be on the safe side. I will certainly give this Truecolor profile a go as well.

The pulsing issue has not, for me, been a problem so far other than in technical tests (easy to reproduce with enough high frequency detail and motion). If you do not go overboard with the toning (such as extreme contrast) it should not be a big issue with either h264 or h265.

 

[Dronefriend]

Thanks!

The banding is due to the reduced shades available in highlights (as they are relocated to shadows) causing banding in for instance a clear sky regardless of codec. I had to throw away some footage due to this, and therefore went back to dCinelike to be on the safe side. I will certainly give this Truecolor profile a go as well.

The pulsing issue has not, for me, been a problem so far other than in technical tests (easy to reproduce with enough high frequency detail and motion). If you do not go overboard with the toning (such as extreme contrast) it should not be a big issue with either h264 or h265.

I had the impression that d-log also pushed down highlights. Trying to push everything in the midtones using the 500 ISO mark which, according to DJI reps, is the native ISO of the camera. Very sceptical about that, but I actually shot some footage today using DLog for the first time in a loong time. Will have a look.

But I do know for a fact that banding was much worse in h265 rather than 264. I did a test and thread about this about 6 months ago.

I shot some video for a client today using 0 sharpness. Unfortunately it did no good. Almost ruined the footage not your fault, I should have tried it on my own, of course! I will try -1 for low light shots, the material today was in good lightning conditions. I see some potential about what you were referring to.

 

[Raptorman0909]

To
1: Yes, I would stick with DCinelike and ISO 100
2: I think you get better results if you process everything at highest resolution and quality and as the final step produce your down converted resolution.
3: Not really with the exception of softening the image slightly if necessary and adding the lens correction which is not available in Davinci.
4: Regarding key frame distance - the DJI encoder uses a long-gap encoding technique which will generate a large number of B-frames (recording only incremental changes, not the full frame) before starting with a new I-Frame (full frame). The reason for this is mainly to allow encoding higher frame-rates (lots more data) to be fitted into the 60Mb/sec or 100Mb/sec respectively. The resulting "pulsation" can be really problematic.

In general you need to keep in mind that in post production you can not recover information that has never been recorded (that only works in movies ). but you always can discard information. So, in my mind it is better to record more information and potentially discard it later than try to do the opposite. That is why I do not choose to reduce sharpness, contrast or saturation while recording in fact, I chose "landscape" mode which is +1 on sharpness.

Yes, I've tried D-log numerous times but keep coming back to D-cinelike. I also shoot at ISO100 most of the time and f/5 or f/5.6 most of the time. My custom setting is -1/0/-1 and in post using PP I tend to use a value of 30 for sharpening with 10-20 for saturation -- I try to avoid the overly saturated look that others seem fond of.

As to the bit rate issue ... I was quite impressed with the improvement the P4P displayed versus my Inspire 1 Pro with X5 camera and I suspect that much of the improvement is down to the bit rate increase from 60Mbps to 100Mbps. There is much less blocking up of leaves on trees etc.

And I'll further agree that shooting in 4K (UHD) as my default setting gives me more options in post though I almost always render it 4K as well. But being able to downrez to 1080P is still there.

I would love to see the next Inspire series drone with higher bit depth and another bump in bit rate --12 bit at 200Mbps with the ability to change lenses would be a game changer, but the processing power required may make this only possible in a couple years. The processing power issue is more of a battery limitation so it may take another die shrink to see that happen. The 200Mbps thing may require an XQD card and as far as I know there are no uSD sized XQD cards yet.


Brian

 

[Raptorman0909]

I forgot to mention that I usually shoot using H.265 and I do NOT use PRORES or any other proxy files to edit or render in PP. I do have a fairly high end PC so that helps and viewing my raw files is painful -- it take about 2.4 seconds to play 1 second of video, but within PP it's usually not a problem. The only place I have some delays is whenever a transition or effect occurs and then the video stutters and slows down, but I know that's going to happen and I generally do that kind of editing at the end. Basically I cut the video for length and scene duration/sequence, then do color work, and only at the end do I add transitions or other effects. In this way I do not work with second generation files that will absolutely be of lower quality than first gen files -- there is no free lunch.

Newer high end PC's with the latest gen CPU's or GPU's should be able to handle H.265 natively so it should be less of a problem going forward. Of course, then we'll be at 8K and we'll be back to proxies and stuttering. It never ends...


Brian

 

[Dronefriend]

I forgot to mention that I usually shoot using H.265 and I do NOT use PRORES or any other proxy files to edit or render in PP. I do have a fairly high end PC so that helps and viewing my raw files is painful -- it take about 2.4 seconds to play 1 second of video, but within PP it's usually not a problem. The only place I have some delays is whenever a transition or effect occurs and then the video stutters and slows down, but I know that's going to happen and I generally do that kind of editing at the end. Basically I cut the video for length and scene duration/sequence, then do color work, and only at the end do I add transitions or other effects. In this way I do not work with second generation files that will absolutely be of lower quality than first gen files -- there is no free lunch.

Newer high end PC's with the latest gen CPU's or GPU's should be able to handle H.265 natively so it should be less of a problem going forward. Of course, then we'll be at 8K and we'll be back to proxies and stuttering. It never ends...


Brian

How come you shoot H265? I remember you experienced banding and pulsing in H265.

 

[Raptorman0909]

How come you shoot H265? I remember you experienced banding and pulsing in H265.

An 8-bit camera is going to have banding no matter what you do -- there isn't enough bit depth to prevent it. But, different conditions and different settings can make a huge difference in how noticeable the banding is. If the sky has a lot of detailed clouds the banding will hardly be noticeable at all whereas a blue sky will be impossible to avoid it. In my early tests the problem was a combination of a sky with little detail and using D-log. The problem I have with D-log, or one of the problems anyway, is that the algorithm dedicates more of the levels (bits) to code for mid-tones so there are fewer left to code for shadows and highlights making banding worse. The combination of: boring blue skies, D-log and an 8-bit camera guarantee banding and noticeable banding. The reduction in levels (bits) to code for shadows is less of a problem as there is usually far more detail in the shadows that break up the banding.


Brian

 

[Dronefriend]

This shot by me a couple of weeks ago in H264, Truecolor, -2 0 0 at 5 am.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

 

[LSDMT]

This shot by me a couple of weeks ago in H264, Truecolor, -2 0 0 at 5 am.

absolutely gorgeous

 

[Tomas Wangen]

This shot by me a couple of weeks ago in H264, Truecolor, -2 0 0 at 5 am.

To view this content we will need your consent to set third party cookies.
For more detailed information, see our cookies page.

Accept third party cookies

Very nice and especially the ending sunrise scenes with great color. certainly a good thing that it is finally legal to fly in Sweden again.

One thing I would change is that when capturing in such light, I usually underexpose with 0.7-1 stop to be able to resolve most of the detail in the sky, but other than that great stuff.

 

[Roamer105]

With the final release of Resolve 14 they are supposed to move to a normal serial-based license model which should allow for download only.

The advantage with the dongle-model they currently have, is the easy move between computers (for instance you can bring it with your laptop on travel) and combined with the perpetual license that is also a advantage moving forward to future versions.

So waiting a few days for the mailman will be worth it

Yes! I did bite the bullet and waited a few days. Downloaded Resolve 14 Studio Beta - works great! Now that I can use the full power of Resolve I have been reprocessing some of my older videos. Boy what a difference especially when using temporal NR together with a specially tuned "soften and sharpen" filter (instead of spacial NR). Fabulous results. It does take a bit of processing and it is really important to allow using the video processor to assist but it is able to get rid of nearly 100% of the original mpeg artifacts including most of the pulsing intra-frame degradation effect that is very apparent in underexposed recordings.

I also familiarized myself with the Resolve editing capabilities. At this point, Resolve will cover all of my post production needs and I will drop Adobe Premiere PRO and Media Encoder after the lease expires. I am very happy with Resolve 14 Studio Beta.

 

[skyeboysteve]

Yes! I did bite the bullet and waited a few days. Downloaded Resolve 14 Studio Beta - works great! Now that I can use the full power of Resolve I have been reprocessing some of my older videos. Boy what a difference especially when using temporal NR together with a specially tuned "soften and sharpen" filter (instead of spacial NR). Fabulous results. It does take a bit of processing and it is really important to allow using the video processor to assist but it is able to get rid of nearly 100% of the original mpeg artifacts including most of the pulsing intra-frame degradation effect that is very apparent in underexposed recordings.

I also familiarized myself with the Resolve editing capabilities. At this point, Resolve will cover all of my post production needs and I will drop Adobe Premiere PRO and Media Encoder after the lease expires. I am very happy with Resolve 14 Studio Beta.

Do you recommend any tutorials out there for learning how to color correct and edit with Resolve?

 

[Roamer105]

Do you recommend any tutorials out there for learning how to color correct and edit with Resolve?

Aside from self-teaching using the extensive documentation (online) I very much enjoy and appreciate the YouTube "how-to" videos from Casey Faris and others. You can use those along with setting up and working through some examples based on them. As anything complex and different that what one is used to - it does take some time and effort. But well worth it!

 

[Tomas Wangen]

Resolve 14 is now out of beta and final versions available for download.