Airspace awareness

[Deathcode]

The way it was asked is just fishy to me and I know fish

I'm sorry if the way I asked sounded fishy to you. I can assure you the purpose of the question is simply related to the perceived ignorance I've seen from drone pilots when it comes to airspace and FAA regulations in general and NOT from the FAA commercial use of drones, but from the fact that there are airplanes up there that can collision with these UAVs.
also, please look at my other posts and you'll see that I'm about to receive my first drone so my questions are solely for my own use.
It seems like the topic is delicate around here though.

 

[Deathcode]

Also, another question I have is, would people here be in favor of regulations when it comes to drone pilots? similar to training to achieve a sports pilot license (maybe not as in depth..)

You can have as much regulation as you like but it won't stop idiots doing what they do.
You can't legislate common sense.

While I agree with your statement, you wouldn't go fly an airplane yourself if you weren't properly trained wouldn't you? first off, you might kill yourself or others, and second, you will probably get arrested.
I don't see many people doing that, so why wouldn't it work with drones? because of the perceived sense of security being on the ground?
Don't misunderstand me, I do agree with you. I'm just asking why wouldn't it work just like it works with general aviation, that's all.

 

[Deathcode]

What I would like to see is the model set by Transport Canada (this is paraphrased for simplicity) where you take a one-day course in safety, weather, airspace and common sense. Then when you pass a test you get a certificate that TC accepts as validation of your ability to fly safely.

Hey Steve, I have a question about this statement.

First, I highly respect your opinions expressed throughout the threads here, because of the fact that you not only have a pilots license and many years experience both in flying a real plane and that includes a keen awareness of the FAA and how they respond to situations, as well as a great deal of common sense when applying your knowledge, but you also have a love of this sport as well. (OK enough of the flattery already!)

I am aware that Transport Canada recently opened up the ability to use a small drone like a phantom for commercial use without the need of a SFOC anymore. I did not see(or I missed) the part about Transport Canada setting up a certificate course. Can you point me to where you saw that info?

Thanks

Yeah, I'd be careful with his opinions... he doesn't even know the extent of class G airspace! :S
Good job Steve, misinforming people since 1980....!

 

[SteveMann]

That's merely wishful thinking here in the USA --- many medical, news, and police helicopters are buzzing around our airspace at below 400 ft. AGL.

I'm a member of a golf course in New England (USA) and I've known the people who run the place for years. They let me fly there whenever I like, though I make sure I stay away from the golfers as that'd distract the crap out of me, having an aircraft buzzing around. :x

Anyhow... I fairly often see aircraft flying under 500 feet. One day, this moron came charging out of nowhere, actually diving down towards the golf course. He couldn't have been much more than 200 feet off the ground. He came back to make three passes and I swear one of them was closer to 100 feet up. :shock:

What happens if this genius comes back when I'm flying, runs into me and doesn't have the altitude to pull out? How would you prove he was in YOUR airspace and you weren't in his???

I was also golfing a couple of years ago, and walking around the corner of a dog leg. I hear this "Whoooosh"... look around and don't see anything, so I keep walking. In under a minute, this huge balloon comes over the tree line, and I mean JUST over the tree lne, slowly sailing right over my head, across the golf course and over the forest on the other side. Could a Phantom do heavy damage to one of those things??? :shock:

-slinger

Balloons have no altitude restrictions and they have right of way over all other aircraft since they can't steer around other A/C. The worst you could do to a hot air balloon is to put a hole in the ripstop nylon. But that stuff is pretty tough, so you may not even be able to cut a slice in the fabric if you tried. The pilot may not even notice the hole until he realizes he is using a lot more fuel to stay at altitude.
I challenge your altitude estimates. Yes, buzzing occurs, but very rarely. The FAA takes buzzing seriously and these are the pilots that other pilots want grounded. Most buzzing complaints that are investigated reveal (by reviewing the radar data tapes) that the A/C was over 500 ft, while the observers on the ground swear the aircraft was just over the treetops. Take a picture the next time you see this and be sure to include something on the ground for size reference.

 

[SteveMann]

Yeah, I'd be careful with his opinions... he doesn't even know the extent of class G airspace! :S
Good job Steve, misinforming people since 1980....!

I've been misinforming people a lot longer than that. (And, yes, Deathcode, my CFI is dormant and I haven't had a student in the left seat for more than ten years, so you are safe from my trainees.)

I did conflagellate Class G with Class E airspace. Most of my flying was IFR or VFR with Flight-following, so airspace classifications only applied to cloud and weather minimums. To be more correct the vast majority of low-altitude airspace is Class G, and as Deathcode points out, Class E is the airspace that overlays Class G airspace up to 18,000 ft. Most of the airspace up to 1,200 feet above ground level (agl) is Class G airspace. There is virtually no Class G airspace above 1,200 feet agl east of the Rocky Mountains, but Western states have some class G airspace up to 6,000 ft.
From the AIM (Airmans Information Manual):

Class G airspace includes all airspace below Flight Level 600, not otherwise classified as controlled. (AIM 3-3-1) There are no entry or clearance requirements for Class G airspace, even for IFR operations. Class G airspace is typically the airspace very near the ground (1200 feet or less), beneath Class E airspace.

The point is that if you're flying a drone not near an airport below 1200 ft, you are probably in uncontrolled airspace.

 

[SteveMann]

Just to clarify, what part of my questions sound as poorly-informed? because I'm asking very valid questions here.

I apologise if my Grumpy Old Man persona is predominate today. If you take a step back and look from a higher altitude, you will see that your questions appear to come from someone whose only exposure to drones was from the news organizations.

 

[gunslinger]

That's merely wishful thinking here in the USA --- many medical, news, and police helicopters are buzzing around our airspace at below 400 ft. AGL.

I'm a member of a golf course in New England (USA) and I've known the people who run the place for years. They let me fly there whenever I like, though I make sure I stay away from the golfers as that'd distract the crap out of me, having an aircraft buzzing around. :x

Anyhow... I fairly often see aircraft flying under 500 feet. One day, this moron came charging out of nowhere, actually diving down towards the golf course. He couldn't have been much more than 200 feet off the ground. He came back to make three passes and I swear one of them was closer to 100 feet up. :shock:

What happens if this genius comes back when I'm flying, runs into me and doesn't have the altitude to pull out? How would you prove he was in YOUR airspace and you weren't in his???

I was also golfing a couple of years ago, and walking around the corner of a dog leg. I hear this "Whoooosh"... look around and don't see anything, so I keep walking. In under a minute, this huge balloon comes over the tree line, and I mean JUST over the tree lne, slowly sailing right over my head, across the golf course and over the forest on the other side. Could a Phantom do heavy damage to one of those things??? :shock:

-slinger

Balloons have no altitude restrictions and they have right of way over all other aircraft since they can't steer around other A/C. The worst you could do to a hot air balloon is to put a hole in the ripstop nylon. But that stuff is pretty tough, so you may not even be able to cut a slice in the fabric if you tried. The pilot may not even notice the hole until he realizes he is using a lot more fuel to stay at altitude.
I challenge your altitude estimates. Yes, buzzing occurs, but very rarely. The FAA takes buzzing seriously and these are the pilots that other pilots want grounded. Most buzzing complaints that are investigated reveal (by reviewing the radar data tapes) that the A/C was over 500 ft, while the observers on the ground swear the aircraft was just over the treetops. Take a picture the next time you see this and be sure to include something on the ground for size reference.

You can challenge all you want... I was walking up the third fairway and four guys on the second tee were backing up towards the trees. This guy was a flippin' lunatic.

-slinger

 

[sergekouper]

Deathcode you still didn't say who you are... You seem to know more than you show. IMO it would be more profitable to all of us to have a constructive conversation rather than arguing with a professional pilot as you just did. First i'm sure it's going over head for many of us, and two I think it's extremely valuable for this forum to have guys who really know what they're talking about. So make peace and let's move in the right direction...

 

[SilentAV8R]

What happens if this genius comes back when I'm flying, runs into me and doesn't have the altitude to pull out? How would you prove he was in YOUR airspace and you weren't in his???

I'm interested in this concept that you have some airspace defined for your use that a full size plane would be violating. Can you point out where that is defined and by whom?

 

[Deathcode]

Deathcode you still didn't say who you are... You seem to know more than you show. IMO it would be more profitable to all of us to have a constructive conversation rather than arguing with a professional pilot as you just did. First i'm sure it's going over head for many of us, and two I think it's extremely valuable for this forum to have guys who really know what they're talking about. So make peace and let's move in the right direction...

Sure, I agree with your statement, and I never intended to argue with anyone, I was merely asking questions about the drop pilot community and get a sense of who's flying drones and the level of knowledge on the technology. Again, these are not RC controlled airplanes where LOS is the norm.
To answer your question I can describe myself in three main sentences as I did in other posts:
1) i'm a current FAA certified private pilot with 102 hours (I do this as a hobby and not trying to pursue commercial certifications). That might explain my knowledge of airspace, FAA regulations, and my concern about people flying drones in controlled airspace.
2) I'm an IT professional that specializes in data storage. So this explains my fascination with technology.
3) I built a couple of RC kits in the past so the RC world is not totally unfamiliar to me.

That being said, I'm completely new to the world of drones and my goals with them are three:
Short term: it's in the mail now, arriving Friday. Phantom 2 v2 non-vision. To learn and get acquainted with it. I'll probably disassemble it after a week or so knowing me.
Medium term: to built my own using a kit like the flame wheel 550.
Long term: to partner with a good friend of mine and start designing our own drone technology.

I hope I was able to answer my question of who I am.

 

[Deathcode]

What happens if this genius comes back when I'm flying, runs into me and doesn't have the altitude to pull out? How would you prove he was in YOUR airspace and you weren't in his???

I'm interested in this concept that you have some airspace defined for your use that a full size plane would be violating. Can you point out where that is defined and by whom?

FAA rules, and this may apply to European rules State the following:
In the US, Part 91 of the FAR the minimum safe altitudes by which aircraft can be operated in the National Airspace System.
500 ft rule
An aircraft must maintain an altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.
1000 ft rule
An aircraft must maintain an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons.

This does not apply in take-off / landing operations though. So, to answer your question, the guy was flying at an illegal altitude.

 

[SilentAV8R]

So your interpretation is that the altitude limits defined in 91.119 carves out airspace for UAVs?? I can tell you that the FAA does not agree with that. You also forgot the parts about other aircraft:

(d) Helicopters, powered parachutes, and weight-shift-control aircraft. If the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface—

(1) A helicopter may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (b) or (c) of this section, provided each person operating the helicopter complies with any routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the FAA; and

(2) A powered parachute or weight-shift-control aircraft may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (c) of this section.

 

[Deathcode]

So your interpretation is that the altitude limits defined in 91.119 carves out airspace for UAVs?? I can tell you that the FAA does not agree with that. You also forgot the parts about other aircraft:

(d) Helicopters, powered parachutes, and weight-shift-control aircraft. If the operation is conducted without hazard to persons or property on the surface—

(1) A helicopter may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (b) or (c) of this section, provided each person operating the helicopter complies with any routes or altitudes specifically prescribed for helicopters by the FAA; and

(2) A powered parachute or weight-shift-control aircraft may be operated at less than the minimums prescribed in paragraph (c) of this section.

I'm aware of the other types of aircrafts, I was addressing gunslinger's incident where he seems to be referring to an airplane rather than any other type of aircraft.
My interpretation is that class golf airspace is uncontrolled, therefore drones should be flown in that airspace until further regulations are in place for drones, either legal or with the use of technology. As there's no way for ATC to identify drones in controlled airspace, they are small for radar and they do not have transponders with mode c (altitude reporting capabilities)

 

[gunslinger]

What happens if this genius comes back when I'm flying, runs into me and doesn't have the altitude to pull out? How would you prove he was in YOUR airspace and you weren't in his???

I'm interested in this concept that you have some airspace defined for your use that a full size plane would be violating. Can you point out where that is defined and by whom?

Concept??? If I'm flying at 300' like a good boy and some fool in a piper does a fly by at that altitude and hits me... how do you prove who was at which altitude when the crash occurred. I think my airspace would be under 400', correct?

If you were standing on the golf course the day this nitwit buzzed us, you wouldn't need to question how a full size plane would be violating that airspace... You seem to be assuming that all full size plane pilots play by the rules... not the case.

-slinger

 

[SteveMann]

If you were standing on the golf course the day this nitwit buzzed us, you wouldn't need to question how a full size plane would be violating that airspace... You seem to be assuming that all full size plane pilots play by the rules... not the case.
-slinger

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. It does and there are a few buzzing accidents every year. I've seen it myself. (Ironically a C210 buzzing an AMA field at about 100 ft). It makes all pilots look bad which is why a licensed pilot really wants the FAA to nail them. If the aircraft is low enough to read the tail number then they are probably below 500 ft. If you can get a photo, even better. Call the FAA with the tail number, date and time, location and your contact information. If the area is covered with radar the FAA will obtain the data tape and investigate. However, if you don't leave your contact information, the call is just logged, but not acted on.

 

[ThinkItThrough]

I fly a powered paraglider and I just received my phantom...first flight tomorrow. The idea of commercial drones like Amazon scares me a little but I am not really concerned about hobby pilots. Most are responsible and fly line of sight and its a big sky. When flying my ppg, I more likely to be brought down by a bad thermal than a drone.

We are far better off if we self police than if we leave it to the government. They will give in to an uneducated public opinion rather than use logical sense.

 

[SilentAV8R]

Sorry 'Slinger, but as modelers WE are the ones with the responsibility to avoid full scale traffic at all times. WE cannot die if there is an accident. And Class G or not, it is NOT "our" airspace. This is sort of like the rear end accident situation. If you rear end somebody it is almost always your fault. Even if they jammed their brakes on. If you collide with a full scale aircraft, even if it is violating 91.119, or any other FAR, YOU are still the one who is going to be held responsible.

Want proof? Read this:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief ... 487&akey=1

Here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoZD9pczEVs

 

[gunslinger]

If you were standing on the golf course the day this nitwit buzzed us, you wouldn't need to question how a full size plane would be violating that airspace... You seem to be assuming that all full size plane pilots play by the rules... not the case.
-slinger

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. It does and there are a few buzzing accidents every year. I've seen it myself. (Ironically a C210 buzzing an AMA field at about 100 ft). It makes all pilots look bad which is why a licensed pilot really wants the FAA to nail them. If the aircraft is low enough to read the tail number then they are probably below 500 ft. If you can get a photo, even better. Call the FAA with the tail number, date and time, location and your contact information. If the area is covered with radar the FAA will obtain the data tape and investigate. However, if you don't leave your contact information, the call is just logged, but not acted on.

I can't believe I didn't write down any of the information, but I didn't. The first time he went through he startled the hell out of me. When he came back from the opposite direction, I thought that was it. The third, and last, pass was even lower and he was actually canted down towards the fairway. If I had it to do over I'd have whipped out my phone and shot continuous stills. I usually think pretty well on my feet and have no excuse for just being a bystander...

-slinger

 

[gunslinger]

Sorry 'Slinger, but as modelers WE are the ones with the responsibility to avoid full scale traffic at all times. WE cannot die if there is an accident. And Class G or not, it is NOT "our" airspace. This is sort of like the rear end accident situation. If you rear end somebody it is almost always your fault. Even if they jammed their brakes on. If you collide with a full scale aircraft, even if it is violating 91.119, or any other FAR, YOU are still the one who is going to be held responsible.

Want proof? Read this:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief ... 487&akey=1

Here's the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoZD9pczEVs

Yep. I'm not surprised. I'm just very, very happy I was golfing that day and not flying... :shock: :shock: :shock:

-slinger

 

[N017RW]

Complacency kills.