Trying to Fly Under a TFR

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Hi Guys:

A few days ago I tried to fly my DJI Phantom 4 Pro V2.0 under a permanent TFR. I am very familiar with airspace restrictions, having over 5000 hours as a pilot in manned aircraft. I went to a park and tried to take off under a large shade tree. I was within the physical confines of the TFR, but technically below it because I was under the tree. My understanding is that the FAA has no jurisdiction over airspace that is under permanent structures. For example, flying a drone in your house, or inside a warehouse, that are under the TFR, would be outside the FAA's jurisdiction, or at least outside of any controlled airspace.

You are probably not surprised when I tell you that the DJI system would not let me take off, logically thinking that I was trying to fly in the TFR. This brings up the question of how to work around the requirement when you are under the TFR -- such as under the tree or flying inside your house. I know that my drone will pick up enough satellite inside my living room to let me fly in full green inside my house. So ... for you poor souls who live under a TFR, what do you do if you want to fly inside and you're under the TFR? (I regularly fly inside to test my system and make sure its all up-to-date before going on an important drone mission).

My second question is if a work-around would be what I tried this evening in my house. (My house is outside the TFR.) I covered the Phantom with a space blanket and powered everything up. The controller connected to the drone, but the drone could not pick up any satellites. The drone did not know where it was. I removed the space blanket and immediately took off before it could acquire any satellites. The question, then ... is ... would this be a work-around for taking off below the TFR? Once the drone is airborne, I think we have full control -- even if the system continues to warn about the airspace (don't know what happens related to any return-to-home functions).

I have a Part 107. What if I get a client who wants me to use the drone to film inside his warehouse, or inside a hall during a wedding, and its located under the TFR? What do you guys do in that situation to work around DJI's restrictions on flights that it thinks are in the TFR, but which are not ... ? Is my low-tech, but very easy, space blanket idea logical? Or is there a more professional way around the problem?

I've had people tell me I need to get FAA clearance in these situations, but my response is that I'm not in the TFR and no FAA clearance is needed.

Thanks for any comments or advice.
 
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A TFR is a TFR, whether you're under a tree or not.

Technically a tree is not considered a structure since it is natural. Under can most certainly be considered non-navigable airspace. So there is that, but once you're no longer under that tree you are in navigable airspace.

Flying inside a building would obviously be non-navigable airspace, and well within your rights to fly. The problem is unlock.

DJI unlock is based on GPS location, and does not take Into account whether or not you're inside a building. If you do not have GPS inside the building, or disable it somehow, you can fly. However if at any time you do obtain GPS, you will be force landed.

You can get an unlock via the DJI page (Fly Safe – Drone Flying Tips, Policies & Regulations, and More – DJI) by going to the "Unlock a zone" page and following those directions.

However, the unlock is also based on GPS, so if you're flying inside a building and lose GPS, you will be force landed.

You can also reach out to [email protected] and see if they can help you as well. But if it's for the Disney TFR, I promise you wont get an unlock. Because you have to get permission from both the FAA and Disney (the TFR holder) before you can fly, and Disney does not give permissions.
 
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It depends on how the TFR has been implemented in DJI's geofencing system.

Many (all?) of the permanent TFRs such as D.C., Disneyland etc. are restricted zones, which require custom unlocking. For that you will need a letter of authorization from the controlling agency.

Most temporary TFRs are actually authorization zones and can be self-unlocked without providing any authorization evidence - not that doing that makes it legal to fly outdoors in that TFR. It is a legitimate solution for flying indoors, however.
 
First off WELCOME to the forum and the wonderful addiction called sUAS/Drones.

Being you're a Part 61 holder I'm a little surprised at your attitude re:TFR's. Keep in mind that DJI's GeoFence system isn't 3D so it doesn't take altitudes etc into account. It's a 2D system utilizing GPS coordinates to restrict motor arming in the HOT zones. I'm not sure how you would expect the TFR to not include you being "under a tree" nor why that should really matter. Keep in mind that the aircraft can fly autonomously (or there's always operator error) and could fly well outside of the "protection" of said tree and cause problems to other aircraft that would not be expecting it to pop up in a TFR.

The Space Blanket method works (most just use aluminum foil) but as stated above once the aircraft reaquires GPS etc it will Auto Land and I mean RIGHT THEN AND THERE regardless of what you do or where it is. I know from first hand experience.

Enjoy your endeavors and SAFE FLIGHTS!
Allen
 
I was within the physical confines of the TFR, but technically below it because I was under the tree.
Technically below it?? The TFR goes to surface so unless you were flying underground, there is no way to fly below it.

My understanding is that the FAA has no jurisdiction over airspace that is under permanent structures.
True, but in your quote you said "permanent structures" and a tree is not a permanent structure.
So ... for you poor souls who live under a TFR, what do you do if you want to fly inside and you're under the TFR?
In most cases you will not get GPS coverage inside a covered permanent indoor structure like a warehouse or convention hall. I know that none of my drones get coverage in interior portions of my home. If I am near windows then it is slow to acquire but will get a GPS lock. In the rare cases where you are indoors and do get a GPS lock, the aluminum foil trick works well.
Once the drone is airborne, I think we have full control -- even if the system continues to warn about the airspace (don't know what happens related to any return-to-home functions).
As soon as a GPS lock is achieved and you are in any sort of NFZ, the drone will land. It does not matter if you are just hovering, moving, or in RTH. You are violating airspace regulations and the only thing it can do is land. You can thus imagine that flying over water near any NFZ can be a perilous situation.
I have a Part 107. What if I get a client who wants me to use the drone to film inside his warehouse, or inside a hall during a wedding, and its located under the TFR? What do you guys do in that situation to work around DJI's restrictions on flights that it thinks are in the TFR, but which are not ... ?
Generally you shouldn't have GPS coverage in a hall so it should not be a problem. Flying indoors for a wedding or convention though is a whole different issue. Since it is not navigable airspace, the FAA has no jurisdiction at all. So technically you could fly over people. However, would you want to take the risk of flying over people in close quarters with a drone in ATTI mode? Make sure you have your liability insurance in place and check to see if it covers you for flying over people and/or indoors.
I've had people tell me I need to get FAA clearance in these situations, but my response is that I'm not in the TFR and no FAA clearance is needed.
True, you don't need FAA clearance. However if you do have GPS coverage, then you still need a DJI NFZ unlock. You can do that ahead of time and download the license to your drone so that you don't have issues onsite. It still wouldn't help you in situations where external authorization is needed.
 
Thank you, everyone, for taking time to provide your comments and insights. I can assure you I have total respect for TFRs, having flown law enforcement aircraft for years. I did not realize that DJI would force an auto-land as soon as GPS signal is acquired, even if one is successful in getting the Phantom airborne beforehand. From what you are saying, it sounds like it forces a landing immediately. I think I'll be in a situation next week where I'll be able to legally fly under a permanent TFR. I'll be under a structure where I'm pretty sure I'll have GPS coverage. I'll report back on how fast the drone is forced to land, or if I can keep it aloft via any control manipulation, or in ATTI mode, or something. Thanks again all!
 
Thank you, everyone, for taking time to provide your comments and insights. I can assure you I have total respect for TFRs, having flown law enforcement aircraft for years. I did not realize that DJI would force an auto-land as soon as GPS signal is acquired, even if one is successful in getting the Phantom airborne beforehand. From what you are saying, it sounds like it forces a landing immediately. I think I'll be in a situation next week where I'll be able to legally fly under a permanent TFR. I'll be under a structure where I'm pretty sure I'll have GPS coverage. I'll report back on how fast the drone is forced to land, or if I can keep it aloft via any control manipulation, or in ATTI mode, or something. Thanks again all!

Just in case it wasn't clear - there is no mechanism to keep the aircraft flying in a TFR once it acquires a GNSS position. Your only option, other than an unlock, is to block or disconnect the GPS module.
 
My God, the land of the free! Big Brother is alive and well in the good ol’ USA!
 
My God, the land of the free! Big Brother is alive and well in the good ol’ USA!


Because of this "Big Brother" we have called the FAA we have not only the SAFEST controlled airspace in the world but more importantly the BUSIEST and the SAFEST controlled airspace on the planet. That's not a coincidence in any stretch of the imagination.
 
In my experience the FAA will not issue a clearance if you are not in controlled airspace, which inside the building you are not. I suppose you could get a Letter of Interpretation (LOI) from the FAA stating that the space within a warehouse or wedding venue is not within controlled airspace. Based upon prior DJI experience, I doubt you will find a practical solution with them.

The conclusion I have come to is that DJI does not want professional users of their equipment, because they make it impossible to competitively operate their equipment, even when in full compliance with all FARs as well as industry best practices.

I am now looking for the drone I expect to be able to make some money with, since I live in an urban area, and want to film inside urban venues, with airports nearby.
 
I obviously wasn’t referring to the FAA’s role in aircraft safety. They are internationally recognised as leaders in this area. I was commenting on the mishmash of rules that seem to be causing such angst for unmanned vehicles of all sorts. There doesn’t seem to be any coordination of policies and laws.
 
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I’m curious How can a TFR be permanent when it stands for TEMPORARY flight restriction?
 
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I’m curious How can a TFR be permanent when it stands for TEMPORARY flight restriction?
It's just one example of the MANY Oxymorons our Govt is comfortable with. I've read Perm TFR many times and I always chuckle from it.
 
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In searching for a solution to fly (legally) under restricted airspace (such as in a building), I took a few minutes and made an X-Men Magneto-style helmet for my Phantom to block the GPS signals. It actually worked pretty well. Using kitchen tin foil and masking tape, I was able to mold a helmet onto the Phantom, and then tape it on, all without blocking any of the unit's proximity sensors. As you can see from the photos, all GPS signals were blocked, but I still had good control of the drone. I carefully flew it for 10-15 minutes, landing and taking off several times, and always keeping the bird within about 50 yards.

So ... in a pinch ... if you have a commercial job in a building under a TFR, for example, you could make yourself a Magneto-style drone helmet like this one. You'll need to fly carefully, but it's a cheap and easy solution.

In saying all of the above, I am in no way advocating use of this method to violate any airspace rules. I would only use it to get the job done when DJI thinks my bird is in no-fly airspace and I know it's not.

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