NTSB Report is out on Phantom4 vs Blackhawk from Sept 2017

[BigAl07]

The Initial report is out and it sounds very accurate.
NTSB News Release
National Transportation Safety Board Office of Public Affairs
Drone Operator Errors Caused Drone, Helicopter Collision
12/14/2017

 

[BigAl07]

And here is some more details about it:

Drone far beyond sight during Black Hawk collision - AOPA

 

[Joe R]

I was curious what everyone does that fly's hobby to check for TFR's before flying.
Thanks
Joe

 

[N017RW]

Is it a sretch to suggest the results of this investigation is the genesis of the much discussed ‘quiz’?

 

[Bakersfield Quad]

I saw nothing on the FAA sight when I was registering, telling recreational pilots to read TFRs. I think that sometimes it is not that easy for a recreational pilot to be aware of such events as a Presidential Flight, not exactly something I would check for before going out.

 

[BigAl07]

I saw nothing on the FAA sight when I was registering, telling recreational pilots to read TFRs. I think that sometimes it is not that easy for a recreational pilot to be aware of such events as a Presidential Flight, not exactly something I would check for before going out.

@Bakersfield Quad
no offense to you but that's exactly the problem. We are operating in the National Airspace System and as such we need to go above and beyond "opening the box, looking at the pictures, charging, and hitting the power button". IMHO anyone who wants to operate a sUAS that has the ability to fly over 100'AGL, >500' from take off point, has Gyro Stabilization, has GPS positioning should be required to take as a MIN Part 107 testing and pass. Also I think Part 107 is way too easy and it needs to be advanced by a large degree.

Do I think that a VERY large # of sUAS operators simply know and don't care? Absolutely as evidenced here and on many other similar forums. But at the same time I think the FAA has dropped the ball (again) and made entry into the NAS way too easy and they should make education mandatory and "verified" across the board.

Fact of the matter a POTUS TFR (or any VIP movement TFR for that matter) could pop up anywhere in the CONUS as any time. If you happen to be flying from a device that is not connected to the internet (very much like I do) you won't know about it unless you have the knowledge and foresight to physically check and check in the right places.

 

[Bakersfield Quad]

Well, if they are going to make rec pilots of drones take courses, why not all RC aircraft? Why just drones? I know a few people that do LONG RANGE flights with flying wings and such. They have nothing to keep them below 400' either, their drones don't know they are too high. BUT they appear to be exempt to this necessity to inform us, why?
I am a Certified Pilot, so I know about the rules and regs, but what I am saying, is there is nothing to tell those who are not so informed, where to look.

 

[Mark The Droner]

I use airmap, and so far, it has worked for me. Last Jan 20th and 21st we had a TFR here in the DC area due to the inauguration. The TFR was listed on both airmap and the uavforecast site, which informed me and kept me from flying during the specific TFR hours of those days (wind was relatively calm both days and great for flying, but I stayed grounded). Point is, it's a simple matter to take a quick look for a TFR, it takes less than a minute.

 

[BigAl07]

Well, if they are going to make rec pilots of drones take courses, why not all RC aircraft? Why just drones? I know a few people that do LONG RANGE flights with flying wings and such. They have nothing to keep them below 400' either, their drones don't know they are too high. BUT they appear to be exempt to this necessity to inform us, why?
I am a Certified Pilot, so I know about the rules and regs, but what I am saying, is there is nothing to tell those who are not so informed, where to look.

These rules are not "Drone" rules but sUAS rules so they also apply to Airplanes and Helicopters. I've been flying these for 4 decades and I can assure you taking a test and registering is the easier part of flying an R/C Plane or Heli.

They are NOT exempt and if there is an "Incident" they would suffer the same scrutiny as anyone flying a MultiRotor. They are ALL aircraft now the only difference is how you fly them.

 

[Bakersfield Quad]

These rules are not "Drone" rules but sUAS rules so they also apply to Airplanes and Helicopters. I've been flying these for 4 decades and I can assure you taking a test and registering is the easier part of flying an R/C Plane or Heli.

They are NOT exempt and if there is an "Incident" they would suffer the same scrutiny as anyone flying a MultiRotor. They are ALL aircraft now the only difference is how you fly them.

But what I do not quite understand, why do I have to register because I fly a Multi-rotor, but you do not, flying a fixed wing? Seems that Quads are being picked out for some reason.
Hey, I will get my Part 107, if I had to, though I would think that my pilot's certificate should have covered that. But, if a Quad is a Quad, then what about racing Quads and Free Style pilots? Why just what we call drones or what are multi-rotor camera platforms. You can fly a Quad for miles, just like a P4P, a fixed wing, flying wing is used a lot, doing long distance flying, they don't have to register, why?

 

[BigAl07]

But what I do not quite understand, why do I have to register because I fly a Multi-rotor, but you do not, flying a fixed wing? Seems that Quads are being picked out for some reason.
Hey, I will get my Part 107, if I had to, though I would think that my pilot's certificate should have covered that. But, if a Quad is a Quad, then what about racing Quads and Free Style pilots? Why just what we call drones or what are multi-rotor camera platforms. You can fly a Quad for miles, just like a P4P, a fixed wing, flying wing is used a lot, doing long distance flying, they don't have to register, why?

You DO register if flying a fixed wing. All sUAS are lumped into one category called "Aircraft". It's not a MultiRotor/Quad/Hex/Octo law but sUAS (or Drone) which is airplanes, helicopters, Multirotors and all.

 

[Bakersfield Quad]

You DO register if flying a fixed wing. All sUAS are lumped into one category called "Aircraft". It's not a MultiRotor/Quad/Hex/Octo law but sUAS (or Drone) which is airplanes, helicopters, Multirotors and all.

Ah, so you have a number you display on each aircraft, as advised with your registered Drone? I did not know that, I have not seen numbers on any at the local club. Fixed wings or Quads, they are members of the AMA, but I have not heard anything about registration.
Do forgive me, I have not flown RC for some years, until the P4P.

 

[BigAl07]

Ah, so you have a number you display on each aircraft, as advised with your registered Drone? I did not know that, I have not seen numbers on any at the local club. Fixed wings or Quads, they are members of the AMA, but I have not heard anything about registration.
Do forgive me, I have not flown RC for some years, until the P4P.

Keep in mind Hobby Registration didn't go into effect until Late 2015 (or was it 2016?) so if you haven't flown since then I can see why it would see uneven playing field.

Many clubs "felt" (because at one time it was thought this would happen) that the AMA Member# would suffice as Hobby Registration with the FAA but that was not the case. Much to their disappointment Hobby Registration was rolled out to all sUAS not just MultiRotors. Just because the clubs aren't doing it doesn't mean they aren't in violation. The difference now is it's a LAW that went through the proper channels and signed by POTUS Trump and went into full effect the moment he placed ink to paper.

Really, to be blunt, RC Planes & Heli aren't usually flying 3 miles away out of line of sight and autonomously (yes I know and own exceptions) over cities and sporting events. Billy Bob and his 10 year old at a remote R/C flying field flying a Yellow Cub on the Buddy Box isn't really the root of this law. But they are now covered by it just like the rest of us at least from a legal stand point.

 

[Michael Humphrey]

Preflight routines must be part of your flying experience. Google some types of “checklists”. in them should be a check of where you plan to fly also.
Use apps that will give you TRUSTED information.
Kittyhawk.io is an excellent app even in the basic package.
AirMap
Even UAV Forecast has the TFR’s for view.
There is no excuse for anyone to lift off in ignorance.
You jeopardize lives and for some income. Many whine about the preflight quiz DJI has out there but it looks like it is needed.

 

[m0j0]

I don't agree. I agree with the lack of understanding some of the basics but... I do not agree that everyone should be required to pass the 107 or that the 107 is to easy. It isn't easy for someone new to aviation. To be honest though most of that stuff is unnecessary for operation under 107. When you start getting into the waiver areas though yes you need to understand everything. In all of my flights commercial and for fun, I can say 107 knowledge was not really necessary.

For recreational flights no! Absolutely no reason to have to take a test. Follow the rules and that would stop almost every real or mostly imagined drone incident. The problem lies in people not following the rules. Unfortunately, that isn't ever going away. No amount of podium pounding will change it.

 

[N017RW]

I guess that could be acceptable if only your aircraft was at risk since you are not.

But in the NAS many souls are at risk not to mention the terrestrial folks and property.

 

[m0j0]

Keep in mind Hobby Registration didn't go into effect until Late 2015 (or was it 2016?) so if you haven't flown since then I can see why it would see uneven playing field.

Many clubs "felt" (because at one time it was thought this would happen) that the AMA Member# would suffice as Hobby Registration with the FAA but that was not the case. Much to their disappointment Hobby Registration was rolled out to all sUAS not just MultiRotors. Just because the clubs aren't doing it doesn't mean they aren't in violation. The difference now is it's a LAW that went through the proper channels and signed by POTUS Trump and went into full effect the moment he placed ink to paper.

Really, to be blunt, RC Planes & Heli aren't usually flying 3 miles away out of line of sight and autonomously (yes I know and own exceptions) over cities and sporting events. Billy Bob and his 10 year old at a remote R/C flying field flying a Yellow Cub on the Buddy Box isn't really the root of this law. But they are now covered by it just like the rest of us at least from a legal stand point.

Funny you would say that most RC planes aren't beyond line of sight. I spoke yesterday to a tech who is responsible for representing my division in the development of a sUAS program. I took the 107 so that I could be one of the pilots in command when the program launched. Yesterday the tech tells me that he is developing a prototype aircraft that can fly out 7 miles and loiter with a flight time of 7 hours. I looked at him and walked away. I have voiced my opinion a number of times on the use of sUAS in law enforcement applications. It has a use in providing top cover for high risk entry. Has a use in providing eyes in areas where ground surveillance is not feasible.. but 7 miles away.. nope! That's insane, I want no part of it. I think planes that can fly farther because they are more efficient are more dangerous than quads. Wait and see.

 

[Mark The Droner]

Things are happening so fast!

The Feds are already discussing ways to make it legal to fly out of VLOS. Granted it would be commercial, but still. It's like a blinding storm. Technology needs to catch up with capability. These ACs can be tracked and managed in the air. The technology is already available. Look at Flytrex. It used cell towers to locate and track drones, live, and it has been doing it for at least three years. Somebody just needs to step up and figure it out. Things will smooth out eventually, but in the meantime we have some major bumps in the road.

 

[N017RW]

Funny you would say that most RC planes aren't beyond line of sight. I spoke yesterday to a tech who is responsible for representing my division in the development of a sUAS program. I took the 107 so that I could be one of the pilots in command when the program launched. Yesterday the tech tells me that he is developing a prototype aircraft that can fly out 7 miles and loiter with a flight time of 7 hours. I looked at him and walked away. I have voiced my opinion a number of times on the use of sUAS in law enforcement applications. It has a use in providing top cover for high risk entry. Has a use in providing eyes in areas where ground surveillance is not feasible.. but 7 miles away.. nope! That's insane, I want no part of it. I think planes that can fly farther because they are more efficient are more dangerous than quads. Wait and see.

Folks have been flying r/c aircraft since, I’m not sure exactly but 60-70 years?, and yea the overwhelming majority are VLOS. Basing an opinion on future capabilities is just that, in the future.

 

[Helihover]

Funny you would say that most RC planes aren't beyond line of sight. I spoke yesterday to a tech who is responsible for representing my division in the development of a sUAS program. I took the 107 so that I could be one of the pilots in command when the program launched. Yesterday the tech tells me that he is developing a prototype aircraft that can fly out 7 miles and loiter with a flight time of 7 hours. I looked at him and walked away. I have voiced my opinion a number of times on the use of sUAS in law enforcement applications. It has a use in providing top cover for high risk entry. Has a use in providing eyes in areas where ground surveillance is not feasible.. but 7 miles away.. nope! That's insane, I want no part of it. I think planes that can fly farther because they are more efficient are more dangerous than quads. Wait and see.

Al is specifically talking about non GPS controlled aircraft. Theres a HUGE difference. Some of the older RC pilots know that it actually requires skill to fly an RC heli or plane and thats what sets them apart. Anyone can fly a Phantom, like a 5 year old, and pretty good I might add. Some spend years just learning to properly hover a CP RC heli. No person flying a non GPS craft is going to fly beyond visual sight because if you do, your going to crash.