Line of Sight - really?!

[Tink]

Sometimes, this place is bi-polar.

I'd like to see what the answer would be of all these responders if an FSDO officer said he'd like to come along on your next flight to see how you do.

The last thread I read was about a newbie that wanted to do a remote, small town bike race. UNLESS YOU HAVE A GAMILLION DOLLARS OF INSURANCE, YOU'RE CRAZY - DON'T DO IT!

Contrasted with this VLOS doesn't really have anything to do with being able to visually SEE it. To be clear, I'm NOT judging what you do! Just the justification that what you do is right.

As for the speeding comparison, I do, on occasion, drive faster than I should. I haven't had a ticket in 10+ years, but when I do get one, I just accept it and thank the officer for his service. Because I deserved it. If someone from a FSDO showed up while I was a mile and a half out, I would do the same. Busted.

 

[zander lane]

...from my 107 training I recall a certain section on VLOS that stated an actual distance the FAA agreed upon as max VLOS distance and the magic number was 1,500' - and even at that distance, orientation and avoidance is going to be WAY challenging, to say the least! - I know people will always go farther, because they can so easily, but PLEASE PROCEED WITH EXTREME CAUTION if you decide to "go rogue" above any kind of population; don't be "THAT GUY" who crashed into the baby's face and that caused a four-car pileup and subsequently got new stringent regulations put in place and now I have to get a $2,700 permit and $5M in insurance to launch from my backyard...ok, end of VLOS rant!

 

[Mimoid]

...from my 107 training I recall a certain section on VLOS that stated an actual distance the FAA agreed upon as max VLOS distance and the magic number was 1,500' - and even at that distance, orientation and avoidance is going to be WAY challenging, to say the least! - I know people will always go farther, because they can so easily, but PLEASE PROCEED WITH EXTREME CAUTION if you decide to "go rogue" above any kind of population; don't be "THAT GUY" who crashed into the baby's face and that caused a four-car pileup and subsequently got new stringent regulations put in place and now I have to get a $2,700 permit and $5M in insurance to launch from my backyard...ok, end of VLOS rant!

I have flewn a few km out just to try out if it was possible, but I made sure to fly above a forested area so if the Phantom would crash, I would not cause any collateral damage.

Nowadays my personal limit is that I should always be able to fly home without the camera image or the telemetry. I should be able to lose the iPhone and the GPS signal completely and still be able to fly home and land safely. I admit that sometimes I lose visual track of the drone, but I can always hear it and I always know which way it is heading.

/// Tom

 

[dave kotinsky]

The FAA says VLOS, if you can't see it then you don't have visual line of sight. I have been contemplating getting a strobe so I can see it better. This the exact reason the Mavic pro is not that appealing to me, it will be very difficult to see.


Sent from my iPhone using PhantomPilots

Good lights I just got, strobe mode too:

 

[Phil Tuggle]

...from my 107 training I recall a certain section on VLOS that stated an actual distance the FAA agreed upon as max VLOS distance and the magic number was 1,500' - and even at that distance, orientation and avoidance is going to be WAY challenging, to say the least! - I know people will always go farther, because they can so easily, but PLEASE PROCEED WITH EXTREME CAUTION if you decide to "go rogue" above any kind of population; don't be "THAT GUY" who crashed into the baby's face and that caused a four-car pileup and subsequently got new stringent regulations put in place and now I have to get a $2,700 permit and $5M in insurance to launch from my backyard...ok, end of VLOS rant!

So GLAD you chimed-in. The VLOS max, as interpreted (not clearly codified) by the FAA (who else?), is indeed agreed upon as 1500 feet max in clear air. Beyond that, it is called EVLOS , requiring a waiver (ExtendedVLOS; you cant quite see the drone's orientation, but you can see and avoid manned aircraft and obstacles - still can't fly behind anything). The key is that the operator - BOTH hobby and commercial - MUST maintain situational awareness (often referred to by FAA as "see and avoid"); this means you need to have ACTUAL VISUAL CONTACT with your drone at all times such that you can assess its location, its altitude, its orientation, and its direction of flight - ALL of those things. And, with apologies to the radio signal crowd, yes the V in VLOS actually means VISUAL, using your actual eyes. Sorry. You CAN get a waiver though. I don't like it any more than the next pilot, but there ya go. Will I still fly way way WAY out over the ocean for fun? You bet. And I WISH the daggone FAA would paste a clear definition of VLOS someplace other than their discussions and recommendations...and within their citations for unsafe or hazardous operation.

Additionally, a lot of people do recommend the Verifly App for insurance - if you choose to have it - but guess what? If an unplanned negative event (called an accident) results in injury or damage outside of VLOS, my most educated guess is they will instantly void any coverage you may have purchased.

 

[chadguy]

I'm about to replace the upper and lower shells on my P3 due to growing stress fractures, but before I do, I'm painting the new shells black. This should make it easier to see during the day against the blue sky.

From what I've read, if you're flying at night, the FAA requires that, "The drone must be equipped with anti-collision lighting visible for at least 5,000 feet," among other requirements, so painting the shell black won't affect the VLOS much at night.

 

[dangerd]

In the US, there really isn't a clear definition of what "Visual line-of-sight" means. As someone who's been flying R/C aircraft for 40+ years, VLOS has always meant, to me, being able to see the aircraft and understand its orientation so that I can visually fly it back to me because for the vast majority of my R/C career, there were no quad copters, no GPS, no autonomous features whatsoever. If you couldn't see the aircraft, it was gone. If you couldn't see its orientation, it was going to crash.

Now, that's all different, so personally, I have reinterpreted VLOS to mean an "unobstructed view", even if you can's see how it's pointed and maybe not even completely clear on exactly where it is. I do try to maintain VLOS at all times. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

In the UK, from what I read, the interpretation is a little different. The CAA says : "The person in charge of a small unmanned aircraft must maintain direct, unaided visual contact with the aircraft sufficient to monitor its flight path in relation to other aircraft, persons, vehicles, vessels and structures for the purpose of avoiding collisions." That seems to me to be a little less vague than "visual line of sight".

Where is the unclear part? :
§107.31 Visual line of sight aircraft operation.

(a) With vision that is unaided by any device other than corrective lenses, the remote pilot in command, the visual observer (if one is used), and the person manipulating the flight control of the small unmanned aircraft system must be able to see the unmanned aircraft throughout the entire flight in order to:

(1) Know the unmanned aircraft's location;

(2) Determine the unmanned aircraft's attitude, altitude, and direction of flight;

(3) Observe the airspace for other air traffic or hazards; and

(4) Determine that the unmanned aircraft does not endanger the life or property of another.

(b) Throughout the entire flight of the small unmanned aircraft, the ability described in paragraph (a) of this section must be exercised by either:

(1) The remote pilot in command and the person manipulating the flight controls of the small unmanned aircraft system; or

(2) A visual observer.

 

[daveisim]

From what I've read, if you're flying at night, the FAA requires that, "The drone must be equipped with anti-collision lighting visible for at least 5,000 feet,"

I think that was under the relaxed 333 rules and/o only a daylight exemption for Industrial SkyWorks’s (“SkyWorks”) as I can only find reference to 5,000 ft at Historic FAA Decision Approves Night Operations for Drones | On the Radar

The actual 107.29 rule has a 3 statute miles distance.

from my 107 training I recall a certain section on VLOS that stated an actual distance the FAA agreed upon as max VLOS distance and the magic number was 1,500'

Odd that I've never encountered verbiage that max. VLOS is 1,500 ft. Can you provide a source, please? I do see some references to 500m for CAA UAV operators

 

[Phil Tuggle]

Where is the unclear part? :
§107.31 Visual line of sight aircraft operation.

(a) With vision that is unaided by any device other than corrective lenses, the remote pilot in command, the visual observer (if one is used), and the person manipulating the flight control of the small unmanned aircraft system must be able to see the unmanned aircraft throughout the entire flight in order to:

(1) Know the unmanned aircraft's location;

(2) Determine the unmanned aircraft's attitude, altitude, and direction of flight;

(3) Observe the airspace for other air traffic or hazards; and ....

Oh. There it is - THANKS!

 

[Phil Tuggle]

I

Odd that I've never encountered verbiage that max. VLOS is 1,500 ft. Can you provide a source, please? I do see some references to 500m for CAA UAV operators

I have read it many places, but never have I seen it "codified" in a Rule or Regulation. I'll keep looking.

 

[davoud]

I have read that we should always keep our drone in 'line of sight'. But today I flew out of beginner mode for the first time and at 50 metres I was already having trouble keeping the drone in view! What about 300 or 400 metres, are you kidding me, how will I be able to still see the bird?!

So, am I misunderstanding the meaning of 'line of sight' or are you guys just expecting to fly via view on your phone or tablet? Can you even spot your drone when she's half a kilometre or more away?

You should already know the answer to this. If not, ask yourself how willing you are to endanger people with your UAV. Are you prepared to accept responsibility for property damage? The people who can't have accidents notwithstanding, there are very good reasons for maintaining visual contact with your UAV —including federal regulations.

 

[WilliamM]

You should already know the answer to this. If not, ask yourself how willing you are to endanger people with your UAV. Are you prepared to accept responsibility for property damage? The macho asses who can't have accidents notwithstanding, there are very good reasons for maintaining visual contact with your UAV —including federal regulations.

I fly out one, two or three km all the time and will continue to do so no matter what the self appointed drone police think. I normally fly out in the countryside over open farming fields when I do go out past VLOS. The worst property damage I might cause if my drone goes down is to kill a stalk of corn.

Sent from my HTC 10 using PhantomPilots mobile app

 

[dirkclod]

 

[Bob D.]

You guys DO know that's its illegal to fly at night right?? You can only fly 1/2 hour before civil twilight (before sunrise) and 1/2 hour after civil twilight (after sunset). Just sayin'

 

[WilliamM]

You guys DO know that's its illegal to fly at night right?? You can only fly 1/2 hour before civil twilight (before sunrise) and 1/2 hour after civil twilight (after sunset). Just sayin'

I believe that's for commercial only, does not apply to hobbyist.

 

[Kai Mele]

Are these rules American? Or International? Or?
Where would I find the rules for Line of Sight flying and night flying in Canada?

 

[WilliamM]

Are these rules American? Or International? Or?
Where would I find the rules for Line of Sight flying and night flying in Canada?

The states comes under FAA rules, not sure about Canada. That's what most have been talking about in this thread.

 

[Mainshipper]

For some of us who have flown RC for 40+ years, line of sight would mean, in view, unobstructed. As a pilot/trainer on conventional RC, this means you can simply "see" the aircraft, speck or better. I recall one occasion where I showed up to the field and the novice's aircraft was better than a mile away. He begged me to try to get it back as it was way downwind. I took the controls, and even though just a speck, by the inputs I was able to determine orientation, and retrieved his plane. He had written it off. This tells you that it's all about experience and auto reactions. Fly, fly, fly some more!

As far as I know, RC planes don't have the ability to fly autonomously. I fly my P3P mostly on full auto routes and even lose the signal at times.

 

[Bistineau]

The common North American usage/understanding of the term 'line of sight' agrees with various dictionary definitions e.g. "A straight line along which an observer has unobstructed vision, such as a building that obstructs our line of sight", "An imaginary straight line along which an observer looks," "A line from an observer's eye to a distant point."
"Line of sight" is a direction, a line, not the view of an object.
Unless the aircraft is very close a pilot can best determine its exact position and heading by use of his app's map and fpv functions, or with the use of Litchi, its location determined by mapped waypoints and time of travel.
My usage/understanding of the line of sight rule means keeping an unobstructed view in the direction of the aircraft's position to observe for other aircraft or hazards in the area.


Sent from my iPad using PhantomPilots

 

[Bob D.]

5.7 VLOS Aircraft Operation. The remote PIC and person manipulating the controls must be able to see the small UA at all times during flight. Therefore, the small UA must be operated closely enough to the CS to ensure visibility requirements are met during small UA operations. This requirement also applies to the VO, if used during the aircraft operation. However, the person maintaining VLOS may have brief moments in which he or she is not looking directly at or cannot see the small UA, but still retains the capability to see the UA or quickly maneuver it back to VLOS. These moments can be for the safety of the operation (e.g., looking at the controller to see battery life remaining) or for operational necessity. For operational necessity, the remote PIC or person manipulating the controls may intentionally maneuver the UA so that he or she loses sight of it for brief periods of time. Should the remote PIC or person manipulating the controls lose VLOS of the small UA, he or she must regain VLOS as soon as practicable. For example, a remote PIC stationed on the ground utilizing a small UA to inspect a rooftop may lose sight of the aircraft for brief periods while inspecting the farthest point of the roof. As another example, a remote PIC conducting a search operation around a fire scene with a small UA may briefly lose sight of the aircraft while it is temporarily behind a dense column of smoke. However, it must be emphasized that even though the remote PIC may briefly lose sight of the small UA, he or she always has the see-and-avoid responsibilities set out in part 107, §§ 107.31 and 107.37. The circumstances of what would prevent a remote PIC from fulfilling those responsibilities will vary, depending on factors such as the type of UAS, the operational environment, and distance between the remote PIC and the UA. For this reason, there is no specific time interval that interruption of VLOS is permissible, as it would have the effect of potentially allowing a hazardous interruption or prohibiting a reasonable one. If VLOS cannot be regained, the remote PIC or person manipulating the controls should follow pre-determined procedures for a loss of VLOS. These procedures are determined by the capabilities of the sUAS and may include immediately landing the UA, entering hover mode, or returning to home sequence. Thus, the VLOS requirement would not prohibit actions such as scanning the airspace or briefly looking down at the small UA CS.

5.7.1 Unaided Vision. VLOS must be accomplished and maintained by unaided vision, except vision that is corrected by the use of eyeglasses (spectacles) or contact lenses. Vision aids, such as binoculars, may be used only momentarily to enhance situational awareness. For example, the remote PIC, person manipulating the controls, or VO may use vision aids to avoid flying over persons or conflicting with other aircraft. Similarly, first person view devices may be used during operations, but do not satisfy the VLOS requirement. While the rule does not set specific vision standards, the FAA recommends that remote PICs, persons manipulating the controls, and VOs maintain 20/20 distant vision acuity (corrected) and normal field of vision.