Lets talk battery life

[mrfun]

thanks to all...
I will mend my way on #6. one last question:
what do you do with dead phantom lipos ... are they landfill material, or is there somewhere that recycles them? does anyone refurbish these?

 

[silverstoned83]

thanks to all...
I will mend my way on #6. one last question:
what do you do with dead phantom lipos ... are they landfill material, or is there somewhere that recycles them? does anyone refurbish these?

I'm not aware of anyone that refurbishes these batteries, I doubt they exist. As for recycling, you can drop it in any battery recycle container, like the ones you'll find in the entrance area to Best Buy. Just make sure that you drain it as far as you can before you drop it in the recycle.

If it were any other LiPo, without the intelligent battery circuitry, I would drain it down with a 12v light bulb until the light turns off. Then I would cut the connector off and wire nut the positive and negative leads to each other, creating a short. The reason for doing this is so that there's no way for the LiPo to regain any amount of charge, it will stay at 0v. Now it's 100% safe to recycle.

 

[mconheady]

OK - I'm with you on the 8% - been reading that all over the place...20% is my new low end.
but
Break-in period? what break-in period....I must have missed that chapter completely!
What should I do for the first 10 cycles - land at 50% ?

As for heat - I can't avoid flying in the heat. Should I keep the batteries in a cooler or something to maintain the temperature around 75F before I have to fly in hot weather - would that help?

The "break in" period people preach here is a myth. No science to back it up. Nothing from DJI supporting it (and if you think they would be all over it if it increased the reliability and performance of their product). It's just like vehicle engine break in stuff. People do it, and propagate that false "science" because it sorta makes sense. But no fact or manufacturer backs it up. Only anecdotes.

 

[silverstoned83]

I don't need science to prove my experience.

DJI wants the user experience to require as little attention to detail as possible when it comes to the battery. The same can be said about laptop manufacturers. They say nothing about how to maximize the life expectancy of the battery, yet people continue to ruin them prematurely. While laptop batteries do not require a break in, they also drain the battery very slowly. RC batteries require a break in due to the way the cells behave at high discharge rates when they are new. No science is needed to prove this, just watch the cell voltage imbalance under load when the LiPo is new and how it improves with a proper break in.

Sure, you can ignore the break in process and it will still fly just fine.... It's in the long run scheme of things where you will suffer the consequences. The cell voltage imbalance under load can be magnified over time to the point of over discharging one or more cells. This will eventually degrade the cell with the lowest voltage by continuing to drain it down to 20%, which leaves no cushion to avoid an over discharged cell.

 

[N017RW]

It likely stems from the oft noticed capacity increase (as measured by higher quality chargers) after a few cycles.
It's been published that this is the result of a type of shelf-life 'preservative' being dissipated during the first few uses.

 

[silverstoned83]

It likely stems from the oft noticed capacity increase (as measured by higher quality chargers) after a few cycles.
It's been published that this is the result of a type of shelf-life 'preservative' being dissipated during the first few uses.

Exactly. I have a PowerLab 6 charger, one of the best chargers in the RC market, and this is the only reason why I feel confident in my understanding on how to care for LiPo's. I've read about this preservative from multiple LiPo manufactures and it is the reason why the cells behave the way they do when new. It takes 5-10 cycles to burn through this preservative in order to 'wake up' the cells. I have verified this by watching the cell internal resistance drop significantly after completing a thorough break in. This equates to less heat, less voltage drop, less cell imbalance under load, etc....

 

[N017RW]

Yes, but this preservative dissipation occurs anyways and saying you must discharge in this manner for 'X' times is folklore.

This how these myths originate and perpetuate.

Why not link to an article by a manufacturer or similar authority where this is specified, i.e. not other bloggers who say the same thing.

 

[silverstoned83]

Yes, but this preservative dissipation occurs anyways and saying you must discharge in this manner for 'X' times is folklore.

This how these myths originate and perpetuate.

Why not link to an article by a manufacturer or similar authority where this is specified, i.e. not other bloggers who say the same thing.

The break in process is proven and practiced among all of the experienced RC pilots I have met. It was thought up as a solution for a problem, which it solved. If you think it's nothing more than a myth, why not explain the reason why many experience premature LiPo degradation and significantly short cycle life. If the LiPo was defective, it would fail within the first 10-20 cycles. So why then are people reporting puffed packs and decrease capacity with hardly any cycles on them?

 

[N017RW]

Link???

 

[silverstoned83]

http://helifreak.com/showthread.php?t=336421

https://sites.google.com/site/tjinguytech/charging-how-tos/lipo-terminology

 

[N017RW]

I'm aware of this site.
Another passionate blogger like yourself.

"Loosens up the pack" = Techno-babble



Any manufacturers?

 

[silverstoned83]

Again, you're quick to shoot down a plausible theory simply because the manufacturer didn't say anything about it. Do you actually think people are excited about babying these things??? No. So why would LiPo manufacturers say anything about their battery needing a break in, while others mention nothing of it. Sounds like a sure way to shoot yourself in the foot from a business stand point.

It would be nice if you yourself included some evidence to support your opinion. Simply shooting down someone's advice that's based on years of RC users' experiences says a lot about how credible your opinion is.

 

[mrfun]

give me 6 months and I can settle this argument...it sounds reasonable, and it can't hurt to try.

 

[N017RW]

There's no substance to a sample size of one!

 

[silverstoned83]

There's no substance to a sample size of one!

It takes only one to lead.

You obviously are ignoring the bigger picture. It's not like I'm the only one that's caring for their LiPo's to this degree. I've provided you with links to credible and proven sources, as you requested, yet you continue to disagree without explaining with evidence to prove it, as I have. All you care about is that I'm the only one that speaks up on this thread regarding the issue... Good luck getting any issue resolved with that mindset.

 

[spankybear]

While it's still too early to know for sure, having it drop by 2% after only 15 cycles isn't a good sign. I have one with 15 cycles on it and it's still at 100%.

Have far did you drain them during the first 5-10 cycles?

It's common practice to take a LiPo out of service once it has lost 20% of its capacity.

I was careful with the first 8-10 or so discharges. I am a new flyer and landed the craft with 20-30%... After that I got more comfortable with the quad and took it a little further....

I always wait until it's cool before I recharge (at least 30 mins... more like an hour plus) I didn't leave if fully charged for more than 24 hours. When storing it i had it between 30-60%

I have just received my 3rd battery and have yet use it. I will take more care with the break in to see if this helps at all

 

[mconheady]

Again, you're quick to shoot down a plausible theory simply because the manufacturer didn't say anything about it. Do you actually think people are excited about babying these things??? No. So why would LiPo manufacturers say anything about their battery needing a break in, while others mention nothing of it. Sounds like a sure way to shoot yourself in the foot from a business stand point.

It would be nice if you yourself included some evidence to support your opinion. Simply shooting down someone's advice that's based on years of RC users' experiences says a lot about how credible your opinion is.

Let show some proof. That burden is on the made-up non-existant science. Proof right now is that no manufacturer making and selling these batteries recommends this fantasy break-in period. Just like with car engines. Not a single manual, not a single lawsuit to a manufacturer, not even a manufacturer's car service manual instructs users about engine break in. People made the **** up. Some unproven gut feeling anecdotal evidence later, some unqualified morons on youtube and messageboards later, and it's a fact.

Let's see some solid evidence. Let's see DJI put something in writing on this break in period. Why wouldn't they if it has SUCH an impact. It's not real. Sorry for every schoolyard story you or anyone in the RC community has, there are just as many people that despite 100 years of science showing otherwise, still think common colds are in fact caused by being out in cold weather. Doesn't make that **** true.

 

[mconheady]

Again, you're quick to shoot down a plausible theory simply because the manufacturer didn't say anything about it. Do you actually think people are excited about babying these things??? No. So why would LiPo manufacturers say anything about their battery needing a break in, while others mention nothing of it. Sounds like a sure way to shoot yourself in the foot from a business stand point.

It would be nice if you yourself included some evidence to support your opinion. Simply shooting down someone's advice that's based on years of RC users' experiences says a lot about how credible your opinion is.

I'm saying it's not true because that's not how LiPo batteries work + it's not true because it's made up. Let's see the source here. From a manufacturer. Preferably DJI (but good luck finding that from any reputable LiPo maker).
You'll only find it those break in tips from hobbyists and people that believe every youtube video, gut feeling and BS. It's simply not true.

 

[mconheady]

The break in process is proven and practiced among all of the experienced RC pilots I have met. It was thought up as a solution for a problem, which it solved. If you think it's nothing more than a myth, why not explain the reason why many experience premature LiPo degradation and significantly short cycle life. If the LiPo was defective, it would fail within the first 10-20 cycles. So why then are people reporting puffed packs and decrease capacity with hardly any cycles on them?

That's great a bunch of hobbyists do that. What do the engineers that actually know how these batteries are designed and work do? Because that's all that matters. sorry. Anecdotes are not evidence.

 

[silverstoned83]

mconheady, our opinions are on opposite sides of the spectrum. I have no interest in changing my beliefs because I've already proven them to myself, using chargers that display information that is rarely seen, and you along with every other person that hates the thought of a break in process has yet to show me any reason why it doesn't solve the problem of premature failure on a battery that clearly worked for the first 30 cycles. Can you do that or not?

I've had several batteries only last 20-30 cycles. Then I did some research, bought some new batteries, and tested it out myself. After the new batteries reached two or three times as many cycles, it became clear to me that the break in process is more than a myth. I guess you need to do the same in order to prove it to yourself, you won't seem to trust anyone who has already done it for you after all.