is this legit loophole for hobbyist offering aerials??

[GadgetGuy]

Not mistaken. Hobby flyer = can't sell.
Hobby flyer gathers footage without intent to sell, later gets 107, this guy can sell footage. No commercial (civil) rating / cert, no sales.
That is how the law works, anything else is just an excuse or bad reasoning.

You need to read and carefully digest the substance of post #45 above. No need to repeat it again here, but I'll Cliff Notes it for you...No 107 necessary for the hobbyist to sell anything shot as a hobbyist, as long as there was no business intent at the time of the flights. Period.

 

[GadgetGuy]

She can share as a hobbyist with anyone she wants. If they use it for promotion, business etc. they put her in the awkward position of a possible fine even though it's not her fault.
Best advice when sharing is to make them sign a non commercial use contract so that they get the fine not her.
At least then she can show that the content was intended ONLY for hobby purposes and NOT for commercial use.
I think we can definitely agree on that.

It is completely legal for a hobbyist to sell images shot as a hobbyist, as long as that was not the intent when the images were taken.

 

[dangerd]

You need to read and carefully digest the substance of post #45 above. No need to repeat it again here, but I'll Cliff Notes it for you...No 107 necessary for the hobbyist to sell anything shot as a hobbyist, as long as there was no business intent at the time of the flights. Period.

Ok just to be clear if you SELL something you ARE doing BUSINESS. Is ther something unclear to you about what the meaning of the word business is?

busi·ness
ˈbiznəs/
noun

1. 1.
   a person's regular occupation, profession, or trade.
   "she had to do a lot of smiling in her business"
   synonyms: work, line of work, occupation, profession, career, employment, job, position; More
   
   
2. 2.
   the practice of making one's living by engaging in commerce.
   "the world of business"
   synonyms: trade, trading, commerce, dealing, traffic, merchandising; More
   
   It literally means that you take money from someone in trade. That is the EXACT thing you need a 107 cert for.

 

[Meta4]

Ok just to be clear if you SELL something you ARE doing BUSINESS. Is ther something unclear to you about what the meaning of the word business is?
1.a person's regular occupation, profession, or trade.
2.the practice of making one's living by engaging in commerce.

You need to check those dictionary definitions again.
They don't say that anyone selling anything is in business.
It seems that you are the one that isn't clear about what the meaning of the word business is.
There are plenty of situations where you can sell something without it being a business.

 

[Ghostdancer76]

Can you do both? Can you fly under 107 for profit but once you have the 107 certification, are you never allowed to fly under hobbyist...even on your own time? Say I want to take video of us boating on the weekend...or whatever...am I bound to always fly under 107 rules even when for my own recreation?

As long as you can prove it’s a hobby flight with no intentions to make money then you can fly as a recreational pilot and still have your 107 remote pilot Certificate. This source is from a FAA investigator that was on the drone U podcast. [emoji1365]

 

[GadgetGuy]

Ok just to be clear if you SELL something you ARE doing BUSINESS. Is ther something unclear to you about what the meaning of the word business is?

busi·ness
ˈbiznəs/
noun

1. 1.
   a person's regular occupation, profession, or trade.
   "she had to do a lot of smiling in her business"
   synonyms: work, line of work, occupation, profession, career, employment, job, position; More
   
   
2. 2.
   the practice of making one's living by engaging in commerce.
   "the world of business"
   synonyms: trade, trading, commerce, dealing, traffic, merchandising; More
   
   It literally means that you take money from someone in trade. That is the EXACT thing you need a 107 cert for.

Apparently, you don't wish to accept the FAA's determination that it is the intent at the time of the flight that controls. If there was no business intent at the time, and the images were shot while flying as a hobbyist without a 107, you may legally sell them at any later time, to anyone you wish, for any amount of money, without a 107. That's it.

 

[dangerd]

So then why would I get a 107, I don't intend to ever sell anything I shoot, I was just having fun shooting on vacation with NO intent to sell then I came home said to myself " I think I will just put it on line, oh hey that stock house will host the file for free! I love my hobby! Then some people come along and buy it!
Oh what can one do? I NEVER had ANY intent when I SHOT the footage, it was fun!
That is total B.S. man!
Also if you DO NOT have a commercial license you CANNOT sell. Period. If you do then you are in violation of the law and are making excuses, if the hobby flier later gets a 107 there is a Grey area wherein they could conceivably sell the footage taken as a hobbyist because they now have a 107.Unless they live outside of the USA then you need nothing unless your government requires it.
Personally I think anyone should be able to sell anything, this is a capitalist country after all, but my opinion means squat to the law.
You can't just NOT INTEND to sell your footage over end over and call yourself a hobbyist. That is just stupidity.

 

[Meta4]

Also if you DO NOT have a commercial license you CANNOT sell. Period. If you do then you are in violation of the law and are making excuses,

You can't just NOT INTEND to sell your footage over end over and call yourself a hobbyist. That is just stupidity.

The FAA aren't the photo selling police and couldn't care less about your photos or who you sell them to.
The FAA are very concerned with matters relating to flight safety and commercial flying.
The potential offence they might care about is unlicensed commercial flying.
If you were lucky enough to get some special images during a legal recreational flight in the past, the act of selling those images now does not retrospectively make the past flight illegal.

 

[68charger440]

Try this hypothetical on for size.
I take a video with my Phantom and post it to an online photo sharing site who's terms of service gives them the right to reproduce, or use my video any way they see fit. They then sell it to DJI because DJI wants to use it as a promo for DJI products. DJI then sends me a free Mavic as a thank you for my beautiful work which helps them sell more DJI products. I didn't ask for the Mavic, it just showed up at my door with a thank you note from DJI.
If I keep the Mavic am I then subject to 107 since I profited from the video?

 

[Ghostdancer76]

Try this one on for size.
I take a video with my Phantom and post it to an online photo sharing site who's terms of service gives them the right to reproduce, or use my video any way they see fit. They then sell it to DJI because DJI wants to use it as a promo for DJI products. DJI then sends me a free Mavic as a thank you for my beautiful work which helps them sell more DJI products. I didn't ask for the Mavic, it just showed up at my door with a thank you note from DJI.
If I keep the Mavic am I then subject to 107 since I profited from the video?

I’m sure the FAA wouldn’t know what to say except that you should get a lawyer [emoji23] because they probably don’t know the legal answer to that kind of situation

 

[Meta4]

Try this hypothetical on for size.
I take a video with my Phantom and post it to an online photo sharing site who's terms of service gives them the right to reproduce, or use my video any way they see fit. They then sell it to DJI because DJI wants to use it as a promo for DJI products. DJI then sends me a free Mavic as a thank you for my beautiful work which helps them sell more DJI products. I didn't ask for the Mavic, it just showed up at my door with a thank you note from DJI.
If I keep the Mavic am I then subject to 107 since I profited from the video?

DJI aren't going to buy your work from someone else and then also pay you.
These contrived scenarios remind me of this:
http://download.lardlad.com/sounds/season1/telltale3.mp3

 

[dangerd]

Yes you are 68charger440, and DJI is violating the law in the USA. You have the choice to either except or send back the Mavic.
And you guys wonder why there are more and more laws to put down drones. It's because people just keep making excuses for the laws we already have.
One day there will be NO hobby flight because of this kind of attitude amongst hobbyist, and the stupid government will make everyone get a license like driving a car.
I can fly as far as I want out of sight, high as I want, over crowds of people because I am a hobbyist! Then I will sell all my footage, because I didn't INTEND to when I flew!
Man the stupid never stops amazing me.
Do whatever you want, it's a free country, I will do things the right and legal way. Far be it for me to tell other what to do, I will only say what I think.
Do as you please.

 

[68charger440]

DJI aren't going to buy your work from someone else and then also pay you.
These concocted scenarios remind me of this:
http://download.lardlad.com/sounds/season1/telltale3.mp3

Ok, drop the photo sharing site selling it, and DJI simply sends me the Mavic with the note. That is very plausable!
By the way that is quite the trick mind reading DJI like you did.

 

[sar104]

So then why would I get a 107, I don't intend to ever sell anything I shoot, I was just having fun shooting on vacation with NO intent to sell then I came home said to myself " I think I will just put it on line, oh hey that stock house will host the file for free! I love my hobby! Then some people come along and buy it!
Oh what can one do? I NEVER had ANY intent when I SHOT the footage, it was fun!
That is total B.S. man!
Also if you DO NOT have a commercial license you CANNOT sell. Period. If you do then you are in violation of the law and are making excuses, if the hobby flier later gets a 107 there is a Grey area wherein they could conceivably sell the footage taken as a hobbyist because they now have a 107.Unless they live outside of the USA then you need nothing unless your government requires it.
Personally I think anyone should be able to sell anything, this is a capitalist country after all, but my opinion means squat to the law.
You can't just NOT INTEND to sell your footage over end over and call yourself a hobbyist. That is just stupidity.

You are incorrect, and it's trivially simple to verify that you are incorrect. This subject has been beaten to death and the FAA, itself, has repeatedly stated that it is the intent at the time of the flight that matters. Have you considered actually reading the applicable laws?

 

[GadgetGuy]

You are incorrect, and it's trivially simple to verify that you are incorrect. This subject has been beaten to death and the FAA, itself, has repeatedly stated that it is the intent at the time of the flight that matters. Have you considered actually reading the applicable laws?

Apparently he hasn't!
We're all stupid for knowing how to read!

 

[dangerd]

I have read the laws. I do have my 107 cert. the FAR/AIM Book is sitting here on my bookshelf. And yes I read it too.

Just out of curiosity sar104 and GadgetGuy, do either of you guys have a 107 cert?

I spent a lot of time throwing the zagi glider off a hilltop just for fun, that was hobby flight. Now I'm flying for $$$.

I'm sure the subject has been beaten to death here online, but an aviation lawyer would tell you different. Hope you never need one.

Have fun flying!

 

[GadgetGuy]

I have read the laws. I do have my 107 cert. the FAR/AIM Book is sitting here on my bookshelf. And yes I read it too.

Just out of curiosity sar104 and GadgetGuy, do either of you guys have a 107 cert?

I spent a lot of time throwing the zagi glider off a hilltop just for fun, that was hobby flight. Now I'm flying for $$$.

I'm sure the subject has been beaten to death here online, but an aviation lawyer would tell you different. Hope you never need one.

Have fun flying!

Clearly, having your 107 doesn't make you right, nor an expert. It's the FAA that matters, and, as we keep telling you, they have repeatedly stated that it is the intent of the pilot at the time of the flight that matters. As long as the intent was recreational at the time of flight, you can do whatever you want with the images later, without ever having had or ever getting a 107 cert. Finding a buyer for the images is the real challenge!

 

[Meta4]

If the photos taken by an un certified UAV Pilot then you can incur a fine. A prominent Real Estate Photographers web page published an article on this issue. The fine for whoever publishes the photos can be as high as 11,500.00$ and 1,500.00 for the uncertified pilot. I that person is both the pilot and publisher then a total of 13,000.00$.

That might have been reported on a website but it sounds highly dubious. Do you have a link?
They might have an interest in unlicensed commercial flying but the FAA aren't photo police and can't prosecute someone for buying or publishing a photo.
There's no law against publishing photos taken by unlicensed flyers.
The world hasn't gone that stupid so far.

 

[dangerd]

Clearly, having your 107 doesn't make you right, nor an expert. It's the FAA that matters, and, as we keep telling you, they have repeatedly stated that it is the intent of the pilot at the time of the flight that matters. As long as the intent was recreational at the time of flight, you can do whatever you want with the images later, without ever having had or ever getting a 107 cert. Finding a buyer for the images is the real challenge!

Well GadgetGuy that doesn't awnser my question, and not to encourage you if you don't have a 107 cert. but selling the images is the easiest part as almost ANY stock footage house will buy your images without any questions about if you are a 107 pilot or not. They don't seem to care at all, they just want the money.
I don't claim to be an expert because I hold a 107 cert. but I am well educated on the subject. I had a debate with the LAPD who tried to tell me where I could fly, which ended with a commanding officer calling my home to let me know I had educated one of his officers at the air unit and to have a nice flight so I think I must have some idea how the laws work.
Sometimes I am wrong, it happens, but not this time!

This link is for Meta4 (about the fines)
The FAA Gave Us a List of Every Drone Pilot Who Has Ever Been Fined.

Always good to debate, you guys are certainly fun!
Spend some time studying instead of interpreting it may be enlightening.

 

[Meta4]

Selling the images is the easiest part as almost ANY stock footage house will buy your images without any questions

Please tell me which stock agencies will buy images.
I'm only aware of agencies that will accept your images but no money changes hands until a buyer wants to pay for them.

This link is for Meta4 (about the fines)

I'm well aware of that article and first saw it back when it was published over a year ago.
I'm not sure what you think I should get from it.
A small number of people have been fined by the FAA - but how many for selling photos?
Here's a summary for you.

I think the most enlightening point is how few have been fined for selling photos.