BREAKING!!! U.S. Will Require Drones to Be Registered

[Brian1259]

Specifically what are we doing to provide constructive input if possible. The manufacturers of these muti-rotors/UAS systems should already be lobbying for fair rules. OR DO THEY? HELP DJI?

My concerns follow:

• Are they likely to mandate liability insurance and at what cost?
• Will there be an application fee?
• Will a costly safety course be required?
• Will I need to register each year and repay fees?
• Will I need to install any special tracking/ID equipment on my existing multi-rotor?
• Will they be adding any restrictions that affect my video/photo hobby (no flying in national parks, only at sanctioned fields....in other words, removing the very reason for enjoying the hobby of filming natural beauty etc.)

Can we be proactive and think up some constructive advice that will avoid the usual government response of (let no crisis go to waste). I don't want to see this very enjoyable hobby become a nightmare of regulation.

I am all about being responsible but we need to figure out an inexpensive way to punish the 1% while not punishing the other 99% of responsible hobbyist. Thoughts?

 

[SteveMann]

Please explain to me the mechanism Washington state has set up to collect use tax on items purchased out of state?

Please explain how and to whom I report these purchases?

Please explain how these transactions are monitored by my state?

Same document, next paragraph:

How do I pay use tax?

Use tax is determined on the value of the goods when first used in Washington. Generally, this is the purchase price. However, a depreciated value may be determined if the goods are used outside the state for a lengthy time before use in Washington by the same person. As of June 1, 2002, use tax is also due on any freight, delivery, or shipping charges paid to the seller.

The use tax rate is the same as your sales tax rate. To determine the correct rate for your area, check out our Local Sales Tax Rates or try our Tax Rate Lookup Tool. Use tax, unlike sales tax, is due at the rate where you first use the article, not where the sale takes place.

To pay use tax

• Online: Try our free, secure online application. It guides you through simple filing steps and gives you several payment options.
• By paper: Complete and mail a Consumer Use Tax Return. (pdf)

Note: Businesses are encouraged to report use tax for business-related purchases on their next excise tax return.​

On your last question, I have answered it many times in various forms. The state will not spend ten dollars to collect one. The cost of monitoring out of state purchases would make the monitoring and collection of use taxes on most out of state purchases completely fruitless. the use tax is still due even if the state doesn't actively pursue it. Because aircraft registration data is public information, the collection of the use tax is a viable revenue source for the state.

Now, back ON TOPIC.
When you buy a drone, a sales tax or use tax is due to your state if your state has a sales tax.
An aircraft registration simply triggers a tax assessment. Some states charge a property tax as well as a sales/use tax.

 

[GoodnNuff]

Now, back ON TOPIC.
When you buy a drone, a sales tax or use tax is due to your state if your state has a sales tax.
An aircraft registration simply triggers a tax assessment. Some states charge a property tax as well as a sales/use tax.

All speculation. The only people who have said there will be a tax associated with registration is ... nobody. And you are simply repeating everything I said in my first two posts.

 

[SteveMann]

Are they likely to mandate liability insurance and at what cost?

Insurance is a state matter. The federal government cannot mandate insurance. Some states do mandate aircraft insurance and aircraft registration may trigger a state insurance requirement. Research your states' laws on aircraft insurance.

• Will there be an application fee?
• Will a costly safety course be required?
• Will I need to register each year and repay fees?

Currently the fee for registering an aircraft is $5. The registration expires in three years when the aircraft owner re-registers it for another $5 fee.

Secretary Foxx said:

“Registering unmanned aircraft will help build a culture of accountability and responsibility, especially with new users who have no experience operating in the U.S. aviation system,” Foxx said. “It will help protect public safety in the air and on the ground.”​

Mr. Foxx is correct that by connecting your name to the aircraft through a registry, some people may be more responsible. But, in my opinion, not nearly enough to even move the needle of drone sightings, which is the source of the hysteria to do something. I would much rather the Task Force advise the FAA that the "Drone Sightings" needs better vetting before using it as a reason for emergency rule making.

I doubt that the Task Force will go so far as to require any form of testing or safety course because it would be impossible to put the process in place to define what a safety course would have to cover.

For those of us who are old enough- the FCC brought a debacle on itself by trying to regulate CB radios in the 1970's. Licensing and identification rules had been in place for decades and commercial and amateur radio operators conformed and maintained a generally good relationship with the FCC. Then came the flood of new, inexperienced and unlicensed users in the new Citizens Radio Service (CB). Millions of them. After a few frustrating years of attempting to enforce the licensing and ID rules on the new users, the FCC finally had to throw up their hands with a collective "F### It", and they turned their back on them. (Technically, the rules are still there, but the FCC redirected their priorities). Licensing a million personal drones by the FAA may follow the FCC's CB enforcement fiasco.

• Will I need to install any special tracking/ID equipment on my existing multi-rotor?

• Will they be adding any restrictions that affect my video/photo hobby (no flying in national parks, only at sanctioned fields....in other words, removing the very reason for enjoying the hobby of filming natural beauty etc.)

The ALPA (Airline Pilots Association) argues in every comment to Section 333 exemption petitions that all UAS must carry ADSB equipment. But the task force is only charged with formulating a process for registration.

the FAA has been quite generous with permitting flight in most areas of the country. There are few rules in the form of TFRs (Temporary Flight Restrictions) which affect all aircraft. Property owners or managers, like the NPS, may regulate where aircraft may be operated on their property, but only the FAA may regulate where they may fly. An "Operation" is FAA-speak for takeoff or landing.

I'll repeat for emphasis - Only the FAA may regulate flight or create a no-fly zone.

 

[Pulsar747n]

I guess there are a few areas of concern that we should be aware and not just make a blank statement of "It is just a small registration problem and it only costs $5.00"

1. Does the registration stops there or does it have more implication (ie: taxes & fees).
2. I am a big supporter of the AMA and have flown RC Helicopters for many years but, are they really representing me now as a drone pilot or are they trying protecting their member base. Their original comments:

"AMA believes that a threshold must be identified that will determine which platforms, what aircraft with what capabilities, will require registration and which will not.
AMA believes that traditional model aircraft, as well as the “toy-type” drones with minimal capability would fall below the threshold and not be subject to the registration process."

do not take the FAA definition of a UAV, they may be trying to further define drones vs RC Aircraft. They may also be feeling that a 50 pound 3/4 scale carrying 1/2 gallon of nitro fuel is more their thing, than the little 3 pound drone I have. I really hope that we could persuade the AMA to fight the original definition of our drones and to do away with any type of registration. (by the way I love 3/4 scale!)

3. The AMA has already lobbied the FAA to adopt certain guidelines. If you read the FAA AC
No. 91-57A paragraph C-2 it says:

"(2) The aircraft operates in accordance with a community-based set of safety guidelines and within the programming of a nationwide community-based organization (CBO)"

My community has a flying field about 20 miles away. They charge a hefty membership fee and require you to be an AMA member. What if I don't want to pay to be a member, or fly my drone at only AMA sanctioned fields?

Anyway, I apologize about expressing my frustrations on this issue to this forum.

 

[SteveMann]

Though I imagine this rule you mention was not front page national headline news at the time.

Yes, it was.
In February the FAA published a notice of proposed rulemaking (NPRM) entitled: "Operation and Certification of Small Unmanned Aircraft Systems". It was headline news for weeks, and is frequently referred to in most discussions of drones in the media.

The petition modifies 14 CFR Parts 21, 43, 45, 47, 61, 91, 101, and 183 to accommodate and define Small UAS aircraft, and it creates Part 107 to regulate the commercial operation of small UAS aircraft. It will make the Section 333 exemptions mostly obsolete and it creates an new category of Airman's Certificate for Small UAS.

I am amazed that no one, especially the AMA has made any noise over the proposed changes to Part 101 'Definitions', but that should be in another thread.

The registration proposal is news because of its' sudden appearance. There are an estimated million personal drones in the wild today and hundreds of thousands of hours of flight experience of these aircraft, and there is not one verified incident of a personal drone contacting a manned aircraft. Not one. Yet the FAA seems intent on issuing an SFAR ( FAA Special Federal Aviation Regulation) because of some imagined ("Minority Report") emergency. For something that has never happened.

What emergency?

 

[SteveMann]

Now, back ON TOPIC.
When you buy a drone, a sales tax or use tax is due to your state if your state has a sales tax.
An aircraft registration simply triggers a tax assessment. Some states charge a property tax as well as a sales/use tax.

All speculation. The only people who have said there will be a tax associated with registration is ... nobody. And you are simply repeating everything I said in my first two posts.

Speculation, yes. How it works depends on what state you're in. But as a couple of Section 333 holders have posted, they did receive a state tax assessment for their newly registered aircraft. I am just telling you what taxing mechanism is already in place that gets triggered by an aircraft registration.

Nobody did say there was a tax associated with registration, but the question was asked.

 

[SteveMann]

The state only pursues use taxes on big ticket items. If I buy a Dyson vacuum in Portland, the state is not going to bill me for a use tax....

It does not mean the tax is not due - only that it's not worth the state's efforts to collect it. I was quoting your state laws.

 

[SteveMann]

I mention Luxury tax (which many states have)

I can't find any.

 

[GoodnNuff]

I guess there are a few areas of concern that we should be aware and not just make a blank statement of "It is just a small registration problem and it only costs $5.00"

1. Does the registration stops there or does it have more implication (ie: taxes & fees).
2. I am a big supporter of the AMA and have flown RC Helicopters for many years but, are they really representing me now as a drone pilot or are they trying protecting their member base. Their original comments:

"AMA believes that a threshold must be identified that will determine which platforms, what aircraft with what capabilities, will require registration and which will not.
AMA believes that traditional model aircraft, as well as the “toy-type” drones with minimal capability would fall below the threshold and not be subject to the registration process."

do not take the FAA definition of a UAV, they may be trying to further define drones vs RC Aircraft. They may also be feeling that a 50 pound 3/4 scale carrying 1/2 gallon of nitro fuel is more their thing, than the little 3 pound drone I have. I really hope that we could persuade the AMA to fight the original definition of our drones and to do away with any type of registration. (by the way I love 3/4 scale!)

3. The AMA has already lobbied the FAA to adopt certain guidelines. If you read the FAA AC
No. 91-57A paragraph C-2 it says:

"(2) The aircraft operates in accordance with a community-based set of safety guidelines and within the programming of a nationwide community-based organization (CBO)"

My community has a flying field about 20 miles away. They charge a hefty membership fee and require you to be an AMA member. What if I don't want to pay to be a member, or fly my drone at only AMA sanctioned fields?

Anyway, I apologize about expressing my frustrations on this issue to this forum.

The AMA doesn't require you to fly at an AMA sanctioned field. The "community" that they refer to is the community of AMA pilots, not your club, or your 'hood.
Club dues are set by the individual club, not the AMA. I belong to a club that charges nothing, but loves donations, another one charges $35/yr and the third one charges $40. There are two other local clubs that charge $200 per year. Next year I plan on joining The Red Apple Flyers in Wenatchee, Washington. Though it is a 2.5 hour drive away, membership dues include the use of an RV park at the field, a delux 2 story club house, and one of the most beautifully maintained flying fields I've ever seen.

But nobody is forcing you to join the AMA or any flying club that is sanctioned by the AMA.

One of the first questions many pilots asked here was how will they determine what sort of drone gets registered and what doesn't - I think we are all concerned about that. I'm quite happy that the AMA will help address that. I can't think of a more appropriate organization with the experience and knowledge to help formulate that determination other than the AMA.

 

[SteveMann]

are they really representing me now as a drone pilot or are they trying protecting their member base.

The AMA is rightfully protecting their members first and hobby drone operators by association. But make no mistake, if they can throw the drone hobbyist under the bus to protect their traditional R/C members, they won't hesitate.

The biggest problem the AMA and the Task Force will face is defining a hobby drone that won't also describe a traditional R/C model aircraft. Aircraft make and model would not be feasible because the list changes daily. According to the data analyzed by the333.org, the first 1500 Section 333 exemptions reveals:
TOTAL Models: 3724
TOTAL Manufacturers: 162

 

[GoodnNuff]

I can't find any.

SMH
You really are obsessed with arguing...

Try looking at the luxury tax on hotels and car rentals in our state.
Or the increased luxury tax some states charge on cars over $XXX.
Or google luxury tax...

Or, you could just let it go...
Since we are arguing what again? oh yeah...who can speculate the furthest..

 

[GoodnNuff]

The AMA is rightfully protecting their members first and hobby drone operators by association. But make no mistake, if they can throw the drone hobbyist under the bus to protect their traditional R/C members, they won't hesitate.

The biggest problem the AMA and the Task Force will face is defining a hobby drone that won't also describe a traditional R/C model aircraft.

That is your opinion.
My opinion is the AMA sees a whole new herd of cash cows in drone pilots, and will do anything but throw them under the bus. We are the AMA's future. They realize this.
Your bias against the AMA has never changed Steve, not since the day you showed up at the field and didn't know what a flight line was (you told me the story yourself).

 

[SteveMann]

That is your opinion.
My opinion is the AMA sees a whole new herd of cash cows in drone pilots, and will do anything but throw them under the bus. We are the AMA's future. They realize this.
Your bias against the AMA has never changed Steve, not since the day you showed up at the field and didn't know what a flight line was (you told me the story yourself).

I guess you missed my many posts where I recommended that hobby flyers should be members of the AMA.
My story, as I recall, was that the flight line was not marked and no one on the field knew where it was.

What I did say was that the AMA will rightfully represent their members who are overwhelmingly traditional R/C flyers. In fact, in my comment to the Task Force I am recommending that aircraft operating from flying club fields should be exempt due to their historical cooperation with the FAA and almost complete absence of issues between model aircraft from these sanctioned fields and manned aircraft. This would provide a buy and fly opportunity without the onus of registration.

If the club field exemption were allowed, it would encourage more club growth and more opportunity for local clubs to be involved in training new users. Hardly an antagonistic bias on my part.

My bias is that the AMA has been slow to accept personal drones, slow to recognize the potential to their membership, slow to encourage club acceptance of personal drones and way behind the curve of the trend to regulate personal unmanned aircraft. They blew their opportunity to be the sUAS community leader for hobby drones. Yes, the AMA is "coming around", but I think it's kicking and screaming.

 

[GoodnNuff]

I guess you missed my many posts where I recommended that hobby flyers should be members of the AMA.
My story, as I recall, was that the flight line was not marked and no one on the field knew where it was.

What I did say was that the AMA will rightfully represent their members who are overwhelmingly traditional R/C flyers. In fact, in my comment to the Task Force I am recommending that aircraft operating from flying club fields should be exempt due to their historical cooperation with the FAA and almost complete absence of issues between model aircraft from these sanctioned fields and manned aircraft. This would provide a buy and fly opportunity without the onus of registration.

If the club field exemption were allowed, it would encourage more club growth and more opportunity for local clubs to be involved in training new users. Hardly an antagonistic bias on my part.

My bias is that the AMA has been slow to accept personal drones, slow to recognize the potential to their membership, slow to encourage club acceptance of personal drones and way behind the curve of the trend to regulate personal unmanned aircraft. They blew their opportunity to be the sUAS community leader for hobby drones. Yes, the AMA is "coming around", but I think it's kicking and screaming.

Thanks for sharing your opinion. That is all it is. Most of us who have been members of the AMA for some time do not share your assumptions since we have years of experience with the AMA.

It was the AMA who introduced me to drones over 4 years ago. Long before they were a household word. You joined last year, didn't you?

 

[SteveMann]

You really are obsessed with arguing...

I am just quoting your state's laws.
There are no luxury taxes in any state in the US that I can find.
Just because you want to call the Hotel Occupancy Tax a luxury tax doesn't make it so.

Of course, not living in Washington State and paying almost 10% sales tax is a kind of luxury.
But I pay $9,000 a year in property taxes, so it really evens out at the end of the year.

 

[SteveMann]

It was the AMA who introduced me to drones over 4 years ago. Long before they were a household word. You joined last year, didn't you?

Yes, I did. I just recently renewed as well. You rightly criticized me for taking the AMA to task without even being a member.

As a member I have had the pleasure to communicate at length with Archie Stafford, a training specialist with the Academy of Model Aeronautics about the potential of licensing sUAS operators. I have communicated with Rich Hansen, head of government relations about the problem of defining a drone that doesn't also define a traditional R/C aircraft.

You are flat out wrong to assume that I have a openly hostile attitude with the AMA. My only hostility is with their curmudgeon reluctance to embrace hobby drones.

 

[GoodnNuff]

I am just quoting your state's laws.
There are no luxury taxes in any state in the US that I can find.
Just because you want to call the Hotel Occupancy Tax a luxury tax doesn't make it so.

Of course, not living in Washington State and paying almost 10% sales tax is a kind of luxury.
But I pay $9,000 a year in property taxes, so it really evens out at the end of the year.

Our high taxes on hotels and car rentals in our state is commonly referred to as a "luxury tax" by the very politicians and lawmakers who debate it.

Don't you live in Connecticut? Your state charges 0.5% higher sales tax on certain "Luxury" items.

If you park your yacht for longer than 60 days in our state, you must pay a luxury tax of 10% of the value of the yacht, regardless of where it is registered or where it was purchased.

Increased excise taxes on cigarettes and booze is commonly referred to as either a luxury tax or a sin tax.

Go argue with a tax consultant or lawyer. I'm trying to eat lunch while you want to argue semantics...

 

[GoodnNuff]

Yes, I did. I just recently renewed as well. You rightly criticized me for taking the AMA to task without even being a member.

As a member I have had the pleasure to communicate at length with Archie Stafford, a training specialist with the Academy of Model Aeronautics about the potential of licensing sUAS operators. I have communicated with Rich Hansen, head of government relations about the problem of defining a drone that doesn't also define a traditional R/C aircraft.

You are flat out wrong to assume that I have a openly hostile attitude with the AMA. My only hostility is with their curmudgeon reluctance to embrace hobby drones.

Never said you were openly hostile. I said you have a "bias." I hope you were wearing your Superman cape when you made the leap from "bias" to "openly hostile."

Please don't put words in my mouth so that you can argue them.

 

[SteveMann]

Please don't put words in my mouth so that you can argue them.

That's the art of Troll Baiting.
But the horse is dead. Let's stay on topic.