Licensing your phantom videos and digital images

[Imabiggles]

I am curious about the statement defining a hobby flyer... what is your resource for that idea?
Does that come from the FAA, or the IRS, or perhaps a court case?
If I would no longer be a hobby flyer - then what am I ... a business?
I suspect the IRS would throw a fit if I wrote off the cost of my Phantom while not generating money.

FAA, which is the sole "regulator" of UAS and defines hobbyist. Of course if you cheat on taxes, the IRS cares but the FAA doesnt.

You would nor longer be under the exemptions for licensing provided to a hobby flyer.

If you take any payment, allow the use of the videos/flights for non-personal use (regardless of payment), they get uppity. UAS operators of YouTube channels that earn money were put on notice when UAS videos flown as a hobbyist were posted (as the video now generates money). UAS flying for "hobby or recreational purposes" excludes the need for license. Scientific, promotional (for or non-profit, doesnt matter) or commercial have been defined by the FAA to be outside of that definition and require licensing or exemptions to be done. Of course you can get licensed, but thats a rabbit hole you likely dont want to go down unless you plan to make a business out of it.

 

[fred_lefevre]

I am curious about the statement defining a hobby flyer... what is your resource for that idea?
Does that come from the FAA, or the IRS, or perhaps a court case?
If I would no longer be a hobby flyer - then what am I ... a business?
I suspect the IRS would throw a fit if I wrote off the cost of my Phantom while not generating money.

You don't have to generate money in the same year you write off the cost of the Phantom - nor do you have to generate enough money to cover the write off - but you do have to generate some money from the business within 3 years (disclaimer - I am not a tax expert but I have had a few small businesses - do not rely on what I am saying for tax advice).

 

[Morgas Resnak]

I am curious about the statement defining a hobby flyer... what is your resource for that idea?
Does that come from the FAA, or the IRS, or perhaps a court case?
If I would no longer be a hobby flyer - then what am I ... a business?
I suspect the IRS would throw a fit if I wrote off the cost of my Phantom while not generating money.

I agree, and I am trying to understand (new to this stuff), and let me use this example:

You marry my sister. You go on a honeymoon and send me a photo from Hanauma Bay with your snorkeling gear on. You send it to me, and I brighten up the ocean behind you and send it back, nothing else. It is your photo and I did nothing but enhance it. According to what this guy said if someone sends me a photo of the ocean they took with their Phantom, and I do the same, I am no longer a hobbyist?????? No money is made, but he says that both are in essence the same thing? As I mentioned before, anyone that puts a photo of their case, or filters and recommends them on this site is also in violation, aren't they? They are as he said, "No longer a hobby flyer." Really confused now.

 

[joe21]

I agree, and I am trying to understand (new to this stuff), and let me use this example:

You marry my sister. You go on a honeymoon and send me a photo from Hanauma Bay with your snorkeling gear on. You send it to me, and I brighten up the ocean behind you and send it back, nothing else. It is your photo and I did nothing but enhance it. According to what this guy said if someone sends me a photo of the ocean they took with their Phantom, and I do the same, I am no longer a hobbyist?????? No money is made, but he says that both are in essence the same thing? As I mentioned before, anyone that puts a photo of their case, or filters and recommends them on this site is also in violation, aren't they? They are as he said, "No longer a hobby flyer." Really confused now.

There is some confusion and you are mixing two concepts.

How you edit someone else's photo (taken with a drone or not) has no bearing on whether you are a commercial flyer or not.

You can edit a "hobbyist" photo/video.
You can edit a photo/video someone shot for a commercial magazine or movie.

If you do the edits for fun and don't accept payment (direct or indirect) you are a hobbyist (or just a nice guy) EDITOR.
If you accept payment for the edits, you are likely considered a commercial EDITOR.

Neither action changes your flying status. You are still a hobbyist flyer.

To exit the realm of being a hobbyist flyer, you must do something considered "commercial" with your FLYING.

You can be a hobbyist flyer and a commercial photographer.
You can be a commercial flyer and a hobbyist photographer.

To further confuse things, you can be both a commercial and hobbyist photographer. How you use a given photo/video will determine the nature of the given work.

For flying, you need a license to be a commercial flyer. So once you cross into that realm there are rules which will apply to all your flights.


And while I appreciate the generous offer, I am already married.

 

[joe21]

When I flew over the Basilica in Washington D.C. ...

When I saw the title of the video, I wondered how you were able to fly next to a penitentiary -then I found out it was deactivated in 1995.

Still have to wonder how you were able to fly near the Basilica in Washington. That's only a few miles from the White House. Isn't all of DC in an NFZ? How were you able to take off there?

 

[Morgas Resnak]

There is some confusion and you are mixing two concepts.

How you edit someone else's photo (taken with a drone or not) has no bearing on whether you are a commercial flyer or not.

You can edit a "hobbyist" photo/video.
You can edit a photo/video someone shot for a commercial magazine or movie.

If you do the edits for fun and don't accept payment (direct or indirect) you are a hobbyist (or just a nice guy) EDITOR.
If you accept payment for the edits, you are likely considered a commercial EDITOR.

Neither action changes your flying status. You are still a hobbyist flyer.

To exit the realm of being a hobbyist flyer, you must do something considered "commercial" with your FLYING.

You can be a hobbyist flyer and a commercial photographer.
You can be a commercial flyer and a hobbyist photographer.

To further confuse things, you can be both a commercial and hobbyist photographer. How you use a given photo/video will determine the nature of the given work.

For flying, you need a license to be a commercial flyer. So once you cross into that realm there are rules which will apply to all your flights.


And while I appreciate the generous offer, I am already married.

THANK YOU, and that is what I am thinking. The one gentleman said if I do anything, and even for scientific, it changed my status and that is what is confusing me. I get no money, just are learning to enhance with Photoshop and Lightroom, and did not how working images for others for free changed my status. Thank you again for clarifying, and my sister is 8, but good enough to use for my example, I guess...

 

[gcoxusa]

When I saw the title of the video, I wondered how you were able to fly next to a penitentiary -then I found out it was deactivated in 1995.

Still have to wonder how you were able to fly near the Basilica in Washington. That's only a few miles from the White House. Isn't all of DC in an NFZ? How were you able to take off there?

I agree with you Joe21... I think the DC area is NOW a NFZ. But I don't think it was when I did that project. I knew there was a chance that I might not get the Phantom off the ground - and I relied on the App to tell me about flight restrictions as it had done many times before. I did not encounter any problems. Of course, it was an early model P2V so maybe that had something to do with it. In any case, I would not try that these days.

As for the penitentiary - they actually give guided tours for small fee. That was how I got inside. I hope they don't use my video to generate money because then ... I might not be a hobby flyer.

 

[joe21]

I agree with you Joe21... I think the DC area is NOW a NFZ. But I don't think it was when I did that project. I knew there was a chance that I might not get the Phantom off the ground - and I relied on the App to tell me about flight restrictions as it had done many times before. I did not encounter any problems. Of course, it was an early model P2V so maybe that had something to do with it. In any case, I would not try that these days.

As for the penitentiary - they actually give guided tours for small fee. That was how I got inside. I hope they don't use my video to generate money because then ... I might not be a hobby flyer.

That makes sense if the video was done before NFZs were implemented.

I mainly ask since I have become very confused about NFZ in the DJI software. My DJI Go app shows red circles around airports (and stadiums). Those NFZ boundaries end at the airport runway. They don't extend beyond the airport property. I see no NFZ circle in the GO app for Washington, DC.

Yet there is a thread on the DJI forum where someone was able to fly his bird into an NFZ which extended a few miles out from an airport. Somehow he was able to fly in, but then the software realized this and force landed his Phantom into the ocean.

I have no intention of flying close to an airport, but cannot seem to get a clear answer on what constitutes a NFZ (from a software limitation standpoint) or what is supposed to happen when flying in/near an NFZ. If the zones shown in the app don't reflect the actual NFZs how are you supposed to avoid them?

 

[gcoxusa]

Yet there is a thread on the DJI forum where someone was able to fly his bird into an NFZ which extended a few miles out from an airport. Somehow he was able to fly in, but then the software realized this and force landed his Phantom into the ocean.

I have no intention of flying close to an airport, but cannot seem to get a clear answer on what constitutes a NFZ (from a software limitation standpoint) or what is supposed to happen when flying in/near an NFZ. If the zones shown in the app don't reflect the actual NFZs how are you supposed to avoid them?

I asked the same question of the FAA over a month ago and I will copy/quote the reply below for you:

Thank you for your inquiry. If you have a smartphone, you can download the B4UFly app from the Apple Store or the Google Play store for free. This app will show you any of the flight restrictions in your area. If you are unable to download this app, please contact your local Flight Standards District Office for more information.

Regards,
FAA UAS Integration Office
[email protected]
www.faa.gov/uas

 

[joe21]

I asked the same question of the FAA over a month ago and I will copy/quote the reply below for you:

I may not have phrased my question correctly.

The key problem is this... DJI GO has its own NFZs, which may or may not match up with the FAA ones. Looking at my Go app, the red circles stop at the edge of the runways (for major airports). That doesn't seem to match with what DJI states publicly. From what I have read there software is supposed to use some type of radius measured in miles.

Forget for a moment what you "should" do and what you are "supposed" to do. If the visual in the DJI app doesn't match the actual NFZ, you have no way of knowing when you are about to enter a _DJI_ NFZ. You unknowingly enter, but then the GO software kicks in and force lands your bird... on a road, on a building, in the ocean - you have no control.

I am not getting into what is or what should/should not be a NFZ. Merely questioning how DJI's software determines their NFZ, how they display them in the app, how they handle flight into these NFZs and how to avoid having your craft force landed because the software let you fly into one of their NFZs.

I don't want to take off with the DJI software leading me to believe I am NOT in an NFZ, only to have it force land me because I am (according to the DJI definition).

 

[AsiaFlyer]

I upload footage and photos to shutterstock for sale, I have also sold directly to the BBC

 

[Multicoptertec]

From what I have read of documentation from DJI, the software does not force land your quadcopter. You can't take off inside a NFZ. If you attempt to fly into one, you will not be able to. There are also height graduated zones where max flight altitudes are determined by proximity to the hard NFZ.

 

[joe21]

From what I have read of documentation from DJI, the software does not force land your quadcopter. You can't take off inside a NFZ. If you attempt to fly into one, you will not be able to. There are also height graduated zones where max flight altitudes are determined by proximity to the hard NFZ.

There's a current thread over in the DJI forum. Some debate over whether there were warnings or not. From what I could piece together from the DJI person and the drone owner, the bird took off, somehow ventured into a NFZ and was force landed into the water. DJI rep did acknowledge that the force land is correct behavior, but never explained how the flight was allowed to continue into the NFZ. This has me concerned. While the graduated height concept is an FAA thing, I have never seen it applied to a conversation about DJI software and its restrictions. As far as i can tell, any DJI NFZ is a wall from the ground up.

 

[Multicoptertec]

Correction. Just reread the doc. If you fly into the NFZ in ATTI mode, then switch to P GPS mode, the bird will auto land and stop it's motors.

 

[Multicoptertec]

This is the link.
Phantom 3 Professional- Flight Limits and No-Fly Zones - DJI Wiki

 

[Wolfiesden]

once you license the video - you are no longer a hobby flyer. Be careful with that.

I do not feel that is true. You, as a hobby photographer, can sell or license your works without being labeled "commercial".

The separation comes with intent. If you record or shoot photos or video for a hobby, there is nothing stopping somoene contacting you later to request use in a commercial production. This does not suddenly thust you into the commercial photographer category If, on the other hand, you shoot or record video with the intent to sell it, then that IS commercial in nature.

 

[MC_]

I do not feel that is true. You, as a hobby photographer, can sell or license your works without being labeled "commercial".

The separation comes with intent. If you record or shoot photos or video for a hobby, there is nothing stopping somoene contacting you later to request use in a commercial production. This does not suddenly thust you into the commercial photographer category If, on the other hand, you shoot or record video with the intent to sell it, then that IS commercial in nature.

Disagree. Your personal feelings are not likely to matter very much if the FAA asks why your hobby is suddenly generating revenue - cash, trade, future consideration, whatever - whether you initially planned to receive it or not. Sure, we can play word games all day but it doesn't take a rocket surgeon to distinguish between hobby and commercial use in the vast majority of cases. Is there some grey area? Sure. Do we get the final say on interpreting that grey area? No, that authority rests with the FAA. Note: I am not a lawyer or a rocket surgeon.

 

[Imabiggles]

I do not feel that is true. You, as a hobby photographer, can sell or license your works without being labeled "commercial".

The separation comes with intent. If you record or shoot photos or video for a hobby, there is nothing stopping somoene contacting you later to request use in a commercial production. This does not suddenly thust you into the commercial photographer category If, on the other hand, you shoot or record video with the intent to sell it, then that IS commercial in nature.

If your not commercial, it doesnt mean your a hobbyist (which is your point I think). If a teacher wants to fly to teach his kids about physics, he isnt a hobbyist and surely he isnt commercial. FAA gives and exemption (well, they dont, the law does) to hobbyist - push outside that range without a license or exemption at your peril. "separation comes with intent" - wish it were so, but intent isnt in the definition of hobbyist.

 

[Wolfiesden]

My point was that you CAN shoot video or photos as a hobbyist. Then later if someone contacts you to license it, you can. You, however, cant purposefully seek to sell/license it after the fact (which I think was your point) thus evading the commercial 333 issue.

Example, say you shot some footage of a kite festival you and your family attended and posted it up to youtube. Thats hobby. Later, (maybe the following year) a local newspaper asks if they can use a still from it for a news story and offers you some form of compensation (either free subscription or real money). You still shot it under hobbyist rules.

You can't however, shoot footage of that kite festival and then later call up the paper to try to sell it to them That would clearly be commercial and the FAA would likely expect you to have a commercial exemption.

Your example of the teacher, is likely also commercial. She is at WORK. Despite the fact she's dealing with kids, its her job and is getting paid to use/teach the flight concepts. However, this may fall into a gray area and the FAA may grant him/her a temporary exemption. But that would be up to the FAA.

 

[Imabiggles]

You still shot it under hobbyist rules.

Yep, and once you sell, license, alow the promotional use of the image - you are no longer a hobbyist. You cant toggle back and forth and play the hobbyist/license thing based upon intent. You can no longer say flights are purely for recreational use, since you licensed an image. You still seem to think you have to be paid for the image in some manner. If I take a video of a political rally and give it to them, I am not a hobbyist anymore as the video is not purely for recreation.

Lets say the teacher is not being paid - s/he is still not a hobbyist. Lets say I volunteer for taking videos of a forest preserve for a deer population study and receive zero compensation - I am not a hobbyist.

I guess we will see who is right with the rules are challenged in court.