New FAA Drone warnings

[kolobcoyote2]

Oh my gosh... Government is worried to death that one of our drones will crash into a National Monument - or even worst break break open the Glen Canyon Dam and cause a national disaster ! They tell us to keep 400' feet away ! Ok. This should also apply to all homo sapiens. Their all over the place, on top and under all our valuable historic monuments - and what if one of them carries a bomb ? They are the worst threat to National Monuments. Our Government has every thing screwed up again !

 

[Morningdewd]

I feel ya but I think its because of irresponsible droners that have ruined it for everyone.i lost a great wildlife spot that now has a big no drones sign .I asked the people why and they said that people flying kept buzzing campers and native wildlife and were a major disruption not in isolated instances but constantly.

 

[Rncotton]

More and more stupid people making it hard for the responsible ones.

 

[2nd2non]

I'm glad I already got my St Louis Arch images from the Mississippi River. Given Jefferson national expansion memorial is on both sides of the river, the 400ft kills the idea of flying down the river and capturing directly in front like this picture

 

[tcope]

FAA Expands No-Fly Zones

 

[daveisim]

They tell us to keep 400' feet away

It's surface level to 400' AGL inside the new restricted zones, not 400' away from the places.

I'm glad I already got my St Louis Arch images from the Mississippi River.

And you still should be able to get more pics like that. The zone there does not extend over the river.

Looking closer at the zone there, looks to be about 1,000' wide. The Gateway Arch is 630' high. The river is 330' away (less than 400') and the east side boundary of the zone is west of the river road / beach, i.e, outside of the restricted zone.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, for Part 107 one could launch real near the river, just outside the park & zone up to 399' lateral from the Arch, fly to 401' AGL and then maintain at least 401' AGL as one fly's to the Arch. Right up to the Observation windows at over 600' AGL. Hobby flyers can do as long as they maintain at least 401' AGL in the restricted zone, not having to deal with being inside the 400' lateral distance to the Arch.

The distances are via Google Maps. Here are the images. And I don't know if there are any other restrictions in the area. If there is I'm sure someone will chime in.

Google showing the Arch.

the FAA map of the restricted zone.

 

[2nd2non]

@daveisim The Jefferson national expansion memorial is wider than just the arch. It also extends across the river at the observation deck and associated memorial areas.
You can't go within 400ft lateral (aka sideways) of the memorial grounds. Also you can't go above 400ft AGL as hobbiest anyway. Part 107 would require an exception which the FAA says has to be coordinated.

The river is about 2000 feet wide at the arch, so you'd have to take off up or down stream of the arch and fly down the center of the river to be "legal".

Net- I can probably get that shot, but it would be difficult and I wouldn't be able to get a moving dolly shot again

 

[Kcgunesq]

@daveisim The Jefferson national expansion memorial is wider than just the arch. It also extends across the river at the observation deck and associated memorial areas.
You can't go within 400ft lateral (aka sideways) of the memorial grounds. Also you can't go above 400ft AGL as hobbiest anyway. Part 107 would require an exception which the FAA says has to be coordinated.

The river is about 2000 feet wide at the arch, so you'd have to take off up or down stream of the arch and fly down the center of the river to be "legal".

Net- I can probably get that shot, but it would be difficult and I wouldn't be able to get a moving dolly shot again

Lots of buildings near the arch that are hundreds of feet tall.

 

[daveisim]

ETA: Opps - Now I see a Class D airport 4 SM to the SE so any 107 flights are out unless you get an airspace authorization.

@daveisim The Jefferson national expansion memorial is wider than just the arch.

Yes, I don't disagree. The park bounties I see are just between I44, and Leonor K Sullivan Blvd (the road at the edge of the river), South of Washington Ave. and north of I64. the restricted zone is that area too.

It also extends across the river at the observation deck and associated memorial areas.

I an not seeing that. Can you show me where? Across river is the Malcolm Martin park. There isn't a restricted zone there. Nor over the river.

You can't go within 400ft lateral (aka sideways) of the memorial grounds.

Who said you can't? Where is that written?

Also you can't go above 400ft AGL as hobbiest anyway

The nearest airport I see is over 9 miles away, so there is no 400' hobby (AMA CBO rule) restriction.ETA

Part 107 would require an exception which the FAA says has to be coordinated.

Well, yes if you were outside the rules for 107 & the Restricted Zone. But again, not to be argumentative, I'm not seeing any. To reiterate:

1. The restricted zone is surface to 400 AGL - Be above that and you're good to go.
2. 107 limits you to 400' AGL but you can be over that and up to 400' above the nearest structure when within 400' of that structure. The Arch is that structure. The west river bank is outside the restricted zone and within 400' of the Arch. T/O & land from there or fly there and make your altitude 401' AGL before flying above the park.


Opps - Now I see a Class D airport 4 SM to the SE so any 107 flights are out unless you get an airspace authorization.

Not withstanding that, I believe all the previous comments I made are valid.

 

[daveisim]

Lots of buildings near the arch that are hundreds of feet tall.

Yeah, on the south side of Chestnut street is a park so that's a good place to start (if locally allowed) and keep within 400' lateral of the Hyatt (Google Maps shows 350' between the Hyatt and the Arch). Google Earth shows an extension of the park over I44 so no need to watch out flying over cars, just people.

 

[2nd2non]

I think you guys are mixing up regulations trying to justify why you can fly over the arch. I think you're only asking for trouble. I'd be curious how you would debate this with s police office that simply knows "no drones in the area". At best they tell you to leave, at worst....
But not going to argue it.

Technically it's within 5 miles of CPS airport (class D), so it really is a mute point for hobbiest.

In terms of across the river it's marked as part of Jefferson memorial expansion on the map

 

[daveisim]

Technically it's within 5 miles of CPS airport (class D), so it really is a mute point for hobbiest.

I see we both edited our post to to include the Class D which I initially didn't see ... So it's a moot point for everyone - which make one wonder why the restricted zone is needed in the first place unless you are following a CBO that does not have the 400' / 5 SM rule.

As for the park continuing across the river, I only see it on AirMap, no other source. The Wikipedia has this to say:

"In 1984, Congress authorized the enlargement of the Memorial to include up to 100 acres (40 ha) on the east bank of the Mississippi River in East St. Louis, Illinois. Funds were authorized to begin land acquisition, but Congress placed a moratorium upon NPS land acquisitions in fiscal year 1998. The moratorium continued into the 21st century, with expansion becoming less likely because of the construction of a riverboat gambling facility and related amenities."

But I guess it never happened yet somehow wound up on AitMap. But again a moot point.

Uh, hate to point it out, but the 1st picture you posted would also be in violation of 101 / 107 rules, no?

In the case of the police ... Don't we all know by now to land immediately and only then calmly discuss it? I would hope so.

 

[SunnyD]

Isn’t the FAA rule no more than 400’ anywhere anyway?

 

[daveisim]

Isn’t the FAA rule no more than 400’ anywhere anyway?

For Part 107 only , unless you get an airspace authorization / waiver. And there is one exception for this.

For hobby there is no written FAA rule regarding altitude ( I say this as there is "advise" to not go over 400', but it's only advise, not a rule. Big difference). However, to be hobby you have to follow Part 101 and in there is 101.41(b):

"(b) The aircraft is operated in accordance with a community-based set of safety guidelines and within the programming of a nationwide community-based organization;"

The nationwide CBO typically is (but not limited to) the AMA (Academy of Aeronautics) There is an AMA rule for no more than 400 AGL when within 5 SM of an airport.

 

[ianwood]

It's surface level to 400' AGL inside the new restricted zones, not 400' away from the places.

[Removed. Incorrect.]

 

[daveisim]

Incorrect. It is 400 feet lateral distance.

Can you show me where this is said & the text of your reasoning?

Here's what I have:

FAA Restricts Drones over Statue of Liberty, Other Landmarks

" The FAA and DOI have agreed to restrict drone flights up to 400 feet within the lateral boundaries of these sites ..."


Clicking on the FAA map for the Arch gives the popup:

Proponent DOI
Branch NATIONAL PARK SERVICE
Base
Facility Jefferson National Expansion Memorial
Airspace D
Reason National Security, or Intel Agency or National Defense
State MO
FAA_ID 20170518-DOI-Jefferson National Expansion Memorial
POC Scott M. Cluck Physical Security/Anti-Terrorism Specialist Law Enforcement Division National Park Service JNEM St. Louis, MO (314) 655-1738 Office (314) 518-0193 Cell [email protected]
Floor Surface
Ceiling 400' AGL
County St. Louis


The outline of the airspace is as I've show above in post #6. I don't see anything that says stay 400' away from the restricted area.

 

[ianwood]

Actually, my bad. I stand corrected. Just rechecked and it appears to have been changed. The original language said 400 horizontal feet. Looks like they have revised it to say up to 400ft altitude AGL and "lateral boundaries" which I assume means the the entire property. So you are correct.

 

[daveisim]

Thanks for double checking for me!

 

[mdowney58]

The very first day that this was announced, left me scratching my head as to whether it meant 400' laterally or vertically.